• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Trump Was Repeatedly Warned That Ukraine Conspiracy Theory Was ‘Completely Debunked’

CanadaJohn said:
Really? You're claiming that Vice President Biden is a liar? After all, it is he who bragged about doing just that.
Click to expand...

I am stating a fact, which is that they were not actively investigating Biden or Burisma at the time. The lie is yours, not Biden's.
 
Re: Trump Was Repeatedly Warned That Ukraine Conspiracy Theory Was ‘Completely Debunked’

Thoreau72 said:
Would those be the same "US Intelligence" men who brought us Curveball and WMD? :lamo
Click to expand...

sorry Thoreau, we were told that curveball was unreliable when Germany handed over his "intel". We even promised the Germans we wouldn't use it. this is from the CIA's former Europe Director

Question
"The German government was convinced that "Curveball" would not be used in the now famous presentation that then US Secretary of State Colin Powell gave in 2003 before the United Nations Security Council."

His response
I had assured my German friends that it wouldn't be in the speech. I really thought that I had put it to bed. I had warned the CIA deputy John McLaughlin that this case could be fabricated. The night before the speech, then CIA director George Tenet called me at home. I said: "Hey Boss, be careful with that German report. It's supposed to be taken out. There are a lot of problems with that." He said: "Yeah, yeah. Right. Dont worry about that."


SPIEGEL Interview with CIA's Former Europe Director: "We Probably Gave Powell the Wrong Speech" - SPIEGEL ONLINE

This fact had to be hidden from Powell because we needed someone with credibility to show the cartoons of mobile WMDs at the UN.

Powell Calls His U.N. Speech a Lasting Blot on His Record

Asked further how he felt upon learning that he had been misled about the accuracy of intelligence on which he relied, Mr. Powell said, "Terrible." He added that it was "devastating" to learn later that some intelligence agents knew the information he had was unreliable but did not speak up.
Powell Calls His U.N. Speech a Lasting Blot on His Record - The New York Times

This is just one of the several examples of dishonesty from the Bush admin to accomplish their secret Day 1 agenda to invade Iraq. so your obedient " wah wah (put name of person or group here) were wrong about this one thing so I don't have to believe them when convenient" post is a fail.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
I am stating a fact, which is that they were not actively investigating Biden or Burisma at the time. The lie is yours, not Biden's.
Click to expand...

And yet Shokin apparently claims he was investigating. We can agree someone is lying, and since Biden has a history of bending the truth, we can choose to disagree about who owns the lie.
 
iguanaman said:
LOL Yes the conspiracy theories are debunked. Just because Manafort got caught and jailed because of his dealings in Ukraine that does not mean Ukraine was "helping" the DNC. They helped U.S. law enforcement with evidence they had on Manafort. Evidence that Mueller corroborated as factual. Unless you consider the RNC to be an organized crime syndicate (perhaps they are?), they were helping them too as well as all Americans who care about the law.
Click to expand...

And Trump, in his constitutional capacity to "take care" that the laws are enforced, was looking for information that Ukraine might have on a current and present investigation.
 
Athanasius68 said:
Doesn't matter. Barr has no authority which Trump himself cannot exercise.
Click to expand...

The national interest in Trump's request?

You: "The DOJ investigation into the origins of the Trump/Russia conspiracy theory."
Me: There is no DoJ investigation as it relates to Ukraine and the Crowdstrike CT, or Joe Biden AFAIK.
You: Oh, OK

ConcernedPrestigiousLacewing-small.gif
 
Athanasius68 said:
And Trump, in his constitutional capacity to "take care" that the laws are enforced, was looking for information that Ukraine might have on a current and present investigation.
Click to expand...

Trump is head of the DOJ, any investigation of wrong doing needs to go through them. Telling a foreign leader what to investigate is not kosher and you know it. Especially when it is combined with the hold on Congressionally mandated military aid that is vital to our national security. This IS the corruption that needs to be investigated.
 
Mycroft said:
I haven't EVER fallen for an email scam in my life and I've been using them since I bought my first VIC-20 decades ago.

In any case, I didn't diminish the career of Bossert. I dismissed anything he has to say.
Click to expand...

You dismiss anything he has to say --- now. Did you dismiss anything he had to say when he was still inside the administration? Tell the truth now, did you? On what basis do you dismiss him now when you hadn't dismissed him previously?

And it's only a matter of luck, not skill or intelligence, that you haven't been scammed by a phishing email yet.
 
JasperL said:
The national interest in Trump's request?

You: "The DOJ investigation into the origins of the Trump/Russia conspiracy theory."
Me: There is no DoJ investigation as it relates to Ukraine and the Crowdstrike CT, or Joe Biden AFAIK.
You: Oh, OK

ConcernedPrestigiousLacewing-small.gif
Click to expand...

We don't know that.
Its been alleged that the Obama Admin pressured Ukraine to release the information on Manafort during the campaign.
 
CanadaJohn said:
And yet Shokin apparently claims he was investigating. We can agree someone is lying, and since Biden has a history of bending the truth, we can choose to disagree about who owns the lie.
Click to expand...

Yes let's take a disgraced prosecutors word over the Ukraine Govt. as well as Biden. You do know that Shokin was Yanukovych's man and was fired for not prosecuting oligarchs close to Putin.
 
iguanaman said:
Trump is head of the DOJ, any investigation of wrong doing needs to go through them. Telling a foreign leader what to investigate is not kosher and you know it. Especially when it is combined with the hold on Congressionally mandated military aid that is vital to our national security. This IS the corruption that needs to be investigated.
Click to expand...


The AG has no authority that the president himself or herself does not have. Yes-- its wiser to go through DOJ. It avoids these kinds of problems that Trump is facing.
 
Athanasius68 said:
The AG has no authority that the president himself or herself does not have. Yes-- its wiser to go through DOJ. It avoids these kinds of problems that Trump is facing.
Click to expand...

LOL Wiser? Ya think? The truth is that there is no evidence of what Trump asked for because it is a lie. Trump was asking Ukraine to manufacture evidence that does not exist. That is why he did not go through the DOJ.
 
HumblePi said:
You dismiss anything he has to say --- now. Did you dismiss anything he had to say when he was still inside the administration? Tell the truth now, did you? On what basis do you dismiss him now when you hadn't dismissed him previously?

And it's only a matter of luck, not skill or intelligence, that you haven't been scammed by a phishing email yet.
Click to expand...

I had no idea who he was until the OP started this thread.
 
Athanasius68 said:
The AG has no authority that the president himself or herself does not have. Yes-- its wiser to go through DOJ. It avoids these kinds of problems that Trump is facing.
Click to expand...

Right, in short it's the difference between engaging in the legitimate business of the United States VERSUS that of the campaign, or what we used to call "collusion" and what Mueller looked for and didn't find with regard to Russia.

My goodness, the standard really is becoming - 'if the president did it, it's legal.' And the necessary corollary - 'if it's technically legal it is, therefore, appropriate.'
 
iguanaman said:
LOL Wiser? Ya think? The truth is that there is no evidence of what Trump asked for because it is a lie. Trump was asking Ukraine to manufacture evidence that does not exist. That is why he did not go through the DOJ.
Click to expand...

We do have evidence.
We know for a fact that the information that resulted in Manafort being fired from the Trump campaign was released from Ukraine.
The theory has been that Ukraine did so as a result of pressure from the Obama Administration.
 
Athanasius68 said:
We don't know that.
Its been alleged that the Obama Admin pressured Ukraine to release the information on Manafort during the campaign.
Click to expand...

The passive voice - "It's been alleged" - and the incredibly broad "Obama admin" are doing yeoman's work for you there....
 
JasperL said:
Right, in short it's the difference between engaging in the legitimate business of the United States VERSUS that of the campaign, or what we used to call "collusion" and what Mueller looked for and didn't find with regard to Russia.

My goodness, the standard really is becoming - 'if the president did it, it's legal.' And the necessary corollary - 'if it's technically legal it is, therefore, appropriate.'
Click to expand...

If the argument wishes to be that it was inappropriate, that might be valid. However, the appropriateness of VP's actions, or lack thereof, becomes valid.
As well as investigating the actions of others in similar situations.

Unfortunately, people wish to argue its a crime which naturally gets responded to in kind.
 
JasperL said:
The passive voice - "It's been alleged" - and the incredibly broad "Obama admin" are doing yeoman's work for you there....
Click to expand...

The passive voice 'Its been alleged that the Trump campaign conspired with Russia to fix the 2016 election' seems to have been an allegation that launched a 1000 ships.
You might recall an OP or two about the subject over the past couple years.
The same response here as there-- Its a legitimate investigation being conducted by career and selfless employees of the DOJ ect ect
 
Athanasius68 said:
If the argument wishes to be that it was inappropriate, that might be valid. However, the appropriateness of VP's actions, or lack thereof, becomes valid.
As well as investigating the actions of others in similar situations.

Unfortunately, people wish to argue its a crime which naturally gets responded to in kind.
Click to expand...

Just so we are clear here, the standard you wish us to apply to Trump and going forward is that it's OK for the President to direct a foreign government to work with his personal attorney to investigate his political rival. This is the President acting in his official capacity effectively demanding this 'cooperation' with a foreign leader acting in his official capacity.

That's OK, right?

So if Biden calls up China and in a conversation about trade, how Biden would love to end the trade wars, asks China for a "favor, though" and it involves the Chinese government investigating the Trump or Kushner family activities in that country for wrongdoing, that's also OK, and especially because Joe is a private citizen!

That is where you want the bar set, on the ground, in the muck. Effectively, if a corrupt quid pro quo isn't explicitly mentioned in a recorded call, that means it's legal and why not? Go for it!!
 
Athanasius68 said:
We do have evidence.
We know for a fact that the information that resulted in Manafort being fired from the Trump campaign was released from Ukraine.
The theory has been that Ukraine did so as a result of pressure from the Obama Administration.
Click to expand...

Yes Ukraine provided evidence against Manafort that was corroborated by Mueller who put him in jail for tax evasion among other crimes. That means they helped rid us of a criminal. Isn't that something to applaud or do we now want criminals to go free if they worked for Trump? That is what it appears like to me. Cover up crimes by Trumps friends while manufacturing fake evidence of crimes about Trumps enemies. A real Banana Republic is what you want and it is what Trump tried to extort from Ukraine. Sorry but it is not going to fly and I am shocked that you would even propose such a thing.
 
Last edited:
Athanasius68 said:
The passive voice 'Its been alleged that the Trump campaign conspired with Russia to fix the 2016 election' seems to have been an allegation that launched a 1000 ships.
You might recall an OP or two about the subject over the past couple years.
The same response here as there-- Its a legitimate investigation being conducted by career and selfless employees of the DOJ ect ect
Click to expand...

LOL, OK, I've learned not to continue when you do this crap, but you just admitted there is no legitimate investigation with regard to Ukraine by the DoJ. That's why Rudy, who doesn't work for the U.S. government, is point, and not Barr or another rep from DoJ. You can't acknowledge a DoJ investigation does not exist in one post, then allege it does exist in another.
 
iguanaman said:
Yes Ukraine provided evidence against Manafort that was corroborated by Mueller who put him in jail for tax evasion among other crimes. That means they helped rid us of a criminal. Isn't that something to applaud or do we now want criminals to go free if they worked for Trump? That is what it appears like to me. Cover up crimes by Trumps friends while manufacturing fake evidence of crimes about Trumps enemies. A real Banana Republic is what you want and it is what Trump tried to extort from Ukraine. Sorry but it is not going to fly and I am shocked that you would even propose such a thing.
Click to expand...

Manafort was investigated, charged and plead guilty.
There was a process.

Trump never requested that Ukraine manufacture evidence against Biden.
As we learned over the past couple years, a candidate for president is not immune from investigation.
 
JasperL said:
Just so we are clear here, the standard you wish us to apply to Trump and going forward is that it's OK for the President to direct a foreign government to work with his personal attorney to investigate his political rival. This is the President acting in his official capacity effectively demanding this 'cooperation' with a foreign leader acting in his official capacity.

That's OK, right?

So if Biden calls up China and in a conversation about trade, how Biden would love to end the trade wars, asks China for a "favor, though" and it involves the Chinese government investigating the Trump or Kushner family activities in that country for wrongdoing, that's also OK, and especially because Joe is a private citizen!

That is where you want the bar set, on the ground, in the muck. Effectively, if a corrupt quid pro quo isn't explicitly mentioned in a recorded call, that means it's legal and why not? Go for it!!
Click to expand...

It was already in the muck-- where do you think the Obama investigation into the Trump campaign placed it?
 
JasperL said:
LOL, OK, I've learned not to continue when you do this crap, but you just admitted there is no legitimate investigation with regard to Ukraine by the DoJ. That's why Rudy, who doesn't work for the U.S. government, is point, and not Barr or another rep from DoJ. You can't acknowledge a DoJ investigation does not exist in one post, then allege it does exist in another.
Click to expand...

There is absolutely an investigation into the origins of the Trump/Russia investigation.
 
Athanasius68 said:
Manafort was investigated, charged and plead guilty.
There was a process.

Trump never requested that Ukraine manufacture evidence against Biden.
As we learned over the past couple years, a candidate for president is not immune from investigation.
Click to expand...

LOL Since Biden and his son were already investigated and cleared of wrongdoing by Ukraine what was Trump asking them to do then? He wanted a different result and was withholding aid until he got it. That was made clear in the transcript. That is asking for dirt on Biden and he did not care if it was real. Same goes for info on Manafort and the DNC server. He was asking them to make up evidence for looney debunked conspiracy theories. Ukraine to their great credit refused his request and Trump was punishing them for it. I would like to give the Ukraine President the Medal of Freedom instead. Wouldn't you agree?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom