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White House releases memo of Trump-Ukraine call

Oborosen said:
Because they didn't care, period.
But now they're trying to throw all of these allegations at Trump and unfortunately Biden's name sits on the other side of the tab.

The stuff about his family benefiting off his name has been public knowledge for a long time now. Even before Trump picked up the story.
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They're throwing legitimate allegations at Trump. It has nothing to do with not caring and everything to do with Trump is chasing a conspiracy theory. The only two things he asked the Ukraine President to investigate at all dealt with political rivals. Pretty sure that isnt the only cases of corruption in Ukraine or US. And he directed the Ukraine President to work with his personal lawyer during the investigation, bypassing any safeguards of being unbiased at all as well as affording the Bidens their rights, the DNC their rights. All while dangling aid money and buying new Javelins in front of said President.

Simply benefitting off your family name isnt illegal. All the Trump kids do it. Trump himself has been doing it since he was old enough to participate in the economy at all.

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roguenuke said:
They're throwing legitimate allegations at Trump. It has nothing to do with not caring and everything to do with Trump is chasing a conspiracy theory. The only two things he asked the Ukraine President to investigate at all dealt with political rivals. Pretty sure that isnt the only cases of corruption in Ukraine or US. And he directed the Ukraine President to work with his personal lawyer during the investigation, bypassing any safeguards of being unbiased at all as well as affording the Bidens their rights, the DNC their rights. All while dangling aid money and buying new Javelins in front of said President.

Simply benefitting off your family name isnt illegal. All the Trump kids do it. Trump himself has been doing it since he was old enough to participate in the economy at all.

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Yes, benefiting here is not the issue. Yet we have claims that Biden did so by throwing the weight of his own office around.

The only issue here is that we have people claiming those sources to be either true, or conspiracy theories. But unfortunately we have people who are wiling to accept information from sources that are just like those that are being used against Trump.
So they're willing to believe one story when it's against a man they don't like and they don't believe the one when it's against one that they do.

The least we can do is an investigation at this point, seeing as such things have been launched against politicians for much less reasons. We just got done sitting through three years of this Russiagate crap and now it appears that we're basically going to be hitting the theater for a sequel this time around.

Honestly, most of the voters (and I mean moderates in this case) are just done with all of this. They almost don't care at all for all this drama.
 
Oborosen said:
Yes, benefiting here is not the issue. Yet we have claims that Biden did so by throwing the weight of his own office around.

The only issue here is that we have people claiming those sources to be either true, or conspiracy theories. But unfortunately we have people who are wiling to accept information from sources that are just like those that are being used against Trump.
So they're willing to believe one story when it's against a man they don't like and they don't believe the one when it's against one that they do.

The least we can do is an investigation at this point, seeing as such things have been launched against politicians for much less reasons. We just got done sitting through three years of this Russiagate crap and now it appears that we're basically going to be hitting the theater for a sequel this time around.

Honestly, most of the voters (and I mean moderates in this case) are just done with all of this. They almost don't care at all for all this drama.
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Honestly. Methinks you work for the Internet Research Agency.
 
Oborosen said:
Yes, benefiting here is not the issue. Yet we have claims that Biden did so by throwing the weight of his own office around.

The only issue here is that we have people claiming those sources to be either true, or conspiracy theories. But unfortunately we have people who are wiling to accept information from sources that are just like those that are being used against Trump.
So they're willing to believe one story when it's against a man they don't like and they don't believe the one when it's against one that they do.

The least we can do is an investigation at this point, seeing as such things have been launched against politicians for much less reasons. We just got done sitting through three years of this Russiagate crap and now it appears that we're basically going to be hitting the theater for a sequel this time around.

Honestly, most of the voters (and I mean moderates in this case) are just done with all of this. They almost don't care at all for all this drama.
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No. You have conspiracy theories that link Biden doing any action within the country of Ukraine with his son working there. There is no evidence of any of the vague accusations that Trump or Guiliani are claiming against the Bidens. (Please note how very vague those accusations are.)

The sources of those giving information against the Bidens are not "just like those" that have information being used against Trump. Hell some of the information being used against Trump is coming directly from Trump himself. Other information is coming from highly respected sources who are simply telling what they know. While Guiliani may have once been respectable, since then he has been chasing down conspiracy theories to help the President get reelected. There is no credibility to what he is putting out. And what he is putting out has been fact checked and shown as wrong or too vague to even guess what are implying (beyond "the Bidens did something wrong/illegal").

IF there is actual evidence against the Bidens doing something wrong, then we should investigate. We should not investigate conspiracy theories based on

Most moderates are tired of Trump and his supporters protecting him. That is where the Drama is. Trump, acting like a child about pretty much everything, doing everything in his power to divide this country so far it would take some seriously messed up event to get us back together. It isn't the Dems treating Republicans like their enemy. It is Trump specifically doing this to Dems, any and all, and pretty much anyone else who simply doesn't approve of the job he is doing. He has demonstrated this time and again.
 
roguenuke said:
No. You have conspiracy theories that link Biden doing any action within the country of Ukraine with his son working there. There is no evidence of any of the vague accusations that Trump or Guiliani are claiming against the Bidens. (Please note how very vague those accusations are.)

The sources of those giving information against the Bidens are not "just like those" that have information being used against Trump. Hell some of the information being used against Trump is coming directly from Trump himself. Other information is coming from highly respected sources who are simply telling what they know. While Guiliani may have once been respectable, since then he has been chasing down conspiracy theories to help the President get reelected. There is no credibility to what he is putting out. And what he is putting out has been fact checked and shown as wrong or too vague to even guess what are implying (beyond "the Bidens did something wrong/illegal").

IF there is actual evidence against the Bidens doing something wrong, then we should investigate. We should not investigate conspiracy theories based on

Most moderates are tired of Trump and his supporters protecting him. That is where the Drama is. Trump, acting like a child about pretty much everything, doing everything in his power to divide this country so far it would take some seriously messed up event to get us back together. It isn't the Dems treating Republicans like their enemy. It is Trump specifically doing this to Dems, any and all, and pretty much anyone else who simply doesn't approve of the job he is doing. He has demonstrated this time and again.
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So this is still just a term of he said she said and the only reason you're going to trust one source. Is because they are "more trust worthy" than the other, even though the other source contains Ukrainian MPs, and signed information... while the other contains second hand knowledge and information from anonymous sources.

That is all still, despite the fact that no ones actually shown just "how" Trump has broken any rule here, or at the very least acted against the faith of the American people.
 
Oborosen said:
So this is still just a term of he said she said and the only reason you're going to trust one source. Is because they are "more trust worthy" than the other, even though the other source contains Ukrainian MPs, and signed information... while the other contains second hand knowledge and information from anonymous sources.

That is all still, despite the fact that no ones actually shown just "how" Trump has broken any rule here, or at the very least acted against the faith of the American people.
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Trumps very own words to the Ukraine President and to China are not a case of "he said, she said".

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roguenuke said:
Trumps very own words to the Ukraine President and to China are not a case of "he said, she said".

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Then going by that, we have no reason to impeach him. No breach of trust, no break in his oath of office.
 
Oborosen said:
Then going by that, we have no reason to impeach him. No breach of trust, no break in his oath of office.
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Only to those who are too biased in his favor is there no reason to investigate that as a breach of public trust, an abuse of the office of the President for personal gain. That was an obvious quid pro quo situation to extract a personal politically based favor from a foreign government.

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roguenuke said:
Only to those who are too biased in his favor is there no reason to investigate that as a breach of public trust, an abuse of the office of the President for personal gain. That was an obvious quid pro quo situation to extract a personal politically based favor from a foreign government.

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Going from the released transcript no, no it was not.

You can make that assumption all you like, which is your right to do so. But looking at this logically, one cannot just say that there was a form of quid pro quo. When there was in fact, no such thing in the actual conversation. Schiff even had to lie about the conversation to make it sound as such.

I for one cannot make such a call, with what is being presented.
 
Oborosen said:
Going from the released transcript no, no it was not.

You can make that assumption all you like, which is your right to do so. But looking at this logically, one cannot just say that there was a form of quid pro quo. When there was in fact, no such thing in the actual conversation. Schiff even had to lie about the conversation to make it sound as such.

I for one cannot make such a call, with what is being presented.
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I read that transcript just fine and it requests the President of Ukraine to look into two things, one dealing with his most likely Presidential rival in the upcoming election (and his son), and the other is his Partys rival, who he feels/claims wrongly went after him in the investigation into Russia interfering with our elections. These are both based on conspiracy theories and have no benefit for the US, only for Trump and his campaign and ego. And he requested this as a favor right after it was mentioned that they wanted to buy Javelins. The fact that he was also refusing to release aid money or even meet with that President, shows that an expectation was there and the investigation is showing more and more that the expectation was for an investigation into only two things, those two things mentioned in the phone call.

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roguenuke said:
I read that transcript just fine and it requests the President of Ukraine to look into two things, one dealing with his most likely Presidential rival in the upcoming election (and his son), and the other is his Partys rival, who he feels/claims wrongly went after him in the investigation into Russia interfering with our elections. These are both based on conspiracy theories and have no benefit for the US, only for Trump and his campaign and ego. And he requested this as a favor right after it was mentioned that they wanted to buy Javelins. The fact that he was also refusing to release aid money or even meet with that President, shows that an expectation was there and the investigation is showing more and more that the expectation was for an investigation into only two things, those two things mentioned in the phone call.

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So now you're just jumping into assumption?

Because it was actually cloudstrike that was spoken about as to the investigation and even Biden's name was mentioned almost in passing. Then again, the investigation was to see of possible corruption and not dig up dirt on political opponents.
 
Oborosen said:
So now you're just jumping into assumption?

Because it was actually cloudstrike that was spoken about as to the investigation and even Biden's name was mentioned almost in passing. Then again, the investigation was to see of possible corruption and not dig up dirt on political opponents.
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And Cloudstrike is part of a rightwing conspiracy theory about DNC server(s), hence him mentioning a server in relation to that one (so still about investigating the DNC). And there is no evidence of any sort of corruption involving the Bidens, again just a rightwing conspiracy theory that is being peddled by Guiliani. So yes, what I said is correct. Just because Trump was being a little bit vague doesnt mean people can't figure it out. Any real request for then to fight corruption would have been more about corruption in general in their country, with their people, not things that only relate to people whom Trump views as "the enemy".

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roguenuke said:
And Cloudstrike is part of a rightwing conspiracy theory about DNC server(s), hence him mentioning a server in relation to that one (so still about investigating the DNC). And there is no evidence of any sort of corruption involving the Bidens, again just a rightwing conspiracy theory that is being peddled by Guiliani. So yes, what I said is correct. Just because Trump was being a little bit vague doesnt mean people can't figure it out. Any real request for then to fight corruption would have been more about corruption in general in their country, with their people, not things that only relate to people whom Trump views as "the enemy".

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Which still means you're following with the barest of assumptions and even if you want to claim that it's a right wing conspiracy, that doesn't make it any less valid when we have people putting information and testimony forward that says otherwise.

Even if that is the case, just because Biden is running for president, does not mean he is protected from whatever scrutiny comes his way, or any chance of some sort of investigation for that matter.

His being in this matter with his son so close to him and him being seeing on TV discussing his own interactions with the Ukrainian government. Not to mention possibly lying about his own involvement with his own sons part in this. Is more than enough reason to just look into it.

I could just as easily dismiss this idiotic goose chase as a left wing conspiracy with how the democrats are treating this. Actually holding closed meetings to gather evidence and kicking out choice people from sitting in on them.

How about this, you get your investigation. But the right gets their investigation of Biden's business in this as well.
All of that just seems as fair a compromise as any.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
And going from the actual testimony of those who were privy to the actual details, yes, yes it was.
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So still sitting on a no at this point. Seeing as none of that has actually shown to be shown to be true at this point.

Hell, I could just use the same tactic that the left does and call it some sort of left wing spin. But I really don't care for that little game.
 
Oborosen said:
So still sitting on a no at this point. Seeing as none of that has actually shown to be shown to be true at this point.

Hell, I could just use the same tactic that the left does and call it some sort of left wing spin. But I really don't care for that little game.
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People do have different opinions. As long as those opinions are based on the same facts I don't have any real problem with that.

I guess that we'll both have to wait and see whose opinion comes closest to **T*H*E** **T*R*U*T*H** (whatever that means).
 
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