• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Growing number of dairy farmers want U.S. to regulate milk supply

TU Curmudgeon

TU Curmudgeon

B.A. (Sarc), LLb. (Lex Sarcasus), PhD (Sarc.)
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 7, 2018
Messages
62,525
Reaction score
19,316
Location
Lower Mainland of BC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
From United Press International

Growing number of dairy farmers want U.S. to regulate milk supply
​

EVANSVILLE, Ind., Sept. 20 (UPI) -- A growing number of dairy farmers across the country want the federal government to regulate the volume of milk their industry produces annually.

Their reason is simple: America's dairy farms produce more milk than the market needs.

The oversupply has driven milk prices so low that the average farm is losing money. Thousands of dairies have gone out of business in the last five years, and more continue to fail.

Yet the United States' milk supply continues to eclipse demand -- and that does not appear to be changing. Production increases every year, rising by about 1 percent in 2018, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. In August, it was up about 0.4 percent over the same month last year.

COMMENT:-

PLEASE NOTE - Chuckles over the US dairy industry starting to demand the same sort of a system as the Canadian dairy industry uses and which the US government keeps claiming is "an unfair system to restrain trade" are being suppressed with difficulty.

<SARC>The OBVIOUS solution to this problem is to let the market forces prevail and for those inefficient producers to suffer the same fate as any other financially unsuccessful business. Besides, if the US dairy industry is producing more milk than it can sell at $X per gallon, then it should simply reduce the price to $X-y per gallon and continue reducing the price until the demand matches the supply - right?</SARC>​
 
Supply and demand is a beautiful thing. Everybody go out and get some milk. Builds strong bones.
 
Disastrous idea that will end up causing even more problems than seeing a percentage of farmers go under because supply is greater than demand.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
The OBVIOUS solution to this problem is to let the market forces prevail and for those inefficient producers to suffer the same fate as any other financially unsuccessful business.
Click to expand...

Sure, and I'm not necessarily against that. The thing to keep in mind is that those "inefficient producers" are family farmers who are being decimated by larger factory farms. Agriculture and farming of this kind is one of the few industries that can't really be shipped over seas easily so it would be nice to keep dairy farming as a career that an honest person can make a living doing.

There's also the animal cruelty aspect of it. The way some of these factory farms treat their animals is absolutely horrible. Less milk produced by fewer cows who actually have a pasture they can roam free in would likely be worth the extra 50 cents on a gallon of milk to most Americans.
 
MrWonka said:
Sure, and I'm not necessarily against that. The thing to keep in mind is that those "inefficient producers" are family farmers who are being decimated by larger factory farms.
Click to expand...

It might well be the case that those family farmers simply cannot compete with the efficient "factory farms".

Other than, we need their votes to make sure that we get reelected, what reason is there for subsidizing inefficient producers?

MrWonka said:
Agriculture and farming of this kind is one of the few industries that can't really be shipped over seas easily so it would be nice to keep dairy farming as a career that an honest person can make a living doing.
Click to expand...

They can only make a living doing something if they can get efficient enough to make a profit at it. If they are getting "government money" so that they can afford to stay in business, then that is a subsidy and the US government is totally opposed to any subsidies at all. (This is why those payments of "government money" that enable inefficient producers to stay in business [and voting for the people who approve the payments] get called anything but "subsidies".)

MrWonka said:
There's also the animal cruelty aspect of it. The way some of these factory farms treat their animals is absolutely horrible. Less milk produced by fewer cows who actually have a pasture they can roam free in would likely be worth the extra 50 cents on a gallon of milk to most Americans.
Click to expand...

It should make a difference, but it doesn't.
 
It does seem like some kind of mechanism to share the risk in the market would actually benefit consumers by keeping the number of suppliers high. The insurance option looked less invasive than production caps, but then the government is left on the hook if the market shifts too drastically.

The options appear to be: eventual milk monopolies or near monopolies, government backed insurance (along with government spending inherent in that risk), or regulation of supply. Can't say any of those options look too rosy.
 
TobyOne said:
Supply and demand is a beautiful thing. Everybody go out and get some milk. Builds strong bones.
Click to expand...

Problem is the government inflates milk prices regardless of supply so it won't save you any money.
 
TobyOne said:
Supply and demand is a beautiful thing. Everybody go out and get some milk. Builds strong bones.
Click to expand...

As the US dairy market continues to be decimated and the majority of the milk at your local supermarket is imported from overseas you can remind yourself how amazing it is to be free of any regulations.

Also, US dairy is heavily subsidized by the government.

MrWonka said:
Sure, and I'm not necessarily against that. The thing to keep in mind is that those "inefficient producers" are family farmers who are being decimated by larger factory farms. Agriculture and farming of this kind is one of the few industries that can't really be shipped over seas easily so it would be nice to keep dairy farming as a career that an honest person can make a living doing.

There's also the animal cruelty aspect of it. The way some of these factory farms treat their animals is absolutely horrible. Less milk produced by fewer cows who actually have a pasture they can roam free in would likely be worth the extra 50 cents on a gallon of milk to most Americans.
Click to expand...

I go out of my way to buy my milk in Germany from a Bavarian brand that is a conglomerate of hundreds of private, family dairy farmers and from free range cows. It costs 10-20 cents more per liter but I can see my milk producers out having a good time as I blaze by on the Autobahn.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From United Press International

Growing number of dairy farmers want U.S. to regulate milk supply
​

EVANSVILLE, Ind., Sept. 20 (UPI) -- A growing number of dairy farmers across the country want the federal government to regulate the volume of milk their industry produces annually.

Their reason is simple: America's dairy farms produce more milk than the market needs.

The oversupply has driven milk prices so low that the average farm is losing money. Thousands of dairies have gone out of business in the last five years, and more continue to fail.

Yet the United States' milk supply continues to eclipse demand -- and that does not appear to be changing. Production increases every year, rising by about 1 percent in 2018, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. In August, it was up about 0.4 percent over the same month last year.

COMMENT:-

PLEASE NOTE - Chuckles over the US dairy industry starting to demand the same sort of a system as the Canadian dairy industry uses and which the US government keeps claiming is "an unfair system to restrain trade" are being suppressed with difficulty.

<SARC>The OBVIOUS solution to this problem is to let the market forces prevail and for those inefficient producers to suffer the same fate as any other financially unsuccessful business. Besides, if the US dairy industry is producing more milk than it can sell at $X per gallon, then it should simply reduce the price to $X-y per gallon and continue reducing the price until the demand matches the supply - right?</SARC>​
Click to expand...

I'm sure whomever the DNC select as their nominee will be all into this idea...except Yang, of course. He wants to increase the cost of beef to get people to eat less of it. He'll probably do the same with milk.
 
Those Millennials and their almond milk!

*Shakes fist at the sky*
 
Bad things happen when you try to oppose market forces. There are usually unintended consequences. Don't **** with the market.

Drawdown said:
Problem is the government inflates milk prices regardless of supply so it won't save you any money.
Click to expand...
 
OrphanSlug said:
Disastrous idea that will end up causing even more problems than seeing a percentage of farmers go under because supply is greater than demand.
Click to expand...

The idea that certain jobs (or uses of land) are sacred (super patriotic?) and thus should not be subject to supply and demand is nuts. Otherwise, we would still be paying folks not to produce buggy whips, propping up full service gas stations (like Oregon?) and preventing VHS/Betamax rental outlets from closing. Tell them to learn to code or to empty bed pans in nursing homes just like the coal miners.
 
TobyOne said:
Bad things happen when you try to oppose market forces. There are usually unintended consequences. Don't **** with the market.
Click to expand...

It is just how the milk programs work. The government guarantees a price to all providers by region so the guy with 50 cows can compete with the guy who has 1500 milkers and then sets the price to processors for that milk. Good for the guy with 50 cows. Bad for the guy with 1500. The public gets a guaranteed supply of milk though by insuring there are sufficient suppliers.
 
“Milk production is happening in an unsustainable way,” said Lynne McBride, executive director of the California Dairy Campaign, which advocates for federal dairy supply management. “Our members think we need a change, or we’ll see more dairies go out of business.”

The organization is circulating a petition asking Congress to control the milk supply. Hundreds of farmers have signed it, McBride said.

But the movement faces steep opposition. The very concept of government supply regulation flies in the face of the free-market principles on which the American economy is rooted, industry leaders said.

“Supply management programs generate a lot of criticism … in general because government is making a massive invasion into the free market,” said Alan Bjerga, a spokesman for the National Milk Producers Federation.

And though groups like the California Dairy Campaign and the National Farmers Union loudly support supply management, most dairy farmers are quietly against it, Bjerga said.

Shortly before negotiations began on the 2018 Farm Bill, the National Milk Producers Federation, which represents the majority of America’s dairy farms, asked its members if they wanted to push for supply management.

“It didn’t have strong support,” Bjerga said.

More recently, the American Farm Bureau Federation this year sent out a similar survey to its members. The majority also voted against it.

The reasons for opposing supply management are diverse. Despite the depressed prices, some dairy operations are making good profits, said Charles Nicholson, a professor of applied economics and management at Cornell University. Those dairies do not want their production restricted. And even among farmers who are losing money, many are opposed in principle.
Click to expand...

Growing number of dairy farmers want U.S. to regulate milk supply | Gephardt Daily

I'm for whatever the majority of farmers want. They currently do not want government regulation.
Who can blame them? The gov. hasn't proved that they can even manage Obamacare costs... Remember when Obama promised that our health insurance premiums would go down $2500 a year?

How'd that work out for us? :liar
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
It might well be the case that those family farmers simply cannot compete with the efficient "factory farms".

Other than, we need their votes to make sure that we get reelected, what reason is there for subsidizing inefficient producers?
Click to expand...
You use this word "inefficient." In many cases what can make something in the corporate world more "efficient" is to cut corners that are morally and ethically questionable. Consumers will still buy the product because they don't see how the sausage is made, but I think the American people have a right to have some confidence that when they buy a product in a store they're not funding animal cruelty or destroying lives.

TU Curmudgeon said:
It should make a difference, but it doesn't.
Click to expand...
It should, and there's no reason it can't.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From United Press International

Growing number of dairy farmers want U.S. to regulate milk supply
​

EVANSVILLE, Ind., Sept. 20 (UPI) -- A growing number of dairy farmers across the country want the federal government to regulate the volume of milk their industry produces annually.

Their reason is simple: America's dairy farms produce more milk than the market needs.

The oversupply has driven milk prices so low that the average farm is losing money. Thousands of dairies have gone out of business in the last five years, and more continue to fail.

Yet the United States' milk supply continues to eclipse demand -- and that does not appear to be changing. Production increases every year, rising by about 1 percent in 2018, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. In August, it was up about 0.4 percent over the same month last year.

COMMENT:-

PLEASE NOTE - Chuckles over the US dairy industry starting to demand the same sort of a system as the Canadian dairy industry uses and which the US government keeps claiming is "an unfair system to restrain trade" are being suppressed with difficulty.

<SARC>The OBVIOUS solution to this problem is to let the market forces prevail and for those inefficient producers to suffer the same fate as any other financially unsuccessful business. Besides, if the US dairy industry is producing more milk than it can sell at $X per gallon, then it should simply reduce the price to $X-y per gallon and continue reducing the price until the demand matches the supply - right?</SARC>​
Click to expand...

What an udderly interesting idea... asking a government that is ideologically opposed to regulations to add regulations to help an industry. But let's take stock in this idea: I thought the free-market was supposed to regulate supply and demand? The idea if the price goes too low, they stop producing and the supply then goes down and prices rise.

I think the problem is that owning a farm is more or less permanent. The farmers have a steak in the venture. They can't leave the business.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From United Press International

Growing number of dairy farmers want U.S. to regulate milk supply
​

EVANSVILLE, Ind., Sept. 20 (UPI) -- A growing number of dairy farmers across the country want the federal government to regulate the volume of milk their industry produces annually.

Their reason is simple: America's dairy farms produce more milk than the market needs.

The oversupply has driven milk prices so low that the average farm is losing money. Thousands of dairies have gone out of business in the last five years, and more continue to fail.

Yet the United States' milk supply continues to eclipse demand -- and that does not appear to be changing. Production increases every year, rising by about 1 percent in 2018, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. In August, it was up about 0.4 percent over the same month last year.

COMMENT:-

PLEASE NOTE - Chuckles over the US dairy industry starting to demand the same sort of a system as the Canadian dairy industry uses and which the US government keeps claiming is "an unfair system to restrain trade" are being suppressed with difficulty.

<SARC>The OBVIOUS solution to this problem is to let the market forces prevail and for those inefficient producers to suffer the same fate as any other financially unsuccessful business. Besides, if the US dairy industry is producing more milk than it can sell at $X per gallon, then it should simply reduce the price to $X-y per gallon and continue reducing the price until the demand matches the supply - right?</SARC>​
Click to expand...

So they want a handout, oops a subsidy like the soy bean farmers.
 
Drawdown said:
Problem is the government inflates milk prices regardless of supply so it won't save you any money.
Click to expand...

You are wrong!

The government does NOT "inflate milk prices", what the government does is "provide price supports" in furtherance of its goal to "preserve family farms" which are "the backbone of America".

The fact that the "price supports" are at such a level that they enable inefficient and non-competitive farmers to stay in business has the "completely unplanned for" effect of boosting the profits of "factory farms", is simply an "unintended consequence" of America's need to "preserve family farms". (Please totally ignore the fact that those family farms have a lot of voters who might be tempted NOT to reelect their current Senators and/or Representatives if those "price supports" vanished.)
 
RabidAlpaca said:
As the US dairy market continues to be decimated and the majority of the milk at your local supermarket is imported from overseas you can remind yourself how amazing it is to be free of any regulations.
Click to expand...

That's a good point, but I do have a question arising from it.


If the current US dairy industry is capable of providing (let's say) 115% of the total US milk market demand, what percentage of the US milk market demand would the US dairy industry be capable of supplying if it were reduced by (let's say) 10%?
​

(A reduction of 10% would be a "decimation".)

RabidAlpaca said:
Also, US dairy is heavily subsidized by the government.
Click to expand...

The US government is on record as being 100%, unalterably, adamantly, opposed to ANY government subsidizing anything. Only the unsophisticated are unable to see the difference between the US government's "farm price supports" (whereby the US government pays Patriotic American farmers money to produce product that they cannot produce economically so that those products can be sold in competition with the same product that comes from FOREIGN countries) and those ILLEGAL "farm subsidies" (whereby FOREIGN governments pay FOREIGN farmers money to produce product that they cannot produce economically so that those FOREIGN products can be sole in competition with the same product that comes from Patriotic American farmers).

[The above form of "Internet Rebuttal" has been specifically and officially approved and endorsed by "Devoted Online Lovers of Trump" Inc. (a non-partisan, independent, research and analysis organization exempt from federal taxation that is dedicated to bringing you the true truth and not the false truth that anyone who doesn't believe 100% of what Donald Trump says tries to tell you the so-called "facts" are), "Pro-Life United Gun Enthusiasts and Manufacturers for Jesus", and “The ‘First Amendment Rights Trust’ Foundation”.]
 
Last edited:
Drawdown said:
It is just how the milk programs work. The government guarantees a price to all providers by region so the guy with 50 cows can compete with the guy who has 1500 milkers and then sets the price to processors for that milk. Good for the guy with 50 cows. Bad for the guy with 1500.
Click to expand...

Actually it isn't. (Please bear in mind that I'm making these numbers up, and have no idea what the REAL numbers are, just to illustrate a point.)

If the cost of production[sup][1][/sup] for (our "base line") "Farmer 50" has to spend $10.00 to produce 1,000 units of milk, but can only sell it for $8.00 per hundred units. Then the government sets the "price support level" at $2.00 per 1,000 units. This is the amount paid to ALL milk producers. However, when we look at "Farmer 1,500" we find that their cost of production[sup][2][/sup] is only $7.50 per 1,000 units.

That means that "Farmer 50" receives just enough to cover their cost of production[sup][1][/sup] while "Farmer 1,500" receives $2.50 per 1,000 units MORE than their cost of production[sup][2][/sup].

Drawdown said:
The public gets a guaranteed supply of milk though by insuring there are sufficient suppliers.
Click to expand...

Actually what it does mean is that the public gets to pay for its milk in two lumps (one of which the public doesn't see when it buys its milk at the local supermarket).

NOTES

[sup][1][/sup] - In this case the "cost of production" includes the personal and family expenses of "Farmer 50".

[sup][2][/sup] - In this case the "cost of production" includes the corporate expenses paid out by "Farmer 1,500".
 
trixare4kids said:
Growing number of dairy farmers want U.S. to regulate milk supply | Gephardt Daily

I'm for whatever the majority of farmers want. They currently do not want government regulation.
Who can blame them? The gov. hasn't proved that they can even manage Obamacare costs... Remember when Obama promised that our health insurance premiums would go down $2500 a year?

How'd that work out for us? :liar
Click to expand...

Remember when Mr. Trump promised to "build the wall" and that "Mexico will pay for it"? How'd that work out?
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From United Press International

Growing number of dairy farmers want U.S. to regulate milk supply
​

EVANSVILLE, Ind., Sept. 20 (UPI) -- A growing number of dairy farmers across the country want the federal government to regulate the volume of milk their industry produces annually.

Their reason is simple: America's dairy farms produce more milk than the market needs.

The oversupply has driven milk prices so low that the average farm is losing money. Thousands of dairies have gone out of business in the last five years, and more continue to fail.

Yet the United States' milk supply continues to eclipse demand -- and that does not appear to be changing. Production increases every year, rising by about 1 percent in 2018, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. In August, it was up about 0.4 percent over the same month last year.

COMMENT:-

PLEASE NOTE - Chuckles over the US dairy industry starting to demand the same sort of a system as the Canadian dairy industry uses and which the US government keeps claiming is "an unfair system to restrain trade" are being suppressed with difficulty.

<SARC>The OBVIOUS solution to this problem is to let the market forces prevail and for those inefficient producers to suffer the same fate as any other financially unsuccessful business. Besides, if the US dairy industry is producing more milk than it can sell at $X per gallon, then it should simply reduce the price to $X-y per gallon and continue reducing the price until the demand matches the supply - right?</SARC>​
Click to expand...

More almonds and coconuts please.
 
MrWonka said:
You use this word "inefficient." In many cases what can make something in the corporate world more "efficient" is to cut corners that are morally and ethically questionable.
Click to expand...

For some reason you appear to think that, for the VAST majority (based on total profits obtained) "ethical" and "moral" have something to do with "legal". That simply isn't the way that the system works. As long as it is "legal" and does NOT reduce profits, it doesn't matter (to the corporation) if a corporate action is completely unethical or immoral.

Mr. Mellon once told Congress "You can't mine coal without machine guns." and that, to a large extent, still applies.

MrWonka said:
Consumers will still buy the product because they don't see how the sausage is made, but I think the American people have a right to have some confidence that when they buy a product in a store they're not funding animal cruelty or destroying lives.
Click to expand...

Since there is no "constitutional right" to "know that the consumer is not funding animal cruelty or destroying lives", Americans do NOT have any such "right". They may want one, but they don't have one.

MrWonka said:
It should, and there's no reason it can't.
Click to expand...

Of course there is no reason why it can't. Except, of course, for the fact that those who control the economy don't have any interest in seeing it happen and won't have any such interest until such time as the lack of it happening has an adverse effect on profits.
 
MTAtech said:
What an udderly interesting idea... asking a government that is ideologically opposed to regulations to add regulations to help an industry. But let's take stock in this idea: I thought the free-market was supposed to regulate supply and demand? The idea if the price goes too low, they stop producing and the supply then goes down and prices rise.

I think the problem is that owning a farm is more or less permanent. The farmers have a steak in the venture. They can't leave the business.
Click to expand...

Sure they can leave the business. All they have to do is to sell their farms. Of course having a bunch of farmers all trying to sell their farms at the same time might have a slightly depressing effect on how much the farmers would be able to sell their farms for. (But that's the way that "supply and demand" works, isn't it?)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom