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CNBC: US appeals court rules against Trump in foreign payments case

MTAtech

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[h=1]US appeals court rules against Trump in foreign payments case[/h]
A U.S. federal appeals court on Friday revived a lawsuit claiming President Donald Trump violated the U.S. Constitution by profiting from foreign and domestic officials who patronized his hotels and restaurants, adding to the corruption claims against Trump.

The New York-based 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals set aside a lower court ruling that had thrown out the case because the people who sued could not prove they were harmed by Trump’s actions and his role as president.


This is the actual decision (pdf): https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6405431/9-13-19-CREW-2nd-Circuit.pdf

The court Vacated and Remanded the previous decision.

snippet:
Complaint cites statements by the President implicitly soliciting the patronage of government officials and apparently acknowledging that, in making governmental decisions, he favors governments that patronize his businesses.
 

*sigh*
another case that will be thrown out by the SCOTUS because it has to take them for actual judges to obey the law.

1. Trump is not profiting. his hotel in washingon cuts a check of all profits to the government.
this is a 5 minute google search.

Trump Org reports $191,000 profit from foreign governments, cuts check to Treasury - ABC News

2. Trump does not run the business nor is there any indication that he is showing favoritism or giving these governments any kind of special treatment.
3. There is nothing that says that the president is not allowed to run a business and make money off of it.
4. there is no giving off rooms away as a gift. nor are the people there stopped from staying elsewhere in washington.

sounds like sour grapes to me and yet another court that doesn't know the law.
then again it is NY.

this will go to the SCOTUS and they will have to shut it down yet again.
how hard is it for these judges to follow the law instead of just making **** up that doesn't exist.
 
*sigh*
another case that will be thrown out by the SCOTUS because it has to take them for actual judges to obey the law.

1. Trump is not profiting. his hotel in washingon cuts a check of all profits to the government.
this is a 5 minute google search.

Trump Org reports $191,000 profit from foreign governments, cuts check to Treasury - ABC News

2. Trump does not run the business nor is there any indication that he is showing favoritism or giving these governments any kind of special treatment.
3. There is nothing that says that the president is not allowed to run a business and make money off of it.
4. there is no giving off rooms away as a gift. nor are the people there stopped from staying elsewhere in washington.

sounds like sour grapes to me and yet another court that doesn't know the law.
then again it is NY.

this will go to the SCOTUS and they will have to shut it down yet again.
how hard is it for these judges to follow the law instead of just making **** up that doesn't exist.

Whether they 'cut a check' to the US Government or not, the emoluments clause is a clause in the Constitution that prohibits any federal officeholder – including the president – from accepting any payment or benefit from a state or foreign government without permission from Congress.
 
*sigh*
another case that will be thrown out by the SCOTUS because it has to take them for actual judges to obey the law.

1. Trump is not profiting. his hotel in washingon cuts a check of all profits to the government.
this is a 5 minute google search.

Trump Org reports $191,000 profit from foreign governments, cuts check to Treasury - ABC News

2. Trump does not run the business nor is there any indication that he is showing favoritism or giving these governments any kind of special treatment.
3. There is nothing that says that the president is not allowed to run a business and make money off of it.
4. there is no giving off rooms away as a gift. nor are the people there stopped from staying elsewhere in washington.

sounds like sour grapes to me and yet another court that doesn't know the law.
then again it is NY.

this will go to the SCOTUS and they will have to shut it down yet again.
how hard is it for these judges to follow the law instead of just making **** up that doesn't exist.
Unlike you, I will not predict what the SCOTUS does.

The issue of whether Trump profits is twofold:

1) While he says that he gives the profits away, doesn't mean it is true. $191,000 seems rather low. The constitution doesn't say "as long as there is no profits."
2) The fact that Trump is on record of implicitly soliciting the patronage of government officials and apparently acknowledging that, in making governmental decisions, he favors governments that patronize his businesses, is exactly what the emoluments clause was designed to prevent -- a president making U.S. government decisions based not on the merits but on who, and which governments, are patronizing his businesses.

A third issue is why does Spanky have a right to the Justice Department defending him in this case?
 
Whether they 'cut a check' to the US Government or not, the emoluments clause is a clause in the Constitution that prohibits any federal officeholder – including the president – from accepting any payment or benefit from a state or foreign government without permission from Congress.

actually it says nothing of the kind. trump is not receiving anything. the the hotel is and the hotels are run by his sons not trump.
so there is no violation of anything.

let me know when you finally understand facts instead of lies.
 
Unlike you, I will not predict what the SCOTUS does.

The issue of whether Trump profits is twofold:

1) While he says that he gives the profits away, doesn't mean it is true. $191,000 seems rather low. The constitution doesn't say "as long as there is no profits."
2) The fact that Trump is on record of implicitly soliciting the patronage of government officials and apparently acknowledging that, in making governmental decisions, he favors governments that patronize his businesses, is exactly what the emoluments clause was designed to prevent -- a president making U.S. government decisions based not on the merits but on who, and which governments, are patronizing his businesses.

A third issue is why does Spanky have a right to the Justice Department defending him in this case?

The DOJ is the defense for the executive office that is why.
 
actually it says nothing of the kind. trump is not receiving anything. the the hotel is and the hotels are run by his sons not trump.
so there is no violation of anything.

let me know when you finally understand facts instead of lies.
Let us know when YOU finally understand facts instead of lies. Your defense was destroyed in the court document.

Page 4
5 The complaint alleges that President Trump, operating through
6 corporations, limited‐liability companies, limited partnerships, and other
7 business structures, is effectively the sole owner of restaurants, hotels, and
8 event spaces, which are patronized by foreign and domestic government
9 clientele. The President has announced that, since assuming office, he has
10 turned over day‐to‐day management of his business empire to his children
11 and established a trust to hold his business assets.2 However, he maintains
12 sole ownership, receives business updates at least quarterly,3 and has the
13 ability to obtain distributions from the trust at any time.4 The facts alleged by
14 Plaintiffs, together with those acknowledged by the President, support the


Page 5
1 inference of the Trump establishments are substantially (or
2 are convertible into) personal revenues of the President.
 
The DOJ is the defense for the executive office that is why.
The suit is a personal suit against Donald J. Trump not the United States of America. If plaintiff wins, monetary damages are assigned from the defendant, not the U.S. government.

Are you suggesting that the Justice Department should have defended Bill Clinton in White Water?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...a9c572-ad18-11e6-977a-1030f822fc35_story.html

In interviews with a dozen diplomats, many of whom declined to be named because they were not authorized to speak about anything related to the next U.S. president, some said spending money at Trump’s hotel is an easy, friendly gesture to the new president.

“Why wouldn’t I stay at his hotel blocks from the White House, so I can tell the new president, ‘I love your new hotel!’ Isn’t it rude to come to his city and say, ‘I am staying at your competitor?’ ” said one Asian diplomat.

Guests at the Trump hotel have begun parking themselves in the lobby, ordering expensive cocktails, hoping to see one of the Trump family members or the latest Cabinet pick. One foreign official hoped Trump, famous for the personal interest he takes in his businesses, might check the guest logs himself.
 
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actually it says nothing of the kind. trump is not receiving anything. the the hotel is and the hotels are run by his sons not trump.
so there is no violation of anything.

let me know when you finally understand facts instead of lies.

Trump, the POTUS, owns the properties, not his sons. It doesn't matter who manages them, Donald J. Trump is the beneficiary of any profits.
 
Let us know when YOU finally understand facts instead of lies. Your defense was destroyed in the court document.

Page 4
5 The complaint alleges that President Trump, operating through
6 corporations, limited‐liability companies, limited partnerships, and other
7 business structures, is effectively the sole owner of restaurants, hotels, and
8 event spaces, which are patronized by foreign and domestic government
9 clientele. The President has announced that, since assuming office, he has
10 turned over day‐to‐day management of his business empire to his children
11 and established a trust to hold his business assets.2 However, he maintains
12 sole ownership, receives business updates at least quarterly,3 and has the
13 ability to obtain distributions from the trust at any time.4 The facts alleged by
14 Plaintiffs, together with those acknowledged by the President, support the


Page 5
1 inference of the Trump establishments are substantially (or
2 are convertible into) personal revenues of the President.

Trump doesn't own the company the company is in a trust and is run by his sons.
there is nothing on the law that says a president can't own a business or run a business either.

also he is not receiving a gift or a profit from it.
as i have already established.

there is no violation the court is wrong to over turn the federal judge.
it doesn't matter the SCOTUS will overturn this.
 
Trump, the POTUS, owns the properties, not his sons. It doesn't matter who manages them, Donald J. Trump is the beneficiary of any profits.

actually it is in a trust so no he doesn't the trust is getting the profit.
 
actually it is in a trust so no he doesn't the trust is getting the profit.

He can still take money from the Trust. His ****ing Trump Organization lawyer Alan Garten confirmed it in 2017. Google it.
 
He can still take money from the Trust. His ****ing Trump Organization lawyer Alan Garten confirmed it in 2017. Google it.

which isn't against the law.
the president is allowed to make money outside of the presidency.

Trump could be president and still run his businesses - The Boston Globe

Most people in government are subject to fairly strict rules regarding conflicts of interest. Cabinet members, for instance, have to recuse themselves from any decisions that might benefit them financially — including issues that would affect close family members.

But the president and vice president are exempt from these rules.

also the hotel is giving any money earned from the guests back to the government
so no one is profiting from them.
 
This suit is against Donald J. Trump, not the office of the President. Did you even read the OP?

The emoluments clause only applies against a position Trump is the president if you have not noticed.
Do you not read anything? obviously not.
 
*sigh*
another case that will be thrown out by the SCOTUS because it has to take them for actual judges to obey the law.

1. Trump is not profiting. his hotel in washingon cuts a check of all profits to the government.
this is a 5 minute google search.

Trump Org reports $191,000 profit from foreign governments, cuts check to Treasury - ABC News

2. Trump does not run the business nor is there any indication that he is showing favoritism or giving these governments any kind of special treatment.
3. There is nothing that says that the president is not allowed to run a business and make money off of it.
4. there is no giving off rooms away as a gift. nor are the people there stopped from staying elsewhere in washington.

sounds like sour grapes to me and yet another court that doesn't know the law.
then again it is NY.

this will go to the SCOTUS and they will have to shut it down yet again.
how hard is it for these judges to follow the law instead of just making **** up that doesn't exist.

Who in the Trump organization determines what the "profit" off these things are?
It's simply pay for play....we stopped using that simple phrase it's only used for some people.
 
The suit is a personal suit against Donald J. Trump not the United States of America. If plaintiff wins, monetary damages are assigned from the defendant, not the U.S. government.

Are you suggesting that the Justice Department should have defended Bill Clinton in White Water?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...a9c572-ad18-11e6-977a-1030f822fc35_story.html

Because it's not against the law for Donald Trump, hotel owner, to conduct financial transactions with foreigners regarding use of his hotel.

It is claimed that it is against the law for Donald Trump, president of the U.S. A., to conduct financial transactions with foreigners regarding the use of his hotel.
That's why the DOJ is defending Trump.

Whitewater occurred before Clinton was elected president and wade strictly a personal affair.
 
The emoluments clause only applies against a position Trump is the president if you have not noticed.
Do you not read anything? obviously not.

Where the Hell did I mention the Emoluments Clause in that post?
 
*sigh*
another case that will be thrown out by the SCOTUS because it has to take them for actual judges to obey the law.

1. Trump is not profiting. his hotel in washingon cuts a check of all profits to the government.
this is a 5 minute google search.

Trump Org reports $191,000 profit from foreign governments, cuts check to Treasury - ABC News

2. Trump does not run the business nor is there any indication that he is showing favoritism or giving these governments any kind of special treatment.
3. There is nothing that says that the president is not allowed to run a business and make money off of it.
4. there is no giving off rooms away as a gift. nor are the people there stopped from staying elsewhere in washington.

sounds like sour grapes to me and yet another court that doesn't know the law.
then again it is NY.

this will go to the SCOTUS and they will have to shut it down yet again.
how hard is it for these judges to follow the law instead of just making **** up that doesn't exist.

They are not wanting to follow the law or do research into the accusations for that reason. They are liberal political hacks who want to embarrass and or remove Trump in defiance of the will of the voters. The liberals on the court even at the SCOTUS are more worried about making law than doing their judicial duties of interpreting the law as written instead of how they wish the law was.
 
actually it is in a trust so no he doesn't the trust is getting the profit.

And Trump owns the trust or is the sole beneficiary of it, so Trump is the sole beneficiary of the profits. It doesn't matter how many entities Trump places between himself and the entities, he is the ultimate owner.
 
Because it's not against the law for Donald Trump, hotel owner, to conduct financial transactions with foreigners regarding use of his hotel.

It is claimed that it is against the law for Donald Trump, president of the U.S. A., to conduct financial transactions with foreigners regarding the use of his hotel.
That's why the DOJ is defending Trump.

It's not about foreigners but foreign and state governments and those representing the governments. It's against the law to receive emoluments, which I view as backdoor bribes in substance. So if, say, Saudi Arabia makes a point to book Trump hotel rooms and we know it's to ingratiate themselves with POTUS and get favorable treatment, that should be illegal under the emoluments clauses. Same thing if, say, a delegation from the state of Tennessee books there for that purpose.

We don't know the reach of the emoluments clause, which is the point of the various lawsuits. What's a bit stunning is the 'conservative' view that all this is OK. If nothing else the problem is it creates an obvious and massive conflict of interest. We ought to be able as Americans to know that a foreign policy decision involving, say, China isn't based on the fact that the Chinese are buying lots of Trump condos, or booking 200 nights/year in his hotel in the high priced suites, but what's best for the U.S. The Chinese (or whoever) funneling money to POTUS through his various properties creates doubts. Surely you can admit that much.
 
Trump has used up 10s of millions of dollars to pay his employees. His monthly if not weekly trips to Mar-a-Lago, with his entourage and the people who are in his entourage's entourage have literally risen to tens of millions. Money ludin will never see. For ludin, Trump is redeemed because he has cut a check to the government for his profit of 190K on tens of millions that have been spent yearly.

ludin thinks the problem is liberals being stupid again. You can't get more interesting than that folks. Speak slowly, speak fast, it won't help. The only laundry he knows involves socks with holes in them.

Sent from the Matrioshka in the WH Christmas tree.
 
It's not about foreigners but foreign and state governments and those representing the governments. It's against the law to receive emoluments, which I view as backdoor bribes in substance. So if, say, Saudi Arabia makes a point to book Trump hotel rooms and we know it's to ingratiate themselves with POTUS and get favorable treatment, that should be illegal under the emoluments clauses. Same thing if, say, a delegation from the state of Tennessee books there for that purpose.

We don't know the reach of the emoluments clause, which is the point of the various lawsuits. What's a bit stunning is the 'conservative' view that all this is OK. If nothing else the problem is it creates an obvious and massive conflict of interest. We ought to be able as Americans to know that a foreign policy decision involving, say, China isn't based on the fact that the Chinese are buying lots of Trump condos, or booking 200 nights/year in his hotel in the high priced suites, but what's best for the U.S. The Chinese (or whoever) funneling money to POTUS through his various properties creates doubts. Surely you can admit that much.

I can see the point of it creating a conflict of interest.
 
I can see the point of it creating a conflict of interest.

That's cool. What worries me here is a ruling in favor of Trump really opens the floodgates. If it's OK for Saudi Arabia to snap up condos at full price or book hotel rooms in Trump Hotel, when they tell us or we all know from basic common sense that it's to ingratiate themselves with, or not disadvantage them (perhaps more likely - why take the risk, what's $10 million or whatever in exchange for $100 billion in defense hardware, or trade concessions?), then it's not even a half step from that to banana republic stuff, where POTUS buys/acquires an interest in any number of businesses and all who want favors from the feds know to pay tribute to the POTUS. It seems like in the modern world, the point of the emoluments clause is to prevent exactly that kind of arrangement, and if it doesn't do that, then there is no point to it.

Plus it's not that a future President cannot have businesses that might be used by foreigners to curry favor. The Constitutional requirement is that any such arrangements get approved by Congress. So to own a hotel like Trump Hotel, let Congress approve the terms. Trump says he's donating the profits, but anyone who's familiar at all with accounting knows you can calculate that a dozen different ways. If it's profits after variable costs, that's one number. If it's profits after allocating a bunch of fixed costs, something FAR, FAR less will be considered "profits" and if a stay is covering a bunch of fixed costs, Trump is still benefitting tremendously, even if it's not showing "profits" based on all costs. And how are any of those determined and who's checking the figures? Congress could set those parameters.
 
It's not about foreigners but foreign and state governments and those representing the governments. It's against the law to receive emoluments, which I view as backdoor bribes in substance. So if, say, Saudi Arabia makes a point to book Trump hotel rooms and we know it's to ingratiate themselves with POTUS and get favorable treatment, that should be illegal under the emoluments clauses. Same thing if, say, a delegation from the state of Tennessee books there for that purpose.

We don't know the reach of the emoluments clause, which is the point of the various lawsuits. What's a bit stunning is the 'conservative' view that all this is OK. If nothing else the problem is it creates an obvious and massive conflict of interest. We ought to be able as Americans to know that a foreign policy decision involving, say, China isn't based on the fact that the Chinese are buying lots of Trump condos, or booking 200 nights/year in his hotel in the high priced suites, but what's best for the U.S. The Chinese (or whoever) funneling money to POTUS through his various properties creates doubts. Surely you can admit that much.
Yes, it is stunning that conservatives, who just a few short years ago were screaming about draining the swamp, which I interpret to mean self-dealing insiders who profited from their connections in government by pulling strings for their own private benefit or profit, now think it's just fine for Kuwait to book the $20,000 a night room at the Trump Washington hotel for the purpose of influencing U.S./Kuwait relations. Yes, stunning.

This is exactly why the founders wrote the emoluments clause into the constitution.

According to the last ruling:

The Complaint sufficiently alleges that Plaintiffs compete directly with
9 Trump establishments and that the President’s allegedly illegal acts favor
10 Plaintiffs’ competitors. Specifically, it alleges that Plaintiffs’ establishments
11 are harmed in their competition with Trump establishments because, despite
12 being comparable in other relevant respects, the President’s establishments
13 offer government patrons something that Plaintiffs cannot: the opportunity,
14 by enriching the President, to obtain favorable governmental treatment from
15 the President and the Executive branch. It alleges that the marketplace is thus
16 skewed in favor of Trump businesses because of his unlawful receipt of
17 payments from government patrons. The Complaint, supported by expert
18 declarations, alleges that this unlawful market skew has caused Plaintiffs
economic harm in the
1 form of lost patronage from government entities, and
2 that such harm will continue in the future. For competitor standing, that is
3 sufficient.
 
Last edited:
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