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CNBC: US appeals court rules against Trump in foreign payments case

The main gist of the first paragraph of the passage you reference concerns the idea that Congress cannot restrict the President's pay during his term in office.



There is nothing about this section of the passage which changes the plain meaning of the term emolument.



This isn't an argument anyone is making. Nobody has criticized Trump for receiving gifts of nominal value. You are using a strawman in this instance.

The funds Trump has received are significant:

Reps of 22 foreign governments have spent money at Trump properties



This isn't a thing. This isn't a defense. There is no defense in the Constitution or in the case law or anywhere, even in the passage you cited, that says that the emoluments clause doesn't apply if the payment comes about because the President happens to own a business which provides some product or service. The bottom line is that if the President's business dealings result in a situation where he is at risk of being bribed or influenced by foreign governments then the emoluments clause would still apply.

You are assuming, and take as fact, that all the crooked stuff Trump and his family have been doing, and with regard to foreign loans, and the fact that foreign officials stay at Trump hotels are no big deal, and do not influence the decisions Trump makes. In fact, there is already a great deal of evidence to the contrary.



This is a ridiculous notion. He can just sell his assets and then buy them back when he is voted out of office in 2021. He can sell those properties must at risk.

With regard to the loans people like Kushner get, it's quite simple. Don't take gigantic loans from foreign countries or organizations closely affiliated with foreign countries. And if you can't refrain from doing stuff like that you can't work in the White House.

Those paragraphs speak to the INTENT of the emoluments clause. That's what is at issue here. The obvious intent is to prevent congress, the states and foreign nations from gaining undue influence over the president and that makes sense. At issue in this case is whether or not foreign diplomats staying at Trump's hotels rises to the level of "undue influence" and that would be exceedingly hard, if not impossible, to prove.
 
Those paragraphs speak to the INTENT of the emoluments clause. That's what is at issue here. The obvious intent is to prevent congress, the states and foreign nations from gaining undue influence over the president and that makes sense. At issue in this case is whether or not foreign diplomats staying at Trump's hotels rises to the level of "undue influence"

I do not disagree with you as it concerns the intent of the emoluments clause. I agree with your statement concerning the intent of the emoluments clause.

You kept giving the impression that the mere act of running a business that received a ton of cash and loans from foreigners is nothing to be bothered about. And asserted the fact Trump has a business that, just because it's a business which is operating "normally", then well, that was sufficient evidence to prove your point that the situation did not rise to the level of the President possibly being unduly influenced. You are making a whole range of assumptions.

And I think hundreds of thousands of dollars are enough to create a situation where the President is may be in a position of being unduly influenced.

It should engender suspicion. Justifiably so.

and that would be exceedingly hard, if not impossible, to prove.

It's not impossible to prove, and we already have evidence of Trump and his associates being influenced by other means.

This is an unrelated point, but:

And the thing that makes it hard to prove also makes it hard to disprove. Just due to the fact that it creates a bad appearance or suspicion, the President should refrain from taking money from foreign governments.
 
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I'm not abandoning anything. You are clinging to this decision while completely dismissing the lower court decision. You've got two decisions and, like the appellate court, you are simply ignoring the reasoning in the prior opinion because you agree with this one. Furthermore, you are completely ignoring the reasons that this case was brought to begin with.

It's nothing but a political hit job.

The appellate court didn't ignore the lower court decision - they very explicitly and directly considered it and overturned it. It's how it works.

And of course there is a political aspect to the case, but that does not make the issues raised illegitimate. Do we want the office of the Presidency to operate like a banana republic, with presidents using it to enrich themselves through bribery and self dealing, or not. If not, then we shouldn't support foreign governments more or less openly, or not, patronizing the businesses of the President to ingratiate themselves with him through backdoor bribes. That's how it worked with tributes to the King, dictatorships, etc.

That's the principle at stake here. Where would you draw the line?
 
Those paragraphs speak to the INTENT of the emoluments clause. That's what is at issue here. The obvious intent is to prevent congress, the states and foreign nations from gaining undue influence over the president and that makes sense. At issue in this case is whether or not foreign diplomats staying at Trump's hotels rises to the level of "undue influence" and that would be exceedingly hard, if not impossible, to prove.

Why would anyone need to prove the influence happened? The emoluments clause doesn't require anyone to prove gifts or other 'emoluments' did influence decisions, it bans them outright because of the potential corrupting influence unless Congress is advised and approves. That's all that's required here. We know the total amount foreign governments spent is at least $350,000 because that's the "profits" Trump org has returned for just the Trump Hotel. If the total amount was $800,000, isn't that potentially corrupting? At a minimum, shouldn't the total amount of bookings, by which countries, the costs attributed to those bookings, and how they're calculated be public knowledge, released regularly, so we all know?

Bottom line is the public shouldn't have to guess, wonder, suspect, worry. That's the point of the BAN in the Constitution, to remove the possibility of bribes corrupting decisions.
 
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Why would anyone need to prove the influence happened? The emoluments clause doesn't require anyone to prove gifts or other 'emoluments' did influence decisions, it bans them outright because of the potential corrupting influence unless Congress is advised and approves. That's all that's required here. We know the total amount foreign governments spent is at least $350,000 because that's the "profits" Trump org has returned for just the Trump Hotel. If the total amount was $800,000, isn't that potentially corrupting? At a minimum, shouldn't the total amount of bookings, by which countries, the costs attributed to those bookings, and how they're calculated be public knowledge, released regularly, so we all know?

Bottom line is the public shouldn't have to guess, wonder, suspect, worry. That's the point of the BAN in the Constitution, to remove the possibility of bribes corrupting decisions.

The problem with the argument Lutherf is making is that he assumes his assumption is fact. He is assuming that Trump's businesses receiving 350k from foreign governments does not rise to the level of the President being in a position of being unduly influenced.

Concerning gifts:

What happens when a gift is given to the United States President? - AOL News

According to a document from the Congressional Research Service gifts from foreign governments aren't actually property of the president. The document states: 'A tangible gift of more than minimal value accepted for reasons of protocol or courtesy may not be kept as a personal gift, however, but is considered accepted on behalf of and property of the United States, and in the case of such a gift for the President or the President's family, is handled by the National Archives and Records Administration'.e.

After a gift has been accepted it is stored in the National Archives while they are in-office. Once their term has ended the collection moves to a Presidential Library. Occasionally a president may not want to part with a particular item and they are given the opportunity to purchase it back at market value.

Basically, everything Trump is doing is wrong. There is even a formal process for gift acceptance, which the President doesn't keep.

But Luterf is right. That is the intent of the clause. And you are also right in another way. The U.S. government thinks even gifts of more than minimal value are so potentially dangerous in terms of influencing the President there is a formal process for gift acceptance where the President never personally takes ownership of the item.
 
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Why would anyone need to prove the influence happened? The emoluments clause doesn't require anyone to prove gifts or other 'emoluments' did influence decisions, it bans them outright because of the potential corrupting influence unless Congress is advised and approves. That's all that's required here. We know the total amount foreign governments spent is at least $350,000 because that's the "profits" Trump org has returned for just the Trump Hotel. If the total amount was $800,000, isn't that potentially corrupting? At a minimum, shouldn't the total amount of bookings, by which countries, the costs attributed to those bookings, and how they're calculated be public knowledge, released regularly, so we all know?

Bottom line is the public shouldn't have to guess, wonder, suspect, worry. That's the point of the BAN in the Constitution, to remove the possibility of bribes corrupting decisions.

The burden of proof requires the plaintif to proved that Trump received the emolument. If the money went to an entity that Trump doesn't benefit from financially, then he received nothing. If he is receiving a salary from said entity, the IRS already knows about it and has responsibility to act upon that information.

If Trump is receiving money from said entity under the table, then that probably qualifies as bribery. The plaintiff is required to prove that that is happening.

So, yes, the burden of proof is very alive and well in this case.
 
The burden of proof requires the plaintif to proved that Trump received the [/i]emolument[/i]. If the money went an entity that Trump doesn't benefit from financially, then he received nothing. If he is receiving a salary from said entity, the IRS already knows about it and has responsibility to act upon that information.

If Trump is receiving money from said entity under the table, then that probably qualifies as bribery. The plaintiff is required to prove that that is happening.

So, yes, the burden of proof is very alive and well in this case.

We already have evidence Trump's companies received money from foreign governments.

Whether or not the transmission of funds is known or unknown to the public doesn't matter.

I think the question is whether or not the funds would influence the President's decision-making process in some way.

The U.S. government thinks even gifts of more than minimal value are so potentially dangerous in terms of influencing the President there is a formal process for gift acceptance where the President never personally takes ownership of the item.
 
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[h=1]US appeals court rules against Trump in foreign payments case[/h]



This is the actual decision (pdf): https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6405431/9-13-19-CREW-2nd-Circuit.pdf

The court Vacated and Remanded the previous decision.

snippet:
Speaking as an unappologetic Trump supporter, i dont know if its legal or not. I will leave that to the courts to sort out, but even if it is, im uncomfortable with it. I dont begrudge him making a buck but this does not have a good look.

Im not sure if it can elimiated from politics but i would feel better if they did not have buisiness dealing with people who have politicsl interests with our government.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
Speaking as an unappologetic Trump supporter, i dont know if its legal or not. I will leave that to the courts to sort out, but even if it is, im uncomfortable with it. I dont begrudge him making a buck but this does not have a good look.

Im not sure if it can elimiated from politics but i would feel better if they did not have buisiness dealing with people who have politicsl interests with our government.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

What planet am I on? A reasonable-sounding Trump supporter? This cannot be possible.
 
What planet am I on? A reasonable-sounding Trump supporter? This cannot be possible.
There are many rational people on both sides but we get spoken over by the zealots.

Speaking for myself i support the idea of having ethical representstion in our government. We csn disagree on what the best solutions are for any given problem or even on what is and isnt a problem but we should all agree on the ethicsl standards

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
actually it says nothing of the kind.
Article 1 said:
And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State
Objection dismissed.

trump is not receiving anything. the the hotel is and the hotels are run by his sons not trump.
so there is no violation of anything.

let me know when you finally understand facts instead of lies.

Donald Trump still owns Trump Org. It doesn't matter who "runs" it. (and it's utterly laughable to suggest having your own children manage day to day operations while simultaneously consulting in the white house daily sufficiently insulates the conflict of interest)

Objection dismissed.
 
There are many rational people on both sides but we get spoken over by the zealots.

Speaking for myself i support the idea of having ethical representstion in our government. We csn disagree on what the best solutions are for any given problem or even on what is and isnt a problem but we should all agree on the ethicsl standards

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Your objection to unethical representation is entirely hypothetical because you're still going to vote for Trump again.

You have to decide which is more important: your ethics, or having "your guy" win. I think you've chosen.
 
Your objection to unethical representation is entirely hypothetical because you're still going to vote for Trump again.

You have to decide which is more important: your ethics, or having "your guy" win. I think you've chosen.
Is this the part where you tell me that whoever the democrats nominate will be so much more ethicsl thsn Trump and act confused that i dont see it too.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
We already have evidence Trump's companies received money from foreign governments.

Whether or not the transmission of funds is known or unknown to the public doesn't matter.

I think the question is whether or not the funds would influence the President's decision-making process in some way.

The U.S. government thinks even gifts of more than minimal value are so potentially dangerous in terms of influencing the President there is a formal process for gift acceptance where the President never personally takes ownership of the item.

As long as he isn't receiving a salary from those companies the emoluments clause hasn't been violated.
 
As long as he isn't receiving a salary from those companies the emoluments clause hasn't been violated.

You're just making stuff up. An emolument isn't just a salary. It can be any kind of payment.

emolument[ ih-mol-yuh-muh nt ]

noun

profit, salary, or fees from office or employment; compensation for services.
 
You're just making stuff up. An emolument isn't just a salary. It can be any kind of payment.

emolument[ ih-mol-yuh-muh nt ]

noun

profit, salary, or fees from office or employment; compensation for services.

book sales?
 
The burden of proof requires the plaintif to proved that Trump received the emolument. If the money went to an entity that Trump doesn't benefit from financially, then he received nothing. If he is receiving a salary from said entity, the IRS already knows about it and has responsibility to act upon that information.

He owns Trump Hotel. How can he not benefit financially from it? And what salary he takes has nothing to do with anything, nor does the IRS.

If Trump is receiving money from said entity under the table, then that probably qualifies as bribery. The plaintiff is required to prove that that is happening.

It doesn't have to be under the table to qualify as an emolument, and whether business transactions like the Trump Hotel or selling condos or $200k initiation memberships, etc. would qualify isn't really known, hence the court cases. That is their purpose - to resolve these things.

So, yes, the burden of proof is very alive and well in this case.

But not to prove the amount was corrupting. The emoluments clause prohibits them, period. There is no "if they're not corrupting" test.
 
Those paragraphs speak to the INTENT of the emoluments clause. That's what is at issue here. The obvious intent is to prevent congress, the states and foreign nations from gaining undue influence over the president and that makes sense. At issue in this case is whether or not foreign diplomats staying at Trump's hotels rises to the level of "undue influence" and that would be exceedingly hard, if not impossible, to prove.
If everyone can bribe you, how can anyone prove that any part of your money was illegally gained?

Brilliant strategy.

See you in SCOTUS.

Sent from the Matrioshka in the WH Christmas tree.
 
Whether they 'cut a check' to the US Government or not, the emoluments clause is a clause in the Constitution that prohibits any federal officeholder – including the president – from accepting any payment or benefit from a state or foreign government without permission from Congress.

Wonder if Obama or his wife received any royalties from books sold to foreigners.
 
If everyone can bribe you, how can anyone prove that any part of your money was illegally gained?

Brilliant strategy.

See you in SCOTUS.

Sent from the Matrioshka in the WH Christmas tree.

Show me where anyone bribed Trump
 
Show me where anyone bribed Trump
Again, if everyone can stay, and pay for a limitless supply of fine Trump products, like Trump steaks, Trump soaps, Trump water, then how any of us ever prove any of it is a bribe?

Solid strategy. I've asked you before. If an employee of yours took the LutherF Inc company credit card and spent it on his businesses, would you not give your lawyers a ring and work on getting your money back?

Flex that business acumen.

Lol.




Sent from the Matrioshka in the WH Christmas tree.
 
Again, if everyone can stay, and pay for a limitless supply of fine Trump products, like Trump steaks, Trump soaps, Trump water, then how any of us ever prove any of it is a bribe?

Solid strategy. I've asked you before. If an employee of yours took the LutherF Inc company credit card and spent it on his businesses, would you not give your lawyers a ring and work on getting your money back?

Flex that business acumen.

Lol.




Sent from the Matrioshka in the WH Christmas tree.

its only a problem now because TRUMP!

not a problem for Barry or Michelle selling books.

so much hand wringing:doh
 
book sales?

Let's consider how petty your argument is:

Obama is making a fraction of the total retail price of each book sale. Pennies on the dollar. The bulk of his earnings came in the front of an advance prior to being sworn in.

Do you think foreign governments went around buying up Obama's books to influence him? Is that your argument? Do you know how insanely unproductive bribing someone in this manner would be?

And then let's consider the fact that books are sold through a network of middlemen and resellers. Obama would never have any idea who bought his book and who didn't.

Knock it off with this petty argument. It's the same with every whataboutism.

Trump does something insanely corrupt, and then Trump supporters point to the most boring and innocuous non-scandal involving Obama.

This is one of the many reasons I am voting a straight Democratic ticket in the next election.

Wonder if Obama or his wife received any royalties from books sold to foreigners.



See above.
 
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Let's consider how petty your argument is:

Obama is making a fraction of the total retail price of each book sale. Pennies on the dollar. The bulk of his earnings came in the front of an advance prior to being sworn in.

Do you think foreign governments went around buying up Obama's books to influence him? Is that your argument? Do you know how insanely unproductive bribing someone in this manner would be?

And then let's consider the fact that books are sold through a network of middlemen and resellers. Obama would never have any idea who bought his book and who didn't.

Knock it off with this petty argument. It's the same with every whataboutism.

Trump does something insanely corrupt, and then Trump supporters point to the most boring and innocuous non-scandal involving Obama.

This is one of the many reasons I am voting a straight Democratic ticket in the next election.

so how much you make is a factor?

not a persuasive argument imo
 
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