California passes landmark bill that threatens to upend companies like Uber and Lyft

Stealers Wheel · Sep 15, 2019

prometeus said:
Repeating the same crap unsupported crap will not make it real.

here's some support: LINK
There are lots of other links that support the description of a sharedriver as being an independent contractor.

Stealers Wheel · Sep 15, 2019

Waddy said:
I suspect that lots of Uber drivers don't have much in the way of marketable skills, and this is at least an opportunity for them.

It may be true, but I've met several drivers who have full-time well-paying jobs and ridesharing is simply a side gig to earn more.

Also, I've met drivers who wanted the car of their dreams. They purchase their car, use Uber and/or Lyft to pay for it. They see getting to drive their new dream car as a perk.

bluesmoke · Sep 15, 2019

Bullseye said:
You really have no grasp of how the gig economy works or why it appeals to many people, do you? Or what this issue is really all about.

An independent contractor enjoys the freedom from outside control, relative to being an employee. The drawbacks are that contracts are short-term, so the independent is always working on the next contract with a different contractor/company as may be had. That’s freelance as opposed to being permanently employed.

Uber drives do not do that. They have a contract which makes them a “partner” with Uber that requires they meet requirements which oblige them to a long-term contract of virtual employment. They can contract with another company, like Lyft, which allows them to meet the legal definition of “independent contractor”. But, to get Ubers calls, to hit the numbers, there is no way you can be an independent to the extent you are working with as many companies as would a typical, truly independent contractor, and hit those numbers.

Anyone who is and independent contractor in spirit would never buy-in to an Uber contract. Unless they no longer had the spirit.

prometeus · Sep 16, 2019

Stealers Wheel said:
here's some support: LINK
There are lots of other links that support the description of a sharedriver as being an independent contractor.

At best it is less than conclusive and a gray area.

Stealers Wheel · Sep 16, 2019

prometeus said:
At best it is less than conclusive and a gray area.

I'm just going on what the IRS says. Now, if California thinks that they can supersede IRS requirements, good luck with that.

Call it "gray" if you like. It seems relatively straight forward to me.

Please, show me another business wherein an "employee" gets to come to work whenever they feel like it and leave whenever they feel like it. Do you know any "employees" who get to decide where they are going to work on any given day without clearing it with their employer? Know any "employees" who are required by their employer to provide all their own tools to do the job? Know of any other "employees" who can work for one company and simultaneously work for the competing company?

But yeah, it's a "gray area." SMH

prometeus · Sep 16, 2019

Stealers Wheel said:
I'm just going on what the IRS says.

While the IRS may have an intended "clear position" on what is an independent contractor, pretending that it precisely applies to every possible situation is naive. When was the guideline written and were share riding driver even considered into it? Is it possible that the IRS may need to revisit the issue or what they wrote is just gospel and can not be changed?

Call it "gray" if you like.

It is gray alright as the similarities described in the IRS guideline are, at best, remotely related to the issue at hand.

It seems relatively straight forward to me.

Clearly not to many others.

Please, show me another business wherein an "employee" gets to come to work whenever they feel like it and leave whenever they feel like it.

There are countless employees who work from home and set their own hours.

Do you know any "employees" who get to decide where they are going to work on any given day without clearing it with their employer?

Uber drivers are "given" their fares so they are going where they are told.

Know any "employees" who are required by their employer to provide all their own tools to do the job?

Yes, countless people who are employees and work from home use their own "tools" to perform their work.

But yeah, it's a "gray area."

Only if you manage some honesty in looking at it.

Stealers Wheel · Sep 16, 2019

prometeus said:
Only if you manage some honesty in looking at it.

Well, we were having an adult conversation and you had to go and say I'm dishonest - because I disagree with your position.

So, we're done. Have a nice day, *******!

jamesrage · Sep 18, 2019

chuckiechan said:
California passes Assembly Bill 5 for gig workers

Its my opinion that with very few exceptions, the people where the rubber hits the road aren’t making any money. Independent contactorship can work in lots of areas, but it takes big sales with low overhead. Uber snd Lyft make the money, the driver/owner gets the squeeze.

Tax collectors don’t like independents because they often end up owing, and cant pay. And regular taxi companies are getting hammered.

So we shall see. Uber and Lyft had better bring out the check books, ‘cause Daddy is hungry.

I think laws need to change to define what qualifies as and employee and what qualifies as a contractor. Because often times companies will hire contractors to use as employees in order to save money even though these people mostly work for them. For example Fed-Ex drivers are contractors even though 5 to 6 days a week for several hours a day they drive trucks with the Fed-Ex Logo, wear Fed-Ex uniforms, carry Fed-Ex ID and deliver Fed-Ex packages. Personally I think the law needs to change to make these people employees of Fed-Ex.And the same thing with Uber and Lyft Drivers.

prometeus · Sep 18, 2019

Stealers Wheel said:
Well, we were having an adult conversation and you had to go and say I'm dishonest

Not my intent, just asking to set aside your possible bias on this issue.

Stealers Wheel · Sep 18, 2019

prometeus said:
Not my intent, just asking to set aside your possible bias on this issue.

Your lack of apology is noted.

I have no bias. I have no dog in the fight. I've simply pointed out that for a very long time the IRS has had a specific test to determine whether someone is an independent contractor or an employee. It has to do with who is required to pay taxes, match withholdings, etc.

When that test is applied to an Uber or Lyft driver, it is quite clear to me they are indeed independent contractors.

California is probably looking to collect more in tax withholdings. They are notorious for that kind of nonsense.

prometeus · Sep 19, 2019

Stealers Wheel said:
I have no bias. I have no dog in the fight.

It looked to me as you may have.

I've simply pointed out that for a very long time the IRS has had a specific test to determine whether someone is an independent contractor or an employee.

Yes and a "very long time" ago Uber did not exist, so the policy needs to be revisited and either changed or reaffirmed.

It has to do with who is required to pay taxes, match withholdings, etc.

Exactly so it is convenient to Uber and less so to the drivers.

When that test is applied to an Uber or Lyft driver, it is quite clear to me they are indeed independent contractors.

We differ on that.

California is probably looking to collect more in tax withholdings. They are notorious for that kind of nonsense.

Probably and yes, but lets not forget the drivers who also believe they should be employees.

Stealers Wheel · Sep 19, 2019

prometeus said:
... but lets not forget the drivers who also believe they should be employees.

If they want to be classified as employees, they should use company-owned cars. They should have to clock-in and out. They should be required to work specific hours as determined by the company. They should work in whatever location the company says they should. They should have to pick up every fare the company dispatches them to. They should have their taxes withheld by the company according to IRS guidelines. They should get paid on a set schedule established by the company.

If they want to be employees, they should get hired by a taxi company.

Now, you have expressed the notion that the IRS guidelines, which existed before the rideshare business model existed, are vague or unclear as regards ridesharing and should be revisited. Perhaps you could take one or two of the test points and explain why you think they are problematic for classifying an Uber driver an independent contractor. Here is a LINK for your convenience.

Praxas · Sep 19, 2019

Lord Tammerlain said:
Uber and Lyft have yet to make a profit. They are keeping rates low to drive out competitors then when they are gone raise rates in a monopolistic market (at least their hope)

So they are just continuing the trend that Walmart and every other big outlet has been doing for decades.

prometeus · Sep 19, 2019

Stealers Wheel said:
If they want to be classified as employees, they should use company-owned cars.

Or they can be reimbursed for using their own cars.

They should have to clock-in and out.

Countless employees work from home without clocking in or out.

They should be required to work specific hours as determined by the company.

Not at all. Lot so employees set their own hours.

They should work in whatever location the company says they should.

They are, they are told where the next fare is to be picked up.

They should have to pick up every fare the company dispatches them to.

Why?

They should have their taxes withheld by the company according to IRS guidelines.

That is what Uber is trying to avid.

They should get paid on a set schedule established by the company.

They are.

Now, you have expressed the notion that the IRS guidelines, which existed before the rideshare business model existed, are vague or unclear as regards ridesharing and should be revisited. Perhaps you could take one or two of the test points and explain why you think they are problematic for classifying an Uber driver an independent contractor.

I already have shown many.

Stealers Wheel · Sep 19, 2019

Quote Originally Posted by Stealers Wheel
If they want to be classified as employees, they should use company-owned cars.

Or they can be reimbursed for using their own cars.

You mean like a mileage compensation?

They should have to clock-in and out.

Countless employees work from home without clocking in or out.

Tell us who. And if it involves login to a company network, that's effectively clocking in. I know. My daughter does it all the time, and she's a salaried employee. She knows her supervisors note when she logs in and out.

They should be required to work specific hours as determined by the company.

Not at all. Lot so employees set their own hours.

In the people moving business? Really? Name one company that allows the employee driver to come in whenever he feels like it.

They should work in whatever location the company says they should.

They are, they are told where the next fare is to be picked up.

The driver is free to be wherever they wish. The company does not designate driver locations. And when a ride request comes in, the driver can say "no." The way ride share works is the customer requests a ride. The app notifies all available drivers in the close area that there is a ride request. The drivers can respond or not. Once a driver responds, the customer can cancel the ride or reject the driver and get another. The company has nothing to do with this transaction up to this point. once the ride is complete, the company bills the customer's CC. That's all. The driver can take his pay when he chooses. And the driver can end his "shift" by simply turning off his app.

They should have to pick up every fare the company dispatches them to.

Why?

Because that's how employee drivers work. They go where the company tells them to go and when they are to go there. This not the case with Uber drivers.

They should have their taxes withheld by the company according to IRS guidelines.

That is what Uber is trying to avoid.

From my reading of the IRS guidelines, and the fact that neither Uber nor Lyft have not been busted for failing to withhold taxes, I'd say they are apparently within their rights and the law.

They should get paid on a set schedule established by the company.

They are.

No. The driver takes his earned pay when he wants it, not according to a company pay schedule.

Now, you have expressed the notion that the IRS guidelines, which existed before the rideshare business model existed, are vague or unclear as regards ridesharing and should be revisited. Perhaps you could take one or two of the test points and explain why you think they are problematic for classifying an Uber driver an independent contractor.

I already have shown many.

Which begs the question, if you're so **** sure that the ride share drivers are actually employees, why hasn't the IRS busted them for the literally millions of dollars they would undoubtedly owe in FICA, withholding, etc.?

Lord Tammerlain · Sep 19, 2019

Praxas said:
So they are just continuing the trend that Walmart and every other big outlet has been doing for decades.

With the exception of deep pockets that allow the entire company to lose money every year, rather than just certain business segments that they want to grow