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Charges dropped for two people accused of assaulting man wearing ‘MAGA’ hat in Portland

Re: Charges dropped for two people accused of assaulting man wearing ‘MAGA’ hat in Portland

I posted the link earlier showing the first report about this assault. Here it is again:

Man says he was assaulted outside Portland bar for wearing 'MAGA' hat; two people arrested | | kptv.com

And then there is this video:

Court docs: Assault outside Portland bar prompted by 'MAGA' hat | kgw.com

Evidence he was looking for a fight and others were telling him to leave, they didn't want to fight him.
I thank you for that link. It definitely sheds a different light on things. It does not show what happened outside but it does speak to his demeanor exiting the bar. He might of been provoked but he did not appear to have good control over his emotions. That said i still maintain that it is not evidence of what you claimed it was evidence of. None of those people witnessed what happened outside. They only testified to his behavior inside the bar.

I can guess how things went down outside but it would presumptious to do so.

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I wasnt trying to say the scenerio i described was what hsppened. Im trying to determine where the line is between when violence is justified and when it isnt, in your opinion. Yes in a lot of places doing something like that would result in a fight but that does not make it legal. Accidentally bumping into someone can cause a fight too but again that does not make it justified. There needs to be the element on imminent threat present. Do you not agree?

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For a bar fight? I think that for the most part, as long as it is a fair fight, it should depend on the situation as to what is justified. I don't condone violence, but don't want someone getting off without punishment if they were trying to purposely start a fight and did something (like pushing someone) but especially when talking about doing things they know will cause a fight, simply because they didn't throw the first official punch. Those other things that were going on have to be taken into consideration when it comes to such things. They can't be ignored. It is better that both people receive no punishment after such a thing than one be unfairly held responsible for something the other instigated from any reasonable person point of view.

Now level of the fight, of violence used against the person is important to consider too. This sounds as if he got a couple of punches from two people (despite several who he claims were circling him), resulting in some bruising and bloody nose. Not all that serious. Whereas permanent damage done for a similar situation is definitely too far and should be seen as uncalled for and deserve far harsher punishment.
 
Re: Charges dropped for two people accused of assaulting man wearing ‘MAGA’ hat in Portland

I thank you for that link. It definitely sheds a different light on things. It does not show what happened outside but it does speak to his demeanor exiting the bar. He might of been provoked but he did not appear to have good control over his emotions. That said i still maintain that it is not evidence of what you claimed it was evidence of. None of those people witnessed what happened outside. They only testified to his behavior inside the bar.

I can guess how things went down outside but it would presumptious to do so.

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To be clear, that video is from a whole different bar that same night. The one I added after is from the bar where the assaults happened, and includes the statement that witnesses, including a bartender at the bar, said that Lenzner started the fight.
 
For a bar fight? I think that for the most part, as long as it is a fair fight, it should depend on the situation as to what is justified. I don't condone violence, but don't want someone getting off without punishment if they were trying to purposely start a fight and did something (like pushing someone) but especially when talking about doing things they know will cause a fight, simply because they didn't throw the first official punch. Those other things that were going on have to be taken into consideration when it comes to such things. They can't be ignored. It is better that both people receive no punishment after such a thing than one be unfairly held responsible for something the other instigated from any reasonable person point of view.

Now level of the fight, of violence used against the person is important to consider too. This sounds as if he got a couple of punches from two people (despite several who he claims were circling him), resulting in some bruising and bloody nose. Not all that serious. Whereas permanent damage done for a similar situation is definitely too far and should be seen as uncalled for and deserve far harsher punishment.
Basivally what i am hearing from you is that you support vigilante justice if its within what you consider acceptable standards. I can honestly respect that point of view.

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Basivally what i am hearing from you is that you support vigilante justice if its within what you consider acceptable standards. I can honestly respect that point of view.

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My favorite superhero is Nightwing, absolutely a vigilante, since he was a child.

Granted, I do not really agree with vigilante justice in general, such as going out and finding those who have committed crimes and stopping them or punishing them for doing that (that kind of thing is for comic books where the good guy is always able to get the right person because they are written to do so). I do support reasonable views of situations where both are to blame ending in neither being punished if there isn't really anything to gain from said punishment. Both have some culpability in this situation in their actions, so to punish either (especially without punishment for the other) would be unfair.
 
My favorite superhero is Nightwing, absolutely a vigilante, since he was a child.

Granted, I do not really agree with vigilante justice in general, such as going out and finding those who have committed crimes and stopping them or punishing them for doing that (that kind of thing is for comic books where the good guy is always able to get the right person because they are written to do so). I do support reasonable views of situations where both are to blame ending in neither being punished if there isn't really anything to gain from said punishment. Both have some culpability in this situation in their actions, so to punish either (especially without punishment for the other) would be unfair.
Well we just found something we have in common. I much perfer to let people work stuff like this on their own rather than call in the government to do it for them (within reason of course).

Im still not convinced they were within their legal right to punch they guy in the face but given the way the guy was conducting himself he should not of gotten the police involved either.

I envision what likely happened was they saw his hat and gave him a dirty look for wearing it. He made an obnoxious comment. They reacted poorly and maybe a little too boldly. He was on the prowl looking for that kind of reaction and when he got one he esculated it more. Somewhere in this esculation he shoved her and that set off her freind who was probsbly looking for an excuse to hit him just as much as he was looking for an excuse to hsve a confrontation. They all got what they were looking. Now the guy wants to be more of a dick and got them arrested which is on their record now. Everyone of them lost in that exchange.

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I read it. I asked you some questions. Have you rhetorically wished violence on anyone? Have you ever said anything like, "People like him need a good ass kicking from time to time."

Lots of people talk like that from time to time. If you haven't talked that way, well, (a) I'll actually be surprised and (b) a lot of people you like have still surely talked that way. Trump is known to have talked that way. But you ascribe that common and across-the-ideological-spectrum kind of rhetoric to a poster being "a true ANTIFA devotee".

Maybe I am a little more controlled than you.

I have been shoved. My wife has been shoved. I issued warning in both cases.

In my case shover cooled off.

In my wife's case the two drunk Marines escalated and I ended the fight with a few well placed blows. And more than a couple of teeth broken.

In neither case did I find the need to punch someone doing the shoving.

There are levels of escalation.
 
Maybe I am a little more controlled than you.

I have been shoved. My wife has been shoved. I issued warning in both cases.

In my case shover cooled off.

In my wife's case the two drunk Marines escalated and I ended the fight with a few well placed blows. And more than a couple of teeth broken.

In neither case did I find the need to punch someone doing the shoving.

There are levels of escalation.


Oh well. That doesn't address you calling very common rhetoric a sign of "a true ANTIFA devotee". Of course, I understand that it's difficult to address that since you basically also called Trump and many, many people on the right true ANTIFA devotees when you took that shot at the poster on this thread.

You're off the hook now. I won't keep trying to get a straight answer.
 
Oh well. That doesn't address you calling very common rhetoric a sign of "a true ANTIFA devotee". Of course, I understand that it's difficult to address that since you basically also called Trump and many, many people on the right true ANTIFA devotees when you took that shot at the poster on this thread.

You're off the hook now. I won't keep trying to get a straight answer.

You are trying so hard to NOT understand.....

Kreton called for ADDITIONAL violence.... Not in reaction to the shove. And his desire for more violence is based on the political stance of the gentleman punched.
 
Exactly. Comey, Brennan, Susan Rice, Lois Lerner, Barack Obama, Robert Mueller, Peter Strzok, Andy McCabe and hundreds of other leftist figures were never found guilty of lying before Congress and the American people and yet General Flynn was convicted of lying for saying something that was not even a lie and did not even matter if it had been a lie.

What the heck does this have to do with the post you are responding to???
 
You know what they say about indictments and ham sandwiches....

This suggests the story was not nearly as damning as DP Trumpists tried to make it. Grand juries do not often fail to return an indictment. It means they didn't even see probable cause.


______

From the article:



A probable cause affidavit states Lenzner's wife told him to wear the "Make America Great Again" hat throughout the night "so she can see how people treat him." She said they walked to multiple bars in Portland, according to court documents. Okuneye said Lenzner came out of the bar, used an expletive and said, "B****, do you like my hat," . . .

Hauser stated that he disagreed with the political statement of the hat and his group was "mean mugging" Lenzner, when Lenzner asked if they liked his hat. In security footage, Lenzner can be seen pointing to his hat and saying something as he left. A probable cause affidavit states Lenzner told police when Okuneye would not back away, he pushed her back to create distance. Lenzner confirmed to police that he pushed Okuneye, according to court documents. He also reported that after doing so, Hauser punched him in the face with a closed fist unexpectedly. A probable cause affidavit states Hauser told officers he didn’t know how Lenzner got a bloodied nose, saying, “Arms were flying everywhere.” Lenzner’s wife reported both Okuneye and Hauser punched her husband. Lenzner told police that he then backed up and took a “fighting stance” to defend himself, according to court documents.





He went out trying to start trouble, taunted the two with "Bitch, do you like my hat" and the like, then goes to the police after he succeeds in provoking a scuffle. Bait and report, as it were.

He was the a-hole.

Old saying-Go looking for a fight and you will find one
 
You are trying so hard to NOT understand.....

Kreton called for ADDITIONAL violence.... Not in reaction to the shove. And his desire for more violence is based on the political stance of the gentleman punched.


*sigh*

I do understand. It's called "rhetoric". Engaged in liberally by left and right and other -- with Trump included in other. Has nothing to do with ANTIFA. And Trump as president is a lot more likely to get his hateful rhetoric acted on than some nobody on a political forum is. Saying that trouble-seekers like Luke Lenzner deserve to get beaten up is very common.

I'm frequently tempted to engage in such rhetoric about Trump, but I don't want whiny Trump supporters on my tail giving me a hard time for what they turn a blind eye to when Trump does it.
 
*sigh*

I do understand. It's called "rhetoric". Engaged in liberally by left and right and other -- with Trump included in other. Has nothing to do with ANTIFA. And Trump as president is a lot more likely to get his hateful rhetoric acted on than some nobody on a political forum is. Saying that trouble-seekers like Luke Lenzner deserve to get beaten up is very common.

I'm frequently tempted to engage in such rhetoric about Trump, but I don't want whiny Trump supporters on my tail giving me a hard time for what they turn a blind eye to when Trump does it.

Rhetoric that matches ANTIFA actions....
 
Rhetoric that matches ANTIFA actions....


The guy who mowed down the young lady in Charlottesville wasn't ANTIFA. The El Paso Walmart shooter wasn't ANTIFA.

It was ignorantly partisan for you to attribute common barroom-level rhetoric to ANTIFA. Neither the rhetoric nor actions matching the rhetoric are unique to ANTIFA.
 
Re: Charges dropped for two people accused of assaulting man wearing ‘MAGA’ hat in Portland5

Well at least we can agree that him calling her a bitch isnt justification for the punch.

That keaves is with just the shove. Lets explore that. If i come out of a bathroom and shove you out of my way on my way back to my seat and you go tell your bf what i did, does that give him the legsl authority to hit me?

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Nope given the time that has elapsed it would be clear no further threat was present. If the punch came within a few seconds of the push while in a verbal argument then a punch can easily be seen as defending oneself or another.

In this case you have a verbal argument, then a push then very quickly a punch. Given the time frame it would be justified. If the punch came 10 seconds later and the Maya hat guy had backed off it would not be
 
Re: Charges dropped for two people accused of assaulting man wearing ‘MAGA’ hat in Portland5

Nope given the time that has elapsed it would be clear no further threat was present. If the punch came within a few seconds of the push while in a verbal argument then a punch can easily be seen as defending oneself or another.

In this case you have a verbal argument, then a push then very quickly a punch. Given the time frame it would be justified. If the punch came 10 seconds later and the Maya hat guy had backed off it would not be
How do you know how long was between the shove and the punch?

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Re: Charges dropped for two people accused of assaulting man wearing ‘MAGA’ hat in Portland5

How do you know how long was between the shove and the punch?

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Estimate as the article does not state but it would appear the guy who took the punch was right beside the woman. The punch was unexpected so it must have been quick and that mags hat guy did not see him rushing in.
 
The guy who mowed down the young lady in Charlottesville wasn't ANTIFA. The El Paso Walmart shooter wasn't ANTIFA.

It was ignorantly partisan for you to attribute common barroom-level rhetoric to ANTIFA. Neither the rhetoric nor actions matching the rhetoric are unique to ANTIFA.

Wow... Ignorantly partisan.

Interesting use of words.

My response would earn me points that I don't need.
 
Wow... Ignorantly partisan.

Interesting use of words.

My response would earn me points that I don't need.


LOL ... irony.

Thank you for admitting that you too are tempted to inappropriate rhetoric. ;)

Most of us probably are. :mrgreen:

It's not a partisan thing. It's just human.
 
The evidence was found by teh grand jury to be "not True", so the charges were dropped.

The MAGA guy was either lying through his teeth to begin with or said MAGA guy provoked them and then lied through his teeth about it.


That's what it sounded like to me.
 
Re: Charges dropped for two people accused of assaulting man wearing ‘MAGA’ hat in Portland5

Estimate as the article does not state but it would appear the guy who took the punch was right beside the woman. The punch was unexpected so it must have been quick and that mags hat guy did not see him rushing in.
Thats the thing, we dont know. People are guessing at the details. We dont know how long it was between the shove and the punch. We dont know if the guy who shoved her took an agressive stsnce next or a defensive posture. We dont know the nature of the shove either. Did it make her fall down, take a step back, or just shrup it off.

Im not defending the guy but im not gonna condemn him as being the villian without knowing the whole story.

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Re: Charges dropped for two people accused of assaulting man wearing ‘MAGA’ hat in Portland5

Thats the thing, we dont know. People are guessing at the details. We dont know how long it was between the shove and the punch. We dont know if the guy who shoved her took an agressive stsnce next or a defensive posture. We dont know the nature of the shove either. Did it make her fall down, take a step back, or just shrup it off.

Im not defending the guy but im not gonna condemn him as being the villian without knowing the whole story.

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We know at least he and his wife were out there to cause trouble.
 
Re: Charges dropped for two people accused of assaulting man wearing ‘MAGA’ hat in Portland5

We know at least he and his wife were out there to cause trouble.
If wearing a maga hat promotes trouble from the left it is a poor reflection of them, not something to be proud of. I get and understand that the left does not like that Trump is the potus but the intimidation of those who do support him and the approval of it from leftwing bystanders is a big problem. Tere is a trend of incivility thats growing on both sides that is not ealthy. Its one thing to be passoniate sbout your beliefs and to challenge those you disagree with but we also need to maintain a level of tolerance that allows everyones ideas to compete fairly. That seems to be missing.

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