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China retaliates with tariffs on $75 billion of US goods

Hatuey said:
Americans being in pain means Trump is winning.

Trix's argument in a nutshell.

Sent from the Matrioshka in the WH Christmas tree.
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:laughat: ^^^
 
Godric1970 said:
do any of that will result in shrooms over the skies of America .... China will not tolerate interference in internal Chinese matters ... you will have no support from Europe
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Trump has already alienated European support! :doh

We could have stood united via TPP. Now, we're on our own here. Trump is re-ordering the world order established under the Marshal Plan, and not in a good way!
 
ElChupacabra said:
They don't hold all the cards though. They need access to our market as well, so there's definitely room to negotiate on fairer access to theirs; along with tightening IP laws so they're not busy poaching. Playing this game of chicken is what I don't think is the best approach.
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They have the rest of the world to sell to and buy from and that is what they are doing. They can just do more infrastructure like they did in 2008 to weather any downturn from this war. We are not able to do those things. Confronting China alone was incredibly stupid and losing is worse than doing nothing. Trump cannot just go bankrupt and screw the creditors this time.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Especially when winning simply means making the assertion that you are winning. Much like we are constantly winning in the (endless?) wars on poverty, drugs and terrorism - just a few more decades and a few more trillions in funding and total victory is assured.
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All those wars are certainly cash cows for the parties involved. I find it likely that this "war" is having the same effect. Imagine knowing what Trump's tweets are going to be a day ahead of time, you could make some serious money in the stock market.
 
iguanaman said:
Trump got us into a war we cannot win because he did not think it through. And the rest of the world can just laugh at our pain and blame us for tanking the world's economy for nothing.
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Every bit of the trump/mcconnell decimation of our Nation must be tied to every GOP running for re-election and election in 2020, as well as in important states like Virginia this year.

GOP Senators in SC, NC, GA, and IA are specifically on this trade firing line, as well as those in CO, AZ, ME, MT, KY and TX. The 2014 Senate elections must be reversed next year.
 
Chomsky said:
Trump has already alienated European support! :doh

We could have stood united via TPP. Now, we're on our own here. Trump is re-ordering the world order established under the Marshal Plan, and not in a good way!
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South Korea and Japan are having an economic trade war between them that is moving into security issues. South Korea pulled out of a security sharing deal with Japan
 
ElChupacabra said:
Looking at the long game, the Chinese have the option of making waves for the next few months and see what kind of impact it has on our economy since Trump needs it to be strong across the board. Boasting about a great economy won't mean so much if the public starts feeling it in their wallets.
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Agreed. The cards are all stacked against Trump. He badly miscalculated. Like I said in my OP, he's best to declare victory & let the year ride itself out into the election. He can then resume his war after re-election, when he's a lame duck & unconstrained by politics.

But Xi knows all this, and I wouldn't doubt if he doesn't mind seeing Trump suffer and going into political jeopardy. Trump capitulated, and in-turn China escalated! They now seem to be the aggressor!
 
Mr Person said:
What a load of (typical) hyper-partisan horse ****. Discussing the natural consequences of stupid actions by Trump =/= hoping he crashes the economy.



No matter how much you have been conditioned to hate liberals, you should for your soul's sake stop pissing all over the commandment against bearing false witness.
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Bearing false witness is a mainstay for many Conservatives.

Remember when they used to pretend they cared about family values? And that they didn't like deficit spending? Now we're discovering they actually like socialism, as Trump gives orders to companies. :lamo

Oddly enough, many have swung 180 degrees on those values since the color of the POTUS's skin changed. Go figure.
 
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iguanaman said:
They have the rest of the world to sell to and buy from and that is what they are doing. They can just do more infrastructure like they did in 2008 to weather any downturn from this war. We are not able to do those things. Confronting China alone was incredibly stupid and losing is worse than doing nothing. Trump cannot just go bankrupt and screw the creditors this time.
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Yes, and I think in the short term this will work for them; I don't, however, think they're looking at a trade scenario without access to the US market over the long term. I do agree that confronting them alone wasn't the best maneuver. Getting support from the EU and other trade partners would have created a much tighter noose.
 
Chomsky said:
Source: (CNN) China retaliates with tariffs on $75 billion of US goods

I'm not sure what more can be said here. After getting Trump to blink & back down last week during U.S. crashing stock & bond markets, it seems China is now shifting gears and firmly taking the offense in escalating the trade & currency wars.

U.S. manufacturing has contracted for the first time in a decade, and the heightening trade war will only exasperate the contraction. The American consumer is keeping the economy afloat, but a contracting manufacturing sector will eventually trickle-down to less consumer spending. Obviously the manufacturing sector isn't as large a component of the U.S. economy as in days gone by, but it still is an important part of our economy.

It's my opinion that Trump has lost his self-inflicted trade war, and needs to declare victory and move on to something else. That is, if he wants to have an economy commensurate with his gaining re-election.

Additional relevance: For what it's worth, I just checked and the Dow is down nearly 600 pts and the yield curve just inverted again ... oh well ...
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I support Trump's efforts, because I agree when he states this was a long time coming, and should have been done before.

The "pain" was caused by no prior Administration taking steps to deal with the growing problems caused by Chinese economic activities.

That goes for BOTH Parties, regardless of which held office.

Chinese labor, lack of environmental/safety regulation, and cheap resources were a boon to Corporate interests, whose only long-term views revolve around how to increase THEIR profits and the devil with anything else.

There were all sorts of steps that could have been taken when establishing past trade agreements, monitoring economic trends, and contrasting tariffs. People forget that Chinese tariffs were already twice as high on US products as ours were on theirs pre-Trump.

They have been stealing and strong-arming intellectual property, undercutting markets, and playing the long game to our short one.

So yes, I agree that now it is going to hurt...A LOT! That's because they have their claws in sooooo deeply that pulling them out will be more painful than had preventive action been taken in time.

I say we need to bear it, and keep pushing until we win. IMO had it been any other President aside from Trump, people (and the MSM) would be singing a different tune.

But because it IS Trump, then IMO some people wish for failure just to get him out of office. The problem then is that they have to accept rolling over to future Chinese efforts and we will suffer all the more after.
 
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digsbe said:
There is going to be some economic pain as we challenge China and try to de-couple the economies. However, it must be done and the price must be paid. Trading with China and boosting their economy is like enabling the Nazis, China must be confronted and opposed if not just because of how they abuse on trade, but because they pose a major threat to global/national security, democracy and commit major human rights violations.
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At last! Some common sense.
 
Linc said:
GOPs lost 42 moderate House seats last year because their base did NOT turn out. Specifically, we saw saw this with 2 House seats in Iowa, one in Oklahoma and one in South Carolina.

Don’t expect this mythical trump base to turn out in 2020 in farm country. Farm banks, implement dealers, patriotic family farmers and rural communities have all been decimated by trump’s insane trade policies, including pulling out of TPP.

Alt-trumpists didn’t pay attention to the Koch brothers on tariff wars, which accelerated the Great Depression. When public pensions from federal to state to local start going bankrupt next decade, we’ll indeed be in another Great Depression.
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We're all hit by this. You have your farming community, and I have older family members that are dependent upon a market component for their retirement. The market has not had a net gain in nearly two years.

(BTW, the farmers downstate are getting hit pretty hard. We'll see if they stick for Trump, not that he's likely to win the state regardless)
 
JustHanging said:
All those wars are certainly cash cows for the parties involved. I find it likely that this "war" is having the same effect. Imagine knowing what Trump's tweets are going to be a day ahead of time, you could make some serious money in the stock market.
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Yep, I find it extremely interesting that M4A "demands" that private for-profit industry be eliminated when no such nonsense was required for receipt of SNAP, infrastructure or DoD (MIC?) federal spending.
 
Chomsky said:
You can't "decouple" from the global economy.
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There are other countries that make most of what China does. Truth is China can't afford to lose our business. They'll fold eventually.
 
iguanaman said:
Trump got us into a war we cannot win because he did not think it through. And the rest of the world can just laugh at our pain and blame us for tanking the world's economy for nothing.
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No. The rest of the world plunges into a recession, and hates our guts even more than they did in '08!
 
Bucky said:
His tweet today was by far his worst in his presidency. Hopefully, he DOES NOT DOUBLE DOWN this afternoon.
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Day/folder 946 will be worse than day/folder 945. Etc. I’d like to see each DPoster list their location and CD, as I have now just done. I live in Reagan country IL. I know what farmers are going through here and where my in-laws farm in Iowa.

Since our politicians can no longer do IKE infrastructure, it’s up to folks like us to list what Infrastructure is desperately needed in our states and CDs. It’s up to us to speak of economic conditions where we live.

What we can’t control is what #45 will do with foreign policy in the world and his upcoming actions at the G6 plus one. What we do know is that he will once again embarrass our Nation and create more world turmoil. Which dictators benefit from that?
 
iguanaman said:
They have the rest of the world to sell to and buy from and that is what they are doing. They can just do more infrastructure like they did in 2008 to weather any downturn from this war. We are not able to do those things. Confronting China alone was incredibly stupid and losing is worse than doing nothing. Trump cannot just go bankrupt and screw the creditors this time.
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Exactly. That's what TPP was for. All that work now down the drain ...
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
South Korea and Japan are having an economic trade war between them that is moving into security issues. South Korea pulled out of a security sharing deal with Japan
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Not to mention India and Pakistan who are also ramping up old wounds. There was a time when we would broker disputes to derail them before they got dangerous. Now they are on their own and we are at risk because of it.
 
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