• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

IRS can now revoke U.S. passports over back taxes

SDET said:
It establishes that escaping the country is no longer an option. It also establishes that travel or leaving the country is not a right. This opens the door to more travel restrictions on US citizens. It puts the USA on the same level as a Communist country. Not paying Federal taxes in not a crime. People go to prison for failure to properly file their tax forms.
Click to expand...

Funny that you sayy escaping. Pay your bill, cowards "escape"
 
SDET said:
The right to a passport should be absolute. Why not revoke their birth certificate and declare them a non-person?
Click to expand...

False equivalence.
 
SDET said:
It establishes that escaping the country is no longer an option. It also establishes that travel or leaving the country is not a right. This opens the door to more travel restrictions on US citizens. It puts the USA on the same level as a Communist country. Not paying Federal taxes in not a crime. People go to prison for failure to properly file their tax forms.
Click to expand...

When Failure to Pay Taxes Becomes a Crime

Failure to pay taxes or file a return is itself a crime. However, the IRS would rather work with you and reach a settlement before seeking criminal charges. If you derive your income from illegal sources, it is more likely that the IRS will recommend prosecution (and further investigation into illegally obtained income could also result in fraud or racketeering charges). The more blatantly fraudulent your behavior has been, the more likely the IRS is to prosecute you. For example, you would likely be prosecuted for failing to file returns year after year, despite repeated contacts by the IRS.

In order to convict you of a tax crime, the IRS does not have to prove the exact amount you owe. But such charges most often come after the agency conducts an audit of your income and financial situation. Sometimes they're filed after a tax collector detects evasion or fraud. In any event; if the IRS suspects criminal nonpayment (or underpayment) of taxes, it will start with a "primary investigation" to determine whether criminal charges should indeed be filed. If the case progresses, the IRS will initiate a "subject criminal investigation."
The special agent in charge of a particular investigation will work closely with IRS legal counsel to ensure it's following protocol and properly identifying the legal issues involved. Finally, the IRS will refer the case to the Justice Department's Tax Division.
 
SDET said:
It establishes that escaping the country is no longer an option. It also establishes that travel or leaving the country is not a right. This opens the door to more travel restrictions on US citizens. It puts the USA on the same level as a Communist country. Not paying Federal taxes in not a crime. People go to prison for failure to properly file their tax forms.
Click to expand...

As a US citizen what travel restrictions do you have?
Have you ever been denied travel outside the US?
What travel restrictions have other US citizens encounter?
 
Lord of Planar said:
Let them leave. If they do, don't allow them to come back until paid.
Click to expand...

I know someone that is working a case like that...he hasn't paid child support and is in Hong Kong and was denied his passport to come back to the US. Funny part, he paid, then the airport was closed.
 
In order to travel to Cuba, it's required to keep a detailed log of "support for the Cuban people" and prove that you're not engaged in any tourist activities.

Outlook said:
As a US citizen what travel restrictions do you have?
Have you ever been denied travel outside the US?
What travel restrictions have other US citizens encounter?
Click to expand...
 
Outlook said:
52K is a lot of money in back taxes.
400,000 people out of 350 million is a drop in the bucket.
I have no sympathy for the 400,000 people who have not paid their taxes.
Click to expand...

I would have no sympathy for those who are able to pay their taxes, but decide not to.

However, some people, owing to circumstance beyond their control, are unable to. I'd cut them some slack.

What happens if you don't pay a traffic ticket? Your license is suspended.
What happens if you don't pay your child support? You can be thrown in jail.
What happens if you don't pay your car invoice? They will repossess your car.

What happens if you don't pay your taxes? You can't travel, which is okay because you can't afford to travel if you owe the government over 52K.
Click to expand...

Blanket assumptions are almost always untrue or half truths, at best. I can imagine many a rich guy owing that much in taxes and has plenty to travel on.

In the meantime...

What about the person who owes money in taxes because new circumstances in their old age find them unable to pay back taxes, and the only place they can afford to live is in Mexico or Panama?

I believe that for the poor in such circumstance, exceptions should be provided.
 
Last edited:
Nothing having to do with the IRS is black and white.

There are a lot of people where the IRS says they owe money when they don't.

I don't know at what point the passport would be revoked, but a fight with the IRS can take years and in all that time, you might not be able to travel if the IRS says you owe money.

Doesn't sound like a good plan.
 
beefheart said:
False equivalence.
Click to expand...

Umm, no it’s not.

You’re talking about revoking someone’s fundamental rights over technical paperwork violations. You’ve in effect put them in serfdom
 
WillyPete said:
I dunno. If a tax dodger is going to thumb their nose at the federal government, I don't see why the authorities shouldn't use the leverage they have to encourage people to make it right. The point isn't to restrict movement, but to compel payment.

While I don't really support broad travel restrictions, I can certainly understand the feds making a distinction between travel inside versus outside the country.

What does large scale failure to pay taxes (effectively stealing from everyone) signify about our nation? Hell, we're probably doing other countries a favor, blocking tax hustlers from going international.
Click to expand...
Should we deny passports to people on welfare? How about democrat politicians? Because they steal more from the working class then just about anyone who’s cheating their taxes. In fact if you’re poor you are cheating your taxes in effect because you’re not paying any.
 
Carjosse said:
Canada has the right to enter or leave the country in our constitution however authorities still have the power to revoke passports if someone is a wanted criminal or a flight risk. I assume that is the logic here, the person is a flight risk.

Why do you believe there should be no penalty to not paying your taxes and authorities should not enforce it?
Click to expand...

That’s not saying there should be no penalty. If someone wants to leave the country and another country will admit him then he’s out of the US not using our services and so the moral argument of taxes doesn’t apply.

If he violates another country’s immigration laws that’s country B’s problem

And if he later attempts to return to the US or is deported after blowing off taxes for an indefinite period of time he can be arrested at passport control.

So I don’t really see why a passport revokation is necessary.

And if I were rich enough that I could end up owing that much in taxes I would’ve found a country willing to give me status and get a second passport anyway. I’ve given serious thought to emigrating to Chile just for this reason
 
EMNofSeattle said:
That’s not saying there should be no penalty. If someone wants to leave the country and another country will admit him then he’s out of the US not using our services and so the moral argument of taxes doesn’t apply.

If he violates another country’s immigration laws that’s country B’s problem

And if he later attempts to return to the US or is deported after blowing off taxes for an indefinite period of time he can be arrested at passport control.

So I don’t really see why a passport revokation is necessary.

And if I were rich enough that I could end up owing that much in taxes I would’ve found a country willing to give me status and get a second passport anyway. I’ve given serious thought to emigrating to Chile just for this reason
Click to expand...

So if you leave a restaurant without paying no one should be able to stop you?
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Should we deny passports to people on welfare? How about democrat politicians? Because they steal more from the working class then just about anyone who’s cheating their taxes. In fact if you’re poor you are cheating your taxes in effect because you’re not paying any.
Click to expand...

I think anyone that is behind $52k on their taxes should pay their taxes. How they got there doesn't interest me much.

If you have a tax debt it's on you to pay it, and if you willfully avoid paying it you are a thief. Having your passport pulled is small potatoes compared to what you deserve.

And the idea that it's somehow alright for a person with a decent income to dodge taxes because poor folks don't owe any is just proof that humans can rationalize anything.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yep, kind of like driving without a license is declared to be a much more serious offense than driving 50 mph in a 25 mph zone. The message is clear - your responsibility (sworn duty?) to financially support the state is more important than posing a danger to mere common folks.
Click to expand...

I mean....the government certainly hates when it doesn't get paid.
 
WillyPete said:
I dunno. If a tax dodger is going to thumb their nose at the federal government, I don't see why the authorities shouldn't use the leverage they have to encourage people to make it right. The point isn't to restrict movement, but to compel payment.

While I don't really support broad travel restrictions, I can certainly understand the feds making a distinction between travel inside versus outside the country.

What does large scale failure to pay taxes (effectively stealing from everyone) signify about our nation? Hell, we're probably doing other countries a favor, blocking tax hustlers from going international.
Click to expand...

The problem as I see it is that's a fairly small amount of money, and lots of people get caught up in tax disputes, have trouble working them out, and it has nothing to do with inability to pay or other issues.

It just seems to me that tax disputes with IRS are tax disputes and should remain the province of tax disputes. If IRS thinks a significant tax liability is on the line with foreign travel, then it should be able to individually petition the DoJ to deny travel privileges to avoid something like a flight risk, but not as a broad enforcement tool that they do administratively with a click of a mouse. The IRS can already levy on bank accounts, paychecks, and more to collect overdue taxes. I don't see how this BIG blunt tool is needed. Seems like a massive overreach to me.
 
Mason66 said:
Nothing having to do with the IRS is black and white.

There are a lot of people where the IRS says they owe money when they don't.

I don't know at what point the passport would be revoked, but a fight with the IRS can take years and in all that time, you might not be able to travel if the IRS says you owe money.

Doesn't sound like a good plan.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the point. :peace

I'm fine with IRS making individual determinations with regard to specific taxpayers who are, apparently, just unwilling to pay back taxes. But that's not what they're doing.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Should we deny passports to people on welfare? How about democrat politicians? Because they steal more from the working class then just about anyone who’s cheating their taxes. In fact if you’re poor you are cheating your taxes in effect because you’re not paying any.
Click to expand...

LOL. We should assume that's sarcasm, but I'm afraid you're being serious.

No, you're not "cheating on your taxes in effect" by following the letter and intent of our tax laws.
 
WillyPete said:
I think anyone that is behind $52k on their taxes should pay their taxes. How they got there doesn't interest me much.

If you have a tax debt it's on you to pay it, and if you willfully avoid paying it you are a thief. Having your passport pulled is small potatoes compared to what you deserve.

And the idea that it's somehow alright for a person with a decent income to dodge taxes because poor folks don't owe any is just proof that humans can rationalize anything.
Click to expand...

Lots of people get there by having honest disputes with IRS about what they owe. That's a fairly small amount in a lot of cases. If you're a business and have just ONE major issue with IRS, a year or two, plus interest and penalties, can add up to $52k in a hurry, for a legitimately 'small' business. Sometimes the IRS issues a demand letter and the fight continues for months or years later.

Let's put this another way. When I was in a then Big Eight firm, at least a large number, if not majority, of IRS notices I dealt with were larger than $52k. And I don't think there's a single one that was resolved at that number. Almost always we argued and got significant reductions off the alleged amount. Furthermore, ordinary people are at a huge disadvantage in dealing with IRS. It's not unusual at all IME to get someone seeking help for the first time after that demand letter, after efforts on their own to resolve the issue failed.

So many people impacted simply aren't just deadbeats who don't want to pay or set up payment plans, but people caught in the jaws of the IRS system. And it's not kind to non-professional or those of us who are familiar with the system. In our own case, we spent YEARS resolving issues related to identity theft. It just resolved last month, and to confirm that I had to spend 72 minutes on hold, just to reach a live person. We filed a return after identify theft via fax to a number they told us to use, they lost it, assessed penalties and interest because an overpayment from that lost return wasn't credited. Filed that return, again, they refunded the overpayment, which meant we were 5 figures underpaid for the next year. So we sent back the refund, etc. Point is at any point they could have issued a demand letter and then we get travel banned.

All this was done to my wife and I who are both CPAs, both have Masters in Tax, who are tax preparers, I've spent 30 years dealing with IRS and so know what to do. People who aren't experienced can easily get jammed up and WANT to do the right thing.
 
digsbe said:
I'd imagine this is likely due to flight risk, someone getting a visa/permanent residency in another country and moving out to avoid back taxes.

I think it's a tad draconian, but also consider the fact that you don't have the freedom to enter another country since it's up to the other country's standards to let you in. People with criminal histories for things like DUI's, misdemeanor thefts, etc. are commonly barred from entering other countries.
Click to expand...

I'm needing a link.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom