• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

House passes bill that would raise the federal minimum wage to $15

MTAtech said:
I am very happy that you beat the odds. That's not the experience of most workers.

US%2BHousehold%2Bincome%2B2011.jpg
Click to expand...

I only beat the odd from perseverance and luck. We lost too many family wage jobs when our free trade deals caused so many things to be made in other nations, rather than manufactured here.

How many things today do you buy that are not "made in China" or some other country?

You can thank president Clinton for those job losses.
 
sjmay said:
Because I am pointing out, that living in that area, and paying that much IS A CHOICE.

No one is forcing them to, they are CHOOSING to.
Click to expand...

Nobody said anyone was forcing them to CHOOSE to live there. Any other strawmen you want to build?
 
element94 said:
What's your hourly wage? Just curious.
Click to expand...

now or before?

now, i dont have one....i own the place.....and unless it makes money, i wont make money

at my old job....approx $ 117 an hour but i was salary + bonus so it was never calculated that way
 
tres borrachos said:
Nobody said anyone was forcing them to CHOOSE to live there. Any other strawmen you want to build?
Click to expand...

You are complaining about not being able to afford rent but only in the poorest of locations.....because of low wages.

All I am pointing out is, that's a CHOICE they make. They don't HAVE to live there, there are options.
 
Lord of Planar said:
I only beat the odd from perseverance and luck. We lost too many family wage jobs when our free trade deals caused so many things to be made in other nations, rather than manufactured here.

How many things today do you buy that are not "made in China" or some other country?

You can thank president Clinton for those job losses.
Click to expand...
According to the numbers, manufacturing jobs increased during Clinton's terms. It took a dive at about 2000.

fredgraph.png
 
sjmay said:
You are complaining about not being able to afford rent but only in the poorest of locations.....because of low wages.

All I am pointing out is, that's a CHOICE they make. They don't HAVE to live there, there are options.
Click to expand...

Will you take your stupid strawman to another thread?
 
MTAtech said:
According to the numbers, manufacturing jobs increased during Clinton's terms. It took a dive at about 2000.

fredgraph.png
Click to expand...

Yes, it did.

I take it you don't realize it takes years to design and build manufacturing facilities.

This is a fallacy of most people arguing politics. They argue as if a change in policy changes the outcomes overnight.

It usually takes several years to see the effects of policy, then the next president gets the credit or blame.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Yes, it did.

I take it you don't realize it takes years to design and build manufacturing facilities.

This is a fallacy of most people arguing politics. They argue as if a change in policy changes the outcomes overnight.

It usually takes several years to see the effects of policy, then the next president gets the credit or blame.
Click to expand...

That entire argument gets used for about every facet of government and the economy. It does take time to get policy in place and sometimes it takes a longer time to see the effects. The roll back of economic regulation, on business, trade, manufacturing, mining, all had fairly quick reaction time because it simply meant stopping something as opposed to imposing some new regulation. Of course democrats don't want to admit this or any of the positive economic effects since Trumps election. Another reason people look at them and doubt their sincerity, they cannot be honest.
 
i'm not opposed to a higher minimum raise but better training and job selection could be more important. Working the window at a fast food joint isn't meant to be a career job. Part of our problem with low wages is unskilled, untrained labor. Folks need to get out of high school with a diploma, not get pregnant out of wedlock, and find a full time job. Those three things would help a lot.
 
sjmay said:
LOL you're right, I was never homeless.....never moved door to door with friends....because guess what...that's what I HAD TO DO.

I took every job you can think of, I wasn't picky....you do what you have to...
Click to expand...
Good for you, I am glad that you were and are content, but that does not change the reality you deny, that many do not have the opportunity and or the guidance to make it.

But yea, I've never been in the real world...
Click to expand...
It shows.

Like I said, everything you do, is a sum of your choices
Click to expand...
Except that not all have the same choices.

only the weak blame others.
Click to expand...
Yet the existence of the weak is real as it is the existence of those who just do not have the opportunities others have. Only the ignorant dismiss that which they do not understand or experience and it takes a real bastard to deny their fellow man the means for a basic living.
 
prometeus said:
Good for you, I am glad that you were and are content, but that does not change the reality you deny, that many do not have the opportunity and or the guidance to make it.

It shows.

Except that not all have the same choices.

Yet the existence of the weak is real as it is the existence of those who just do not have the opportunities others have. Only the ignorant dismiss that which they do not understand or experience and it takes a real bastard to deny their fellow man the means for a basic living.
Click to expand...


No one said they have the same choices, but they DO HAVE CHOICES...

Part of it is about opportunities, but bigger part of it is, putting yourself in a spot to take advantage of those opportunities when they come up, and most people don't have the stomach for it.

No one is denying anyone the means for a basic living. But those minimum wage jobs everyone is so worried about, are not meant to be CAREER JOBS. IF you raise the minimum wage to stupid amounts, THOSE JOBS WILL DISAPPEAR.

Instead of raising minimum wage, invest in job training, education, make it low cost, make it free. Let the people who CHOOSE to take advantage of it, take advantage of it. I guarantee you there will be people who won't do it.
 
Winston said:
Is it the farmer's responsibility to "make sure their labor generates more money"? Because Trump (who you support) wrote them a check when their labor didn't make them squat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

whataboutism at its worst.
 
sjmay said:
No one said they have the same choices, but they DO HAVE CHOICES...
Click to expand...
Can you even fathom how stupid that statement is?

No one is denying anyone the means for a basic living. But those minimum wage jobs everyone is so worried about, are not meant to be CAREER JOBS.
Click to expand...
Some people are only capable of that.

Instead of raising minimum wage, invest in job training, education, make it low cost, make it free. Let the people who CHOOSE to take advantage of it, take advantage of it.
Click to expand...
That is also very important.

I guarantee you there will be people who won't do it.
Click to expand...
Undoubtedly, but I guarantee you that it will only be a a small percentage.
 
I have a question for democrats. Knowing that this bill likely will not make it through the Senate, are democrats serious about it's passage? I ask this because during the first two years of the Obama administration, they easily could have raised the minimum wage but since they controlled the House, Senate and Presidency. Yet, they did not do so. Just as they did nothing during the same period to take care of immigration or the dreamers. They did get a terribly expensive and almost unusable healthcare system in place on the back of the lie, "if you like your coverage you can keep it, if you like your doctor you can keep them".
 
Democrats have to figure out how to get the unemployment rates back up one way or another. I guess this is the best idea they could come up with.
 
TurtleDude said:
whataboutism at its worst.
Click to expand...

Not really. One set of people you frame as leeches another set of people you frame as what? are you prepared to call farmers who need help leeches too Turtle? If you apply the turtle dude principle evenly.. rotting crops should lead to rotting bank accounts and Americas farmers all going into IT or something marketable. Right? That's what the reasonable folk would do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
TurtleDude said:
I think it is far more honest to court voters by telling them that the government will take less of what they MAKE than it is for the scum on the left to buy votes by promising them wealth of others.
Click to expand...

No, its not when you are running a deficit. If you take a political action to buy votes that causes the deficit to increase, you are buying votes with the governments money. There is no difference if you run up the deficit with spending or forgoing revenue in the form of tax cuts.
 
upsideguy said:
No, its not when you are running a deficit. If you take a political action to buy votes that causes the deficit to increase, you are buying votes with the governments money. There is no difference if you run up the deficit with spending or forgoing revenue in the form of tax cuts.
Click to expand...

I disagree but I also want the federal government to be about half the size it is now
 
prometeus said:
Can you even fathom how stupid that statement is?

Some people are only capable of that.

That is also very important.

Undoubtedly, but I guarantee you that it will only be a a small percentage.
Click to expand...

LOL so what you are saying.....is that some people, don't have any choices....at all....no matter what.....that's just utter BS.
 
TurtleDude said:
I disagree but I also want the federal government to be about half the size it is now
Click to expand...
You can't seriously believe that we as a nation could function in today's world with a government half of what we have now? Just out of curiosity, what would you eliminate?
 
prometeus said:
You can't seriously believe that we as a nation could function in today's world with a government half of what we have now? Just out of curiosity, what would you eliminate?
Click to expand...

Maybe not half....but DEFINITELY reduced.....you would have States pick up a lot of what the Federal has taken over.....you can reduce the Federal dramatically, imo.
 
ludin said:
Yep like people saying that they need to make 15 an hour.
when you raise the floor all you do is set a new floor and all of the prices rise to match it.
then you will be complaining that prices are too high when the grocery store can't charge 2.5 for a loaf of bread
they now charge 4.50 to pay the stock boy whose wage jump 100%.
Click to expand...

I am not debating the level of increase. I am saying that the fed increase of minimum wage in this economy is sustainable

So why should they make the same money as an entry level professional or a entry level skilled laborer?
Click to expand...

Because greed is good as capitalists say and because I care more about the greed of someone who wants to finish earlier his studies or feed his family than the greed of a guy who is already financially secured

15 will not make him pay off that student loan easier.
all it does is cut skilled and professional labor pay downward.
Click to expand...

I did not say student loan. I said student tuition. A $15 will also help a student put more effort to studies and less to work which means that he will finish his studies earlier and this will help also with accruing less loans

i am not going to see an 100% increase in my pay.
i am not going to get a raise in my pay because minimum wage goes up.

my job and pay get devalued, and my job is way harder than flipping burgers and putting groceries in a bag.
this will do nothing but raise prices and cost of services higher than they were defeating any purpose.

worse it will eliminate up to 3m jobs. what do you tell those people who are going to lose their job?
not only that you make it way more difficult on small business owners and new start ups that need
to have a lot of cash flow early.
Click to expand...

Again, this is not about debating if increase to $15 is reasonable or not. Even I expressed reservations about this level of increase in earlier posts. My point was to push back against the idea that federal minimum wage should not be increased.
 
pamak said:
I am not debating the level of increase. I am saying that the fed increase of minimum wage in this economy is sustainable



Because greed is good as capitalists say and because I care more about the greed of someone who wants to finish earlier his studies or feed his family than the greed of a guy who is already financially secured



I did not say student loan. I said student tuition. A $15 will also help a student put more effort to studies and less to work which means that he will finish his studies earlier and this will help also with accruing less loans



Again, this is not about debating if increase to $15 is reasonable or not. Even I expressed reservations about this level of increase in earlier posts. My point was to push back against the idea that federal minimum wage should not be increased.
Click to expand...

Federal should not....each State can do as they wish, which is much more sustainable to an economy than making sure CA workers are paid the same as WV workers etc.
 
gdgyva said:
how the **** am i limiting the choices of what people can make

they can take different jobs....they can tell their boss to go jump into the lake

life is ALL about choices

my employees dont have to work for me....they choose to work for me

why? because the other similar jobs around here : A...pay less than i do....B...because i am a great guy

c'mon make your choice....is it A or B

geesh....
Click to expand...

You see people as only employees and not as being also citizens and voters. Politics is ALWAYS part of the economy and political choices (including raising the minimum wage) are part of the choices people have to address economic issues. It makes no sense to operate under laws such as those related to limited liability of LLCs and Corporations and then think that politics should be kept out of the economy when some voters think that they should change the rules of the game though pro-labor legislation.
 
Last edited:
sjmay said:
Federal should not....each State can do as they wish, which is much more sustainable to an economy than making sure CA workers are paid the same as WV workers etc.
Click to expand...

I said before that it is not that easy to make an argument about the autonomy of the states because you like it or not, states' actions regarding their minimum wage affects other states too. When many poor states with very low minimum wage which keeps many workers below the federal level of poverty collect more dollars from the federal government to address such poverty than what the residents in these states contribute to the federal coffers, we have effectively transfer of wealth through federal taxation from states with higher minimum wages to states with lower minimum wage.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom