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American Nazis protested a Holocaust remembrance event. ...

I bet everyone of the tiny group with NAZI flags are undercover officers. Same half dozen men with police haircuts at every protest. While protesters often are arrested or asked for IDs, notice how that few men are NEVER questions by any media outlet, NEVER questioned by the police, NEVER questioned by the press. Do you really believe on reporter with a camera crew would try to interview any of them - ever at any protest.

This practice by law enforcement - federal, state or local - to poise as Nazis, KKK etc trying to smoke out any actual Nazi by creating a group he could join into to learn who he is and of any criminal intentions should be a serious criminal offense. Law enforcement should not allowed to corrupt our political system in the name of some other good reason such as claiming they are doing surveillance and undercover work.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
You lose.

The Nazis did NOT want people to wonder why hatred and persecution had become the norm.

The Nazis did NOT want people to think about whether they wanted to live in a society where hatred and persecution had become the norm.

The Nazis did NOT want people to think about what they could to so that hatred and persecution were no longer the norm.

The Nazis did NOT want people to actually do what they could to change society so that hatred and persecution were no longer the norm.

HOWEVER, the Nazis DID want people to worship "The Leader" and believe anything that "The Leader" said, and do whatever "The Leader" said to do. Why? Because the Nazis promised to "Make Germany Great Again" and told the German people that all of the ills of their current situation were caused by "THOSE People" (and by people who supported political parties other than the NSDAP).

PS - What the Nazis did NOT bother to tell the German people was that the policies of "The Leader" which were "bringing prosperity" were also bankrupting the country.
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YOU think Trump is a Nazi with a Jewish daughter and Jewish grandkids?
 
Sweden said:
Telling students that some people - like the odious and possibly mad English academic David Iving - deny the reality of the holocaust is not 'supporting holocaust denial'.
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A little local academic history is in order. A complaint was made against Dr. Link regarding assigning reading material from holocaust deniers. An investigation ensued. As a result of that investigation Dr. Link was suspended a semester. The implication was, and remains, that Dr. Link did not assign the reading to expose the unreality of holocaust deniers, but as an "alternate theory" to existing history (reality). It is hard to determine from this remove which side Dr. Link was actually on, but there is no question which side the Nazi protesters were on, nor which side some of the holocaust remembrance participants were on (Re: Dr. Link).
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
But if you don't read it then you don't see the "proof" that all of those so-called "documents" are fake and that the so-called "eyewitnesses" were lying (and lying because they were paid to lie) - will you?
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Have you been communicating with a congresswomen from Michigan again?
 
Trump said:
YOU think Trump is a Nazi with a Jewish daughter and Jewish grandkids?
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What part of those things were his decision?
 
MTAtech said:
What our white supremacist American nationalist friend was suggesting is that Holocaust denial is merely an alternative viewpoint, of equal validity to what actually happened, and should be taught side-by-side with the actual facts.
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MTAtech said:
That’s exactly what AmNat was suggesting. It’s an alternative theory, according to him, that should be taught.
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Your powers of mind reading are really quite astounding. I didn't even that's what I thought.

MTAtech said:
Oh really. May I direct you to post #11, below:
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Do you not know what a graduate student is?

TU Curmudgeon said:
That would actually depend on exactly how the material was presented.

For example "Examine the documentary evidence upon which __[fill in the blank]__'s book "__[fill in the blank]__" is based, then compare and contrast it with the documentary evidence upon which the opposite of it is based." might well be is a valid assignment while simply "Read __[fill in the blank]__'s book "__[fill in the blank]__" might well not be.

On your second point, the current trend to eradicate any mention of any person who did anything at all that is (by today's standards) offensive is, in my opinion total dreck.
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I agree. And any academic would agree wrt historical revisionism in general. What I'm saying is that there shouldn't be special categories, dictated by political considerations, where such critical analysis is prohibited.
 
Tigerace117 said:
You liked your argument so much you decided to post it twice?

The far more important reason to defeating the Germans was to end the slaughter of millions of innocent people and liberate the numerous countries they and their allies had occupied. Establishing the idea of "freedom from consequence" was much lower down on the rungs.

The U.K. doesn't present it in their schools as a legitimate theory that one should consider either.

In other words, your post is little more than "waah!". Noted.
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let us see. Do you think that university - not 'schools' - libraries should have Mein Kamp on their shelves? And works by Marx and his mass murdering followers, Stalin and Mao? And that evil little psychopath Che Guavera? I do; and I do not or one second think that this means that the library would be endorsing either Naziism or Communism. Serious libraries should be repositories of all that has been though and written down, bad as well as good.

But perhaps you are indifferent to these questions as your posts suggest you spend little, if any, time in libraries.
 
Lursa said:
What part of those things were his decision?
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The fact Trump raised a loving caring daughter with no hatred for the Jewish people to start....and the fact his son-in-law and daughter remain 2 of his closest advisors...kinda his decision.

geez...on tilt
 
AmNat said:
It’s not appropriate for academic arguments to be dealt with by shunning. As long as a person isn’t using crackpot tactics (asserting that an alternate theory is the proven truth, accusing colleagues of a conspiracy to hide evidence, imputing bad motives to those who disagree, etc.), they should be given a hearing. That is necessary to ensure that secular academia remains self-correcting.

Ad hominem. Nazis also believe the Earth is round and that water is wet.
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It is appropriate to deal with them by shunning, deny them legitimacy because as soon as you portray Holocaust denial as a valid viewpoint it means you are saying that they could possibly be correct. That is how academia needs to deal with these kinds of dangerous conspiracy theories. It is no different than rejecting flat earthers from scientific discourse, they use the exact same tactics and ideas as flat earthers. They are crackpots: they assert that the Holocaust never happened, they accuse people of creating the Holocaust as a Jewish conspiracy and try to come up with their own easily debunked evidence, saying that those who recognize the Holocaust are merely pawns of some Jewish world order and want to undermine the White race and the greatness of Nazism. Just replace the Holocaust with a round earth and Jews with NASA and you have flat earthers.

You are advocating for holocaust denial, at best Holocaust denial is fanatical anti-semitism, at worst it is Neo-Nazism. What other possible motivation is there to holocaust denial? It is certainly not the truth. Why are you so invested in holocaust denial being recognized as a legitimate viewpoint?
 
joko104 said:
I bet everyone of the tiny group with NAZI flags are undercover officers. Same half dozen men with police haircuts at every protest. While protesters often are arrested or asked for IDs, notice how that few men are NEVER questions by any media outlet, NEVER questioned by the police, NEVER questioned by the press. Do you really believe on reporter with a camera crew would try to interview any of them - ever at any protest.

This practice by law enforcement - federal, state or local - to poise as Nazis, KKK etc trying to smoke out any actual Nazi by creating a group he could join into to learn who he is and of any criminal intentions should be a serious criminal offense. Law enforcement should not allowed to corrupt our political system in the name of some other good reason such as claiming they are doing surveillance and undercover work.
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I disagree. For example the British security services have saved very many lives by infiltrating Islamic terrorist networks.
 
Trump said:
The fact Trump raised a loving caring daughter with no hatred for the Jewish people to start....and the fact his son-in-law and daughter remain 2 of his closest advisors...kinda his decision.

geez...on tilt
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I cant agree that any of those things are facts! :lamo

But a lapdog-type imagination is fairly common in his followers.
 
Carjosse said:
Why are you so invested in holocaust denial being recognized as a legitimate viewpoint?
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I'm interested in academic freedom. It's obvious that you not only don't support academic freedom, but have no idea what it actually means.
 
Carjosse said:
It is appropriate to deal with them by shunning, deny them legitimacy because as soon as you portray Holocaust denial as a valid viewpoint it means you are saying that they could possibly be correct. That is how academia needs to deal with these kinds of dangerous conspiracy theories. It is no different than rejecting flat earthers from scientific discourse, they use the exact same tactics and ideas as flat earthers. They are crackpots: they assert that the Holocaust never happened, they accuse people of creating the Holocaust as a Jewish conspiracy and try to come up with their own easily debunked evidence, saying that those who recognize the Holocaust are merely pawns of some Jewish world order and want to undermine the White race and the greatness of Nazism. Just replace the Holocaust with a round earth and Jews with NASA and you have flat earthers.

You are advocating for holocaust denial, at best Holocaust denial is fanatical anti-semitism, at worst it is Neo-Nazism. What other possible motivation is there to holocaust denial? It is certainly not the truth. Why are you so invested in holocaust denial being recognized as a legitimate viewpoint?
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Do you agree with me that fundamentalist Christians are crackpots? And do you agree that this is no reason to ban their books? Of course holocaust denial is not the 'truth' - but nor is any book promoting any religion.

You so called 'liberals' are dangerous and will end up just like the Nazis, burning any book which does not support your 'truths'.
 
AmNat said:
I'm interested in academic freedom. It's obvious that you not only don't support academic freedom, but have no idea what it actually means.
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So you think the legitimization of conspiracy theories as valid viewpoints is necessary for academic freedom? I think you are the one who does not understand academic freedom. There is a big difference between actual academia and conspiracy theory nonsense like holocaust denial. I guess you believe that flat earthers deserve a place in scientific discourse as well as certainly ignoring infringes on academic freedom according to your freedom.
 
Sweden said:
Do you agree with me that fundamentalist Christians are crackpots? And do you agree that this is no reason to ban their books? Of course holocaust denial is not the 'truth' - but nor is any book promoting any religion.

You so called 'liberals' are dangerous and will end up just like the Nazis, burning any book which does not support your 'truths'.
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When did I advocate banning books? I only advocate that holocaust denial not be given legitimacy in academia, it should be considered nothing more than anti-semitic ravings.
 
Carjosse said:
So you think the legitimization of conspiracy theories as valid viewpoints is necessary for academic freedom? There is a big difference between actual academia and conspiracy theory nonsense like holocaust denial.
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Tolerance of any idea reasonably and calmly presented is necessary for academic freedom.

Wrt to conspiracy theories:

The argument that a conspiracy happened in history should be allowed if presented reasonably and calmly.
The assertion of a conspiracy among modern academics should never be tolerated, since it is toxic to rational discourse.

I wouldn't expect you to understand this sort of nuance.
 
AmNat said:
Tolerance of any idea reasonably and calmly presented is necessary for academic freedom.

Wrt to conspiracy theories:

The argument that a conspiracy happened in history should be allowed if presented reasonably and calmly.
The assertion of a conspiracy among modern academics should never be tolerated, since it is toxic to rational discourse.

I wouldn't expect you to understand this sort of nuance.
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You defeat your own argument, holocaust denial is not reasonable in any way. You keep dodging the question, do you believe that flat earthers should be presented as simply having an "alternative" viewpoint too?
 
Trump said:
YOU think Trump is a Nazi with a Jewish daughter and Jewish grandkids?
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Now why would you think that I believe that Mr. Trump is a "Nazi"?

Is it because you believe that ONLY "Nazis" do NOT want people to wonder why hatred and persecution had become the norm?

Is it because you believe that ONLY "Nazis" do NOT want people to think about whether they wanted to live in a society where hatred and persecution had become the norm?

Is it because you believe that ONLY "Nazis" do NOT want people to think about what they could to so that hatred and persecution were no longer the norm?

Is it because you believe that ONLY "Nazis" do NOT want people to actually do what they could to change society so that hatred and persecution were no longer the norm?

Is it because you believe that ONLY "Nazis" DO want people to worship "The Leader" and believe anything that "The Leader" said, and do whatever "The Leader" said to do. Because the ONLY "Nazis" promise to "Make __[fill in the blank]__ Great Again" and tell the __[fill in the blank]__ people that all of the ills of their current situation were caused by "THOSE People" (and by people who supported political parties other than the NSDAP)?

Is it because you believe that ONLY "Nazis" do NOT bother to tell the __[fill in the blank]__ people that the policies of "The Leader" which were "bringing prosperity" were also bankrupting the country?

If someone believes these things do you expect me to believe that they are a Christian or a Jew?
 
Sweden said:
let us see. Do you think that university - not 'schools' - libraries should have Mein Kamp on their shelves? And works by Marx and his mass murdering followers, Stalin and Mao? And that evil little psychopath Che Guavera? I do; and I do not or one second think that this means that the library would be endorsing either Naziism or Communism. Serious libraries should be repositories of all that has been though and written down, bad as well as good.

But perhaps you are indifferent to these questions as your posts suggest you spend little, if any, time in libraries.
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Which is not the same as presenting works claiming the Holocaust didn't happen whatsoever as legitimate, which is what Holocaust deniers want. So your little rant is utterly meaningless.

Oh really? Everything? So, say, if one was to write a book calling for all white folks to be killed, you'd advocate for that it be presented as a legitimate argument and shown to students?
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Now why would you think that I believe that Mr. Trump is a "Nazi"?

Is it because you believe that ONLY "Nazis" do NOT want people to wonder why hatred and persecution had become the norm?

Is it because you believe that ONLY "Nazis" do NOT want people to think about whether they wanted to live in a society where hatred and persecution had become the norm?

Is it because you believe that ONLY "Nazis" do NOT want people to think about what they could to so that hatred and persecution were no longer the norm?

Is it because you believe that ONLY "Nazis" do NOT want people to actually do what they could to change society so that hatred and persecution were no longer the norm?

Is it because you believe that ONLY "Nazis" DO want people to worship "The Leader" and believe anything that "The Leader" said, and do whatever "The Leader" said to do. Because the ONLY "Nazis" promise to "Make __[fill in the blank]__ Great Again" and tell the __[fill in the blank]__ people that all of the ills of their current situation were caused by "THOSE People" (and by people who supported political parties other than the NSDAP)?

Is it because you believe that ONLY "Nazis" do NOT bother to tell the __[fill in the blank]__ people that the policies of "The Leader" which were "bringing prosperity" were also bankrupting the country?

If someone believes these things do you expect me to believe that they are a Christian or a Jew?
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I believe you believe what you wanna believe.

it's unbelievable to me. )
 
Trump said:
I believe you believe what you wanna believe.

it's unbelievable to me. )
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Thank you for proving, once again, that totally irrelevant comment = straight forward answer in your lexicon.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
You lose.

The Nazis did NOT want people to wonder why hatred and persecution had become the norm.

The Nazis did NOT want people to think about whether they wanted to live in a society where hatred and persecution had become the norm.

The Nazis did NOT want people to think about what they could to so that hatred and persecution were no longer the norm.

The Nazis did NOT want people to actually do what they could to change society so that hatred and persecution were no longer the norm.

HOWEVER, the Nazis DID want people to worship "The Leader" and believe anything that "The Leader" said, and do whatever "The Leader" said to do. Why? Because the Nazis promised to "Make Germany Great Again" and told the German people that all of the ills of their current situation were caused by "THOSE People" (and by people who supported political parties other than the NSDAP).

PS - What the Nazis did NOT bother to tell the German people was that the policies of "The Leader" which were "bringing prosperity" were also bankrupting the country.
Click to expand...

Adolph Hitler was a heroic superstar to the American leftwing economic and social policies of a controlling powerful government married to corporations with enforced corporate-socialist policies. He was even on the cover of Time Magazine as a hero.

The Democratic Party exactly wants Hitler's economic and social policies, other than they want unlimited mass immigration and unlimited offshoring American jobs to maximize corporate profits and minimize labor costs. At that time, Germany had so many unemployed citizens they didn't need immigrants to pay minimal wages. However, minimal wages was better than no wages. The Democratic Party prefers no wages between those two for American citizens.
 
Only total gullible idiots believe there are "Nazis" all over the country. Anyone ranting about "Nazis" just means they are mindlessly blind groupies to absurd corporate media propaganda reciting what they are ordered to recite, nothing else.
 
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