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Trump, sons sue to block House Democrats from obtaining his financial records

So much support for tyranny...

The Patriot Act is tyranny, huh? I missed all those posts from you all these years saying that.

It isn't tyranny for a man who works for us to have to produce his tax returns. You apparently don't know the meaning of the word.


ˈtyranny (ˈti-) noun
an action, or the method of ruling, of a tyrant


Or are you saying Trump is a tyrant?
 
What emoluments? What tax fraud? What bank fraud? What "possible" money laundering?

Stop with the speculation nonsense. Charge him with a crime or impeach him. But don't try to justify invasion of privacy over speculation. It's just plain wrong.

It's called investigation, not 'speculation' and charges come after the evidence has been looked at. Of course the pro-Trump crowd will crow about how the DOJ is not allowed to charge the president. But Congress can and should look into any shady dealings, so stop pretending they have no cause to investigate or they're not allowed to demand evidence. If they don't find anything, Trump has nothing to hide, right?
 
I want to see Nancy Pelosi's financial records.

If she were under investigation it would be perfectly reasonable to and subpoena those.

I sense a bit of ill-considered projection here. As if demanding the records of a Democrat would suddenly give pause to those demanding Trump's financial dealings. "See, how would you like it?' No, we are fine with any evidence being looked into if there is an active investigation into a person's business affairs.
 
If she were under investigation it would be perfectly reasonable to and subpoena those.

I sense a bit of ill-considered projection here. As if demanding the records of a Democrat would suddenly give pause to those demanding Trump's financial dealings. "See, how would you like it?' No, we are fine with any evidence being looked into if there is an active investigation into a person's business affairs.

I think the Ways and Means Committee should be able to look into the finances of any federal government worker - elected or unelected. I'm good with someone protecting this country from people who do things to enrich themselves at our expense.
 
I think the Ways and Means Committee should be able to look into the finances of any federal government worker - elected or unelected. I'm good with someone protecting this country from people who do things to enrich themselves at our expense.
W&M is strictly taxes, while the Finance Service committee has jurisdiction over banking records.

The idiots saying this is overreach are going to eat their words. Congress is an equal branch of government, so seeing the courts question their motivations for seeking documents is more rare than a six leaved clover.

Remember when Nunes got Fusion GPS's records, simply by stating it was vaguely related to intelligence investigations? Yep, a judge upheld that, because judges are extremely reluctant to second guess Congressional subpoena power, even in cases where there is a great argument for overreach.

Democrats will win this battle because they've stated legitimate reasons for these requests, and it's doubtful even a conservative judge will agree with Trump.
 
Says the man that conflates warrants with subpoenas.

No, I didn't. I applied the law properly and in context, accepting that the congress only has authority to dig into the president's private affairs if a crime has been committed, and only then when there is probable cause to suspect the President, and a request to the DOJ to investigate.. at which point an investigation can file a warrant for his tax records.

Congress only has subpoena power over documents that were generated by the administration with regard to their performing their role as chief executive, and regardless of what nitwit put the bug in your ear, private tax returns are not connected in any way to the President's job as chief executive.

And guess what? Verifying that the president is complying with Emoluments clause and is not financially conflicting is a perfectly legitimate function of that, and you bet your ass the courts will eventually rule that way.

False. The Emoluments clause does not grant Congress access to a presidents private documents. The emoluments clause is a law that the president must follow, but you aren't allowed to hound the President on the assumption of guilt.

They don't have to accuse the president of a crime. All they need is cause to have as much information as possible for the oversight duties

Patently and stupidly false. No, your rage-addled fever dreams are not justification for unfettered access to private documents now matter what third world authoritarian coups you think you are living through.

His birth and school records were more the jurisdiction of state authorities, while the financial information relating to Trump goes through the IRS, which is federal, so it's apples to oranges.

LOL. Nice try. The protection of private documents from unlawful search and seizure the right of the individual, and protected by federal law. Federal requirements for running for president are federal law, too, so by your reasoning, the congress should have been able to *chuckle* "subpoena" *chuckle* the President Obama for his school records.. :lamo

The congress couldn't get those documents not because they were the jurisdiction of the state (again, lmfao) they couldn't get them because they had no power to subpoena and can only receive tax documents collected legally by warrant as part of a criminal investigation.

The law is clear that the chairman of the W&M Committee may request the tax records of ANY citizens, without any reason, and hold a closed session for others to see them. This law was literally put in place for Congress to inquire about the financial motivations we're talking about.

False. They will need an actual real world crime by which to justify the tax returns, and even then will have to get them as part of a criminal finding by an criminal investigation. In the case of Nixon, for example, Nixon was tied to an actual crime that Congress was investigating. The only hope you had was for Mueller to have found something criminal on the part of the President. Oh, sorry... you lose.

I know you don't like the law, but it's crystal clear that it's not up to Trump.

I know you don't know the law, so I will have to wait to you learn it before I can conclude whether you like it or not.
 
If Congress decided they need my specific tax returns for no other purpose than to dig up dirt on me, they would be just as wrong as they are now trying to dig up dirt on Trump.

But don't worry, after it's all over I think the courts will side with Trump.
The law is unambiguous. The chairs of those specific Congressional committees are authorized to demand that Treasury Dept comply with their request. There is no wiggle room. Although I never predict what courts will do, unless those courts are activist judges that make up law as they go along, they must find for Congress. I see no valid argument to the contrary.

If Congress demanded your tax-returns, the IRS would have already given them up. The only reason there is any delay on Trump is because the head of the IRS works for Trump. There is no lofty personal privacy issue at play here. It's merely Trump pulling out all stops to prevent Congress from seeing what Trump wants hidden. The question for the electorate is: why?
 
A preemptive strike against the House Dems. Good.

Anyway, I disagree. I think there IS such a thing as too much transparency. Our democratic process has been doing fine for more than two hundred years without it. Some things should stay private...especially things that ALL citizens expect to stay private. A President doesn't give up the rights that every citizen has.

I get that you want to protect Trump at any cost and welcome Trump's obstruction in all ways possible. But don't claim that it is something that has been going on for 200 years. That's total BS and time after time courts have ruled in favor of transparency and men like Trump are prime reason for it. Corruption from the top is the most destructive and the powers of the President belie your claim that he is just like every other citizen. With great power comes great responsibility and that responsibility will not be denied.
 
I think the Ways and Means Committee should be able to look into the finances of any federal government worker - elected or unelected. I'm good with someone protecting this country from people who do things to enrich themselves at our expense.

Who's doing that?
 
No, I didn't. I applied the law properly and in context, accepting that the congress only has authority to dig into the president's private affairs if a crime has been committed, and only then when there is probable cause to suspect the President, and a request to the DOJ to investigate.. at which point an investigation can file a warrant for his tax records.

Congress only has subpoena power over documents that were generated by the administration with regard to their performing their role as chief executive, and regardless of what nitwit put the bug in your ear, private tax returns are not connected in any way to the President's job as chief executive.



False. The Emoluments clause does not grant Congress access to a presidents private documents. The emoluments clause is a law that the president must follow, but you aren't allowed to hound the President on the assumption of guilt.



Patently and stupidly false. No, your rage-addled fever dreams are not justification for unfettered access to private documents now matter what third world authoritarian coups you think you are living through.



LOL. Nice try. The protection of private documents from unlawful search and seizure the right of the individual, and protected by federal law. Federal requirements for running for president are federal law, too, so by your reasoning, the congress should have been able to *chuckle* "subpoena" *chuckle* the President Obama for his school records.. :lamo

The congress couldn't get those documents not because they were the jurisdiction of the state (again, lmfao) they couldn't get them because they had no power to subpoena and can only receive tax documents collected legally by warrant as part of a criminal investigation.



False. They will need an actual real world crime by which to justify the tax returns, and even then will have to get them as part of a criminal finding by an criminal investigation. In the case of Nixon, for example, Nixon was tied to an actual crime that Congress was investigating. The only hope you had was for Mueller to have found something criminal on the part of the President. Oh, sorry... you lose.



I know you don't know the law, so I will have to wait to you learn it before I can conclude whether you like it or not.
:lamo

You are an unintentional comedian in how arrogantly you profess to know the law here, when you can't even distinguish between a search warrant and a subpoena, and the threshold for each.

I don't need to go on to make you look ridiculous, you're doing a great job of that yourself, and a judge will eventually rule on my side. When that happens, I'll be sure to revisit this thread and have a good laugh about it.
 
You'll see in a few months that I'm right. ;)

Nope. Again, sorry for the spoilers.


Yes, they did get the Whitewater documents and held entire hearing on them. And nobody brought up Clinton's impeachment, you did. But while we're on the subject, Democrats aren't advocating Trump's impeachment for a conspiracy with the Russians, but for his obstruction and misconduct to prevent the events in his campaign from being uncovered, as well his financial crimes in NY.

LOL! Nope! Congress had hearings, interviewed witnesses and then referred the Clintons to a special prosecutor, Robert Fiske, and it was the special prosecutor subpoenaed the Clintons. Not sure if you are up on current events, but the Special Prosecutor is all done. No indictments.

They are not requesting private information for the sake of doing so. The Congress has given legitimate oversight reasons relating to the ability for Trump to properly execute his duties as president, and a judge IS going to rule that in the end.

Nope. Their oversight is with regard to the function of the President as chief executive.

Yes, I do. But you're the one that's crying that "waah, they're looking for a crime!" and I showed you Republicans have done that countless times. You're only upset because now this broad power is applied to a president you support, who has skeletons to hide, that you'd rather not have to apologize for.

Gee, you should go tell people who are dragged through the courts for crimes they didn't commit that they are just whiners. Criminey, people deserve to live in the world they want to impose on others... you would find yours amazingly unpleasant.


You have no idea what you're talking about.

I do, you are full of ****.

A subpoena is an order for the production of particular documents. Period. Has nothing to do with the requirement of probable cause.

A subpoena must have a legislative purpose, and "we need to find dirt on the president!" isn't a valid purpose. What you seek requires a criminal referral and a legal subpoena, which requires probable cause.. and a crime.

Grand juries issue subpoenas and regularly obtain financial documents and tax returns, when the government presents good reason for doing so, not requiring probable cause to get them.

Grand Jury subpoenas are a legal process and require.. wait for it.. a crime under investigation, they are a completely different animal from a congressional subpoena. Hows do you not know this?

A warrant is required when you want to search a person, car, home, or other private property, on the basis there is cause to believe they have committed a crime.

Which you would need to do in order to obtain a person's, or a businesses full tax return documents. By the time you are in a Grand Jury requesting tax documents you aren't looking for what they filed with the IRS. :roll:

Now, I know you're not going to stop. I know you'll double and triple down, again and again, hoping maybe you can turn this around, because you're not capable of conceding you simply gave an opinion regarding a matter you have no understanding of, and can't resist the urge to stop talking.

I won't stop because it's fun watching you say foolish things.
 
:lamo

You are an unintentional comedian in how arrogantly you profess to know the law here, when you can't even distinguish between a search warrant and a subpoena, and the threshold for each.

I don't need to go on to make you look ridiculous, you're doing a great job of that yourself, and a judge will eventually rule on my side. When that happens, I'll be sure to revisit this thread and have a good laugh about it.

I can distinguish between them. I think I may have given you too much credit in assuming that you knew the process and expectations of discovery when you believe a crime has been committed.

By the time you were confusing congressional subpoenas and grand jury subpoenas I realized I was giving you too much credit.
 
The law is unambiguous. The chairs of those specific Congressional committees are authorized to demand that Treasury Dept comply with their request. There is no wiggle room. Although I never predict what courts will do, unless those courts are activist judges that make up law as they go along, they must find for Congress. I see no valid argument to the contrary.

If Congress demanded your tax-returns, the IRS would have already given them up. The only reason there is any delay on Trump is because the head of the IRS works for Trump. There is no lofty personal privacy issue at play here. It's merely Trump pulling out all stops to prevent Congress from seeing what Trump wants hidden. The question for the electorate is: why?

An excellent assessment. And adding to that the usual refrain, what if it were Hillary? Seriously would Trump's supporters be fighting so hard for 'privacy' if it wasn't their guy? The law is unambiguous but must suddenly become subjective in order to protect him. If they were so sure he was innocent, they'd be happy to have his finances looked at. They know he's not.

Their consolation may well be that activist judges block such a move out of loyalty to the president: those same judges will rule the complete opposite next time someone asks and it's not their guy. All of a sudden then the rule of law will be important.
 
An excellent assessment. And adding to that the usual refrain, what if it were Hillary? Seriously would Trump's supporters be fighting so hard for 'privacy' if it wasn't their guy? The law is unambiguous but must suddenly become subjective in order to protect him. If they were so sure he was innocent, they'd be happy to have his finances looked at. They know he's not.

Their consolation may well be that activist judges block such a move out of loyalty to the president: those same judges will rule the complete opposite next time someone asks and it's not their guy. All of a sudden then the rule of law will be important.

The modern G.O.P. is perfectly willing to sell out America if that’s what it takes to get tax cuts for the wealthy.
 
Congress, as a co-equal branch, has the right to subpoena. Neither the Executive or Judicial branch can quash that right.
 
I've seen this point argued often in defense of Trump, and while there may be some things that might be off-limits, I believe Trump's business dealings should not be one of them. Hell - the Constitution's emoluments clause alone, would seem reason and legal justification enough.

The emoluments clause only applies to gifts.
not business transactions.

there is a difference that for some reason people don't seem to get.

the fact is that trump underwent an IRS audit when he filed for president. it is required.
evidently he passed it. the IRS found nothing wrong.

this is just another witch hunt.
 
An excellent assessment. And adding to that the usual refrain, what if it were Hillary? Seriously would Trump's supporters be fighting so hard for 'privacy' if it wasn't their guy? The law is unambiguous but must suddenly become subjective in order to protect him. If they were so sure he was innocent, they'd be happy to have his finances looked at. They know he's not.

Their consolation may well be that activist judges block such a move out of loyalty to the president: those same judges will rule the complete opposite next time someone asks and it's not their guy. All of a sudden then the rule of law will be important.

Unless there was some evidence that she was doing something wrong on her taxes then no i wouldn't expect any information on it.
why i couldn't give a **** less about her tax returns.

the whole innocent have nothing to hide is bull **** and everyone knows it.
trump doens't have to prove he did nothing wrong.

they have to prove he did and with more than just accusations.
he has aleady passed numerous irs audits.

do you not think they would have found something?
 
Unless there was some evidence that she was doing something wrong on her taxes then no i wouldn't expect any information on it.
why i couldn't give a **** less about her tax returns.

the whole innocent have nothing to hide is bull **** and everyone knows it.
trump doens't have to prove he did nothing wrong.

they have to prove he did and with more than just accusations.
he has aleady passed numerous irs audits.

do you not think they would have found something?

New information has come to light in the past few months about his real estate dealings. Cohen testified they deflated property values to get a lower tax rate for one. That alone is cause to look into him again, not to mention other suspicions regarding his finances that are coming out of SDNY.

You seem to have the process backasswards. Congress doesn't need PWOOFTM to look for evidence. The normal investigative procedure for any matter of law enforcement goes something like this: suspicion-evidence-proof. It starts with suspicion, they look for evidence and then prove the suspect is guilty or not. And there is plenty of reason to suspect now.

If Trump has done nothing wrong, why shouldn't he hand over the evidence to the authorities? Privacy? You can't tell the cops, "I didn't kill my wife so don't look under the bed because it's private." This whole fake argument that the president doesn't have to hand over his tax returns if he's under investigation for tax fraud because it's 'private' is pure fantasy. Think you or I could get away with that? Anyone under investigation for tax fraud must have their taxes looked at. Trump like the rest of us is obliged to cooperate with law enforcement: in this case congress because as long as the DOJ doesn't have the authority to indict, they are the 'cops'. In the last few threads we've seen plenty of legal opinions and articles linked and shared that show just this.

Again I think the reason his supporters are pushing this made up rule so hard is they know damn well Trump's financial records will expose more crimes and they're desperate to head that off. Like the report however, it's coming out one way or another so brace yourselves.
 
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To answer your bolded question:

I suspect the lines will fall around the Dems calling for transparency in Trump's finances, and the Republicans trying to protect him in keeping his finances hidden. So the delineation will be reasonable clear.

Now as for myself, I strongly believe in transparently and thoroughly vetting those we install into the White House. To that end, I could never vote for Trump based upon him not coming clean with his finances via his tax returns.

This could also be defined as those in favor of police state tactics and those against as they realize the same tactics will be used upon them sooner or later.

The last part is a lie anyway. Hes orange. You would never vote for an orange man. Why are you so racist against orange people?
 
A preemptive strike against the House Dems. Good.

Anyway, I disagree. I think there IS such a thing as too much transparency. Our democratic process has been doing fine for more than two hundred years without it. Some things should stay private...especially things that ALL citizens expect to stay private. A President doesn't give up the rights that every citizen has.

I disagree with the last statement. You want to be President, you open your komono; you do indeed sacrifice much of your privacy. The people have a right to know sufficient amount about your personal finances to intelligently adjudge whether their President is working for the people or work for himself: Is our president serving the people or servicing himself? This question was never as apparent (and as critical) as it is with this particular president.

In the past, we insisted that our President's demonstrate loyalty to the people by putting their assets in a blind trust. We should have insisted the Trump divest himself of his businesses and/or put them in a blind trust as a condition of assuming the Presidency. You can not serve two masters, as Mr. Trump purports to do. You will invariably comprise one to meet the needs of the other. There is great and founded suspicion that Trump is more than willing to comprise the American people to serve himself. That is called corruption, which something America has typically not tolerated its elected officials. When we allow corruption with our president, we risk the security of our nation.

No, Americans have a right (duty) to understand how our President's bread is buttered.
 
I disagree with the last statement. You want to be President, you open your komono; you do indeed sacrifice much of your privacy. The people have a right to know sufficient amount about your personal finances to intelligently adjudge whether their President is working for the people or work for himself: Is our president serving the people or servicing himself? This question was never as apparent (and as critical) as it is with this particular president.

In the past, we insisted that our President's demonstrate loyalty to the people by putting their assets in a blind trust. We should have insisted the Trump divest himself of his businesses and/or put them in a blind trust as a condition of assuming the Presidency. You can not serve two masters, as Mr. Trump purports to do. You will invariably comprise one to meet the needs of the other. There is great and founded suspicion that Trump is more than willing to comprise the American people to serve himself. That is called corruption, which something America has typically not tolerated its elected officials. When we allow corruption with our president, we risk the security of our nation.

No, Americans have a right (duty) to understand how our President's bread is buttered.

Nonsense.

Charge him with a crime. Bring him before a grand jury. If you want to go the DOJ route.

Impeach him. Bring him before the House and the Senate. If you want to go the Congressional route.

Otherwise, you...a citizen...have NO right to force him to give you private information.

You can ask him. He can refuse. If you don't like it...don't vote for him next time around.

Everything you've presented...all this "justification" for your invasion of his privacy...is nonsense.
 
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