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Hospitals Stand to Lose Billions Under ‘Medicare for All’

MFA isn't government run healthcare; it's government funded healthcare.
You obviously do not have a clue how Medicare works. Do not fool yourself when the government writes the check it also makes the rules. Right now the government writes the rules and the checks for Medicare. To say that Medicare isn't government ran healthcare is laughable. Have you ever billed Medicare for anything? Have you ever had to follow Medicare's rules on anything? I have.
 
Exactly. Medicare for all relies heavily on screwing providers. I have pre-existing conditions and have talked to many others in single payer countries. They wait excessively for appointments, wait excessively while at the appointment, see nurses instead of doctors, when having issues are told to go to the emergency room because there are no appointments for months, have to travel to metropolitan areas for providers because there aren't any in rural areas, and can't receive the latest expensive medicines. The only reason why they like their health care systems is because they are basically free so they have financial peace of mind. The cold hard fact is that millions in the US are better off with our current system of employer based health insurance than they would be if we went to medicare for all. What we need to concentrate on is the people who don't have employer based insurance, which is less than 20% of Americans.


None of this even takes into account the economic devastation from basically eliminating an entire industry.

Every other Western nation has managed it, and spends roughly 1/2 what America spends on healthcare per capita, usually with better outcomes.

Surely Trump can come up with a plan to fix th....oh. Right. Never mind.
 
Yeah because we all know how much a failure Government run healthcare has been.

Yep. Apparently Americans are too (stupid?) (Corrupt?) (Uncaring?) (<Your reason here>) to do what the rest of the Western world has successfully done: Implement a form of universal healthcare.

Seriously, what is the reason Americans can't do what every other Western nation has managed? In Canada we pay a fraction of what the USA pays per capita, and we get better outcomes. And there are many other systems that are superior to ours.
 
Looks like this time around we're getting to the level of seriousness where trade-offs and winners-and-losers will get explored. Which is good! But it underscore the risks that primary candidates run in hitching their wagons to a very speculative idea without fully exploring those trade-offs.

Hospitals Stand to Lose Billions Under ‘Medicare for All’



The Stuart Altman quote is the crux of it:



This would be uncharted territory.
Yup, talk is cheap...on both sides of the isle.
 
Food is a basic human right ,lodging is a basic human right.

You would think that in a country as rich as the USA it would be, wouldn't you? Or Canada for that matter. But unfortunately it isn't for some, and personally I hope that changes in my lifetime. Around the world. Even if my lifestyle has to drop to support it.
 
Every other Western nation has managed it, and spends roughly 1/2 what America spends on healthcare per capita, usually with better outcomes.

Surely Trump can come up with a plan to fix th....oh. Right. Never mind.
You don’t live here, so **** off! Asshole
 
Every other Western nation has managed it, and spends roughly 1/2 what America spends on healthcare per capita, usually with better outcomes.

Surely Trump can come up with a plan to fix th....oh. Right. Never mind.
We aren't every other Western Nation we have a very diverse population. Only 49% of the population pays income tax. Our population is aging and fewer workers will eventually have to support more people. So the "Every other Western Nation" argument is comparing apples to oranges.
 
Yup, talk is cheap...on both sides of the isle.

For the first time in my life, a POTUS has huge support from the members of both parties to implement a form of universal healthcare.

Something that important. Something that important to the lives of middle class America, and Trump can't even be bothered to come up with a coherent plan he can share with the American people.

Racist attacks to energize his base? Yes sir! And twice on Sunday. Universal healthcare? Not a peep. And the base believes this flimflam artist cares about them? SMH.
 
We aren't every other Western Nation we have a very diverse population. Only 49% of the population pays income tax. Our population is aging and fewer workers will eventually have to support more people. So the "Every other Western Nation" argument is comparing apples to oranges.

So what? You can't change? Every other Western nation has managed it.

Trump has support for universal healthcare from the majority of both parties, and he cares so little about something so important to Middle Class America, he can't even be bothered to come up with a coherent plan. In two years nada. Just like everything else he claims to have a great plan for. He's nothing but a flimflam artist.

EDIT: Sorry, he worked hard and had a plan for one thing: Making him and his buddies rich:


Trump will personally save up to $15m under tax bill, analysis finds
Jared Kushner will save up to $12m, while five other members of Trump’s inner circle will also see benefits worth millions of dollars

Dang, that baby got implemented right quick, eh? What a disgusting piece of human filth.
 
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You would think that in a country as rich as the USA it would be, wouldn't you? Or Canada for that matter. But unfortunately it isn't for some, and personally I hope that changes in my lifetime. Around the world. Even if my lifestyle has to drop to support it.
We feed everyone very few starve to death and if they do they aren't taking advantage of the resources that are available. We have the fattest poor people in the world. We do have problems with homeless, mental illness drugs or alcohol are to blame for much of that. We have spent Trillions on the poor but they will always be with us. Some eat hamburger and some eat ribeye steak. Most get basic health care. I have had people receive care in the ER then drive off in a new car and never pay a penny for their care.
 
You don’t live here, so **** off! Asshole

Awwwww.....can't find your safe space? LOL, sounds like someone needs to turn off their computer and be put in time out.
 
So what? You can't change? Every other Western nation has managed it.

Trump has support for universal healthcare from the majority of both parties, and he cares so little about something so important to Middle Class America, he can't even be bothered to come up with a coherent plan. In two years nada. Just like everything else he claims to have a great plan for. He's nothing but a flimflam artist.

EDIT: Sorry, he worked hard and had a plan for one thing: Making him and his buddies rich:


Trump will personally save up to $15m under tax bill, analysis finds
Jared Kushner will save up to $12m, while five other members of Trump’s inner circle will also see benefits worth millions of dollars

Dang, that baby got implemented right quick, eh? What a disgusting piece of human filth.

We aren't like every other Western Nation. You cannot compare them to us and say it works for them so it will work for us. That is a false narrative. You are comparing apples to oranges. It make work for us but it may not work. The data does not look favorable.
 
We feed everyone very few starve to death and if they do they aren't taking advantage of the resources that are available.

Sorry, my bad for not explaining better, when we're talking about access to food, I'm talking about everyone being able to afford to have a healthy diet. I know some won't do that, but there are a lot of children whose parents can't afford to provide a healthy diet, and that shouldn't be happening in wealthy countries like ours imo.

We have the fattest poor people in the world. We do have problems with homeless, mental illness drugs or alcohol are to blame for much of that. We have spent Trillions on the poor but they will always be with us. Some eat hamburger and some eat ribeye steak. Most get basic health care. I have had people receive care in the ER then drive off in a new car and never pay a penny for their care.

Mental illness is a terrible thing. I know in Vancouver we don't spend nearly enough helping those people imo. I'm betting it's the same in the USA?

And universal healthcare would take of the problem of people going to ER in a new car, and then driving off without paying. They would have already paid. See, it solves problems. :)


Where is Trump's healthcare plan? So far his only plan has been to destroy the little gains you've made in order to attack the legacy of a black man. That's just pathetic for a POTUS who for the first time in my lifetime has almost unanimous support from the American people to implement something major.

There is no plan, because he doesn't give a **** about you, or anyone else in his base. He gets his base all excited by making racist attacks, but delivers nothing. Ever. Even when he had the Senate and Congress, where was the wall? Like I said and showed, the only plans Trump has had and implemented are the one that made him and his buddies richer.
 
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Awwwww.....can't find your safe space? LOL, sounds like someone needs to turn off their computer and be put in time out.
rotflmao no no, not the time out...whut a rat bastard chump.
 
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We aren't like every other Western Nation. You cannot compare them to us and say it works for them so it will work for us. That is a false narrative. You are comparing apples to oranges. It make work for us but it may not work. The data does not look favorable.

No it's not. Any reasonably wealthy country can do it. Obviously. They all have, except the USA.

And as someone who lives in a country that has universal healthcare, let me tell you, it is one of the greatest things there is about my country. Not just because it helps my family, but because it helps all Canadians, and that makes our country a better place, for everyone.

Here, read this:

Poll: Most Canadians love single-payer healthcare except Alan, the single payer

MONTREAL – A new poll shows most Canadians are either happy or very happy with the current single payer system, with the notable exception of 28 year old Alan Roberts, the man personally responsible for paying for everyone’s healthcare.

“It’s pretty stressful for me,” Alan says. “It’s costing me around $230 billion a year. I’m working three jobs right now but that’s barely cutting it.”

Alan started paying for Canada’s healthcare system seven years ago when he lost the national round of Not-It that all Canadians play to determine who will pay for the country’s healthcare system after the previous single payer dies.

“My mouth was full,” he says. “I had just taken a sip of slurpee and I was wearing my favourite hockey jersey. Of course, I realize now that replacing a slurpee-dribbled shirt would have cost me far less than paying for healthcare for 35 million people.”
 
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Many hospitals are barely profitable.

Many hospitals are quite profitable. Many hospitals count the PROFIT they could have had instead of the true cost they incurred when discounting services or have people fail to pay. When my wife needed a minor operation (we had insurance) the hospital still wanted us to sign up for their credit card before she could be seen. They didn't tell us about this until an hour before the operation time. We instead wrote a check for the estimated amount, then received another bill for the revised fees.

Now all of this was at a hospital my wife used to work in in the IT section. Many an hour was spent running and re-running the numbers to make the hospital balance profit to losses. The hospital did receive government money to cover a portion of their losses so 'massaging' the numbers was a worthwhile endeavor.

The hospitals that are barely profitable are the smaller rural ones. They depend on Medicare patients as those with 'real' insurance go to the 'big city' for medical care. So far from screwing the provider, many providers depend on medicare patients to pay the bills. When their was talk of cutting medicare here in Oklahoma, when our GOP lead state legislature refused to increase medicare/aid coverage as part of the ACA, many rural hospitals complained. Many who work in small towns and rural areas don't have employer provided healthcare insurance, don't make enough to pay for individual insurance. Including these people in a single payer system would have boosted the income of many rural hospitals and helped keep them afloat.

Purcell OK lost it's small hospital due to the multi-state corporate HQ not seeing enough profit to keep it open and the small town couldn't raise the bribe to keep it operating...

The hospitals that are struggling are the very ones that could use the single payer system... :peace
 
Exactly. Medicare for all relies heavily on screwing providers. I have pre-existing conditions and have talked to many others in single payer countries. They wait excessively for appointments, wait excessively while at the appointment, see nurses instead of doctors, when having issues are told to go to the emergency room because there are no appointments for months, have to travel to metropolitan areas for providers because there aren't any in rural areas, and can't receive the latest expensive medicines. The only reason why they like their health care systems is because they are basically free so they have financial peace of mind. The cold hard fact is that millions in the US are better off with our current system of employer based health insurance than they would be if we went to medicare for all. What we need to concentrate on is the people who don't have employer based insurance, which is less than 20% of Americans.

No. The trillions of dollars spent to maintain the insurance companies would go towards healthcare. The billions paid to the CEO's so they can afford penthouses, private jets, multimillion dollar bonuses and such would now actually be available to pay for health care. The billions of dollars going to all the insurance workers would now go directly to health care. The burden taken away from the employer would allow more money to be paid in wages and taxes to fund health care. Trade offs. But clearly eliminating all the middle men would free up plenty of money to pay health care cost instead. Plus all the dickering over who is responsible for bills and who will pay is cleared up stream lining billing and payment which is half the staff of a lot of medical facilities. Oh and a Tylenol would go from $10. back to 10cents.


None of this even takes into account the economic devastation from basically eliminating an entire industry.

There would be no devastation. All the people in the insurance industry would move to health care where they would provide health care instead of just syphoning away money needed for heath care.
 
Sorry, my bad for not explaining better, when we're talking about access to food, I'm talking about everyone being able to afford to have a healthy diet. I know some won't do that, but there are a lot of children whose parents can't afford to provide a healthy diet, and that shouldn't be happening in wealthy countries like ours imo.
There are very good food programs for parents with kids. Stores have been busted for buying food stamps at a discount so the recipient can buy booze and cigarettes. If kids are hungry its largely the fault of their parent and not the government. I donate monthly to the Tarrant County Food Bank .


Mental illness is a terrible thing. I know in Vancouver we don't spend nearly enough helping those people imo. I'm betting it's the same in the USA?

And universal healthcare would take of the problem of people going to ER in a new car, and then driving off without paying. They would have already paid. See, it solves problems. :)


Where is Trump's healthcare plan? So far his only plan has been to destroy the little gains you've made in order to attack the legacy of a black man. That's just pathetic.
Yes I would have paid for the healthcare of the guy that drove off in a new car. Let me tell you about Obama care I have had patients that I was doing pain procedures on. These procedures required monthly treatments. After they had to switch to Obamacare [No they could not keep their plan] anyway after they got Obamacare their deductible went up to 10K a year. They couldn't afford that so they stopped coming for treatments. Also I had a Medicare patient that needed a dorsal column never stimulator badly. Medicare wouldn't pay enough to even pay for the stimulator much less the hospital charges. I talked with the hospital and the stimulator manufacture. I was able to get them to provide their goods and services for free. They only did it because of the patient's severe need and because I did a large volume of other patients with them. The stimulator worked and it improved the patient's quality of life markedly. If we go to MFA that kind of rationing will occur for all patients.

I might be for single payer if :

1. You can show me a realistic cost and payment method. [Remember Obama said we would save money on Obamacare one of his many lies]
2. You give medical students free tuition and a stipend to live own in medical school.
 
I have pre-existing conditions and have talked to many others in single payer countries. They wait excessively for appointments, wait excessively while at the appointment, see nurses instead of doctors, when having issues are told to go to the emergency room because there are no appointments for months, have to travel to metropolitan areas for providers because there aren't any in rural areas, and can't receive the latest expensive medicines.

I remember our conversations where you claimed to "know all sorts of people in other countries, mumble mumble public health care is horrible mumble mumble etc" and I found out quickly that you had made all of that crap up.
Time to go dig up those conversations so others can witness you flailing around like a carp out of water.
 
Many hospitals are quite profitable. Many hospitals count the PROFIT they could have had instead of the true cost they incurred when discounting services or have people fail to pay. When my wife needed a minor operation (we had insurance) the hospital still wanted us to sign up for their credit card before she could be seen. They didn't tell us about this until an hour before the operation time. We instead wrote a check for the estimated amount, then received another bill for the revised fees.

Now all of this was at a hospital my wife used to work in in the IT section. Many an hour was spent running and re-running the numbers to make the hospital balance profit to losses. The hospital did receive government money to cover a portion of their losses so 'massaging' the numbers was a worthwhile endeavor.

The hospitals that are barely profitable are the smaller rural ones. They depend on Medicare patients as those with 'real' insurance go to the 'big city' for medical care. So far from screwing the provider, many providers depend on medicare patients to pay the bills. When their was talk of cutting medicare here in Oklahoma, when our GOP lead state legislature refused to increase medicare/aid coverage as part of the ACA, many rural hospitals complained. Many who work in small towns and rural areas don't have employer provided healthcare insurance, don't make enough to pay for individual insurance. Including these people in a single payer system would have boosted the income of many rural hospitals and helped keep them afloat.

Purcell OK lost it's small hospital due to the multi-state corporate HQ not seeing enough profit to keep it open and the small town couldn't raise the bribe to keep it operating...

The hospitals that are struggling are the very ones that could use the single payer system... :peace

That article talks about small rural hospitals closing. LOL, small rural hospitals have already been closing at a record rate since 2004.
 
We can't simply keep accepting ballooning doctor, hospital, procedure, and drug costs.

This trajectory has to change or someday in our lifetimes, routine healthcare will only be available to the wealthy.

Sounds like what is happening to university costs ever since the government started guaranteeing college loans and preventing the option of bankruptcy to dispose of the debt. As a result, college debts exceed credit card debts while costs skyrocket and universities such as Harvard rack up reserve cash into the billions and tens of billions of dollars - with most increases in university staffing in administrators and not professors.

Law limits how much of insurance premiums that insurance companies can keep for and spend on itself and their own salaries. There would be no limit if government takes the place of private insurance companies.
 
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And I had no problem with any wait line until George Bush Jr started creating boatloads of vets with his wars and not keeping up with similar increases in spending on the VA at home.

But decoupling resources and capacity from the actual need and instead subjecting both to artificial political budget targets is exactly the danger that's being described here.

If the argument is "underfund hospitals and they'll be forced to find a way to make it work," the VA is not an unreasonable example of how that thinking can go awry.

We know what plays the biggest role in cost inflation in health care, and it's not local wages.

The two biggest factors:
1) Profiteering.
2) Patients who can't pay their bills, which transfers the cost burden to services.

Both of which could be remedied with government health care and price controls.

The argument was that "cost of care is not that high." In reality, labor-related expenses make up about 2/3 of hospital expenses, per the federal government. If wages in the health sector were lower, the cost of care would be lower. To get to some arbitrary international benchmark of what care "should" cost, those wages will have to be substantially lower.

It's not that uncharted, considering that we have working data from the top 10 health care nations who are ahead of us in cost/benefit analysis of care in every area.

There's no roadmap for getting from health care as 18% of GDP to 9% or 12% or whatever arbitrary target we choose. No one's ever done anything remotely like that before. So yes, it's uncharted.

There would be no devastation. All the people in the insurance industry would move to health care where they would provide health care instead of just syphoning away money needed for heath care.

That's a re-allocation of health spending, not actual savings. Which might be a great idea. But it still means we'll be spending what we're spending.
 
There are very good food programs for parents with kids. Stores have been busted for buying food stamps at a discount so the recipient can buy booze and cigarettes. If kids are hungry its largely the fault of their parent and not the government. I donate monthly to the Tarrant County Food Bank .

There are always going to be people who abuse the system. Hell, look at Trump, making him and his buddies billions off of those tax cuts. That doesn't mean that the system shouldn't be there, or can't be improved. And good on ya for contributing to the Food Bank. I do was well. :)

One in five Canadian children are at risk of going back-to-school hungry

Reading, writing and hunger: More than 13 million kids in the USA go to school hungry


I might be for single payer if :

1. You can show me a realistic cost and payment method.

AFAIK, according to every study I've ever seen, you have the most expensive system in the world, by far. Anything would be an improvement. Copy almost any other system, and it will save you vast amounts of money.

2. You give medical students free tuition and a stipend to live own in medical school.

I think higher education should be available to everyone, not just the rich, and would support a form of free tuition for everyone that wants to attend post secondary classes. After all, there's a reason Trump loves the poorly educated, and it's not good.
 
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