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[W:914,1223] Robert Mueller's report is out

Mycroft said:
And the other thing people are ignoring is the fact that it wasn't Mueller's job to "exonerate Trump". Heck, it's not ANY prosecutor's job to exonerate someone. Their job is to find evidence that a crime was committed by the suspect.

Mueller didn't find the evidence.

Game over.
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The only people ive heard say anything about exoneration was Barr and Trumpists.
 
haymarket said:
Cue The Carpenters - "We've Only Just Begun"


Or if you want something stronger - how about the Blues Magoos - "You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet".

Sure wish there was a Springsteen song that applied.
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Its fascinating that you still buy into this stuff. HOw do you expect this to turn out?
 
danarhea said:
Wow. Page 173 is pretty damning. Numerous contacts between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. No indictments because Members of the Trump campaign didn't know they were violating the law.

As for obstruction, charges were not brought, but Trump ordered McGhan to fire Mueller. McGhan wrote a resignation letter instead of doing what he had been ordered to do, which made Trump rescind his order to McGhan. McGhan singlehandedly saved Trump's ass on that one.

All in all, Trump is legally cleared, but morally convicted.
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Your points are well taken however Trump is not cleared legally.

Trump is protected legally from any crimes committed or which may be committed. DoJ policy is not to indict an incumbent Potus. Mueller was never going to indict Trump, which is another reason Mueller passed on the face to face interview the prosecution normally conducts. There was no point to going after Trump legally.

There remains danger in this for Trump however. Trump surely will take this as the definitive reality that Potus cannot or shall not be indicted for any crimes committed or that he may commit. So if we think Trump has been hell on wheels against the Constitution up to the present, we're in for some horrors from a new dimension of abuse now and coming soon. Trump unrestrained definitively and officially free of the rule of law is Trump self destroyed.
 
haymarket said:
I don't get it. Trump is in worse shape today with all that was in the Mueller Report and the way Barr disgraced himself through his lies.
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The report is 50/50

While the investigation identified numerous links between individuals with ties to the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump Campaign, the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges. Among other things, the evidence was sufficient to charge any Campaign official as an unregistered agent of the Russian government or other Russian principal. And our evidence about the June 9, 2016 meeting and WikiLeak’s releases of hacked materials was not sufficient to charge a criminal campaign-finance violation. Further, the evidence was sufficient to charge that any member of the Trump Campaign conspired with representatives of the Russian government to interfere in the 2016 election.

No collusion

Fourth, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgement. The evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.

Yes to obstruction (in a round about way)


Barr misrepresented half of Mueller's conclusion.
 
bomberfox said:
The only people ive heard say anything about exoneration was Barr and Trumpists.
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He was exonerated on collusion. Thats not even arguable at this point
 
Mithros said:
Barr is a hack.

Barr's release: "The investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in it's election interference activities"

The actual quote:
The investigation also identified numerous links between the the Russian government and the Trump campaign. Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in it's election interference activities"

He cut a sentence in half! Basically, it's 100% proven that the Trump campaign cooperated and coordinated with the Russian government. But because the Russian government committed the crimes, and it couldn't be established that the Trump campaign explicitly asked for those crimes to be committed.. it was technically not criminal.
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Does that even matter? Why should Trump complain if Russia is helping him win, exactly? It's not like 63 million russians voted for him. No. They just did **** to make Clinton's life hell, and all Trump had to do was smile and allow it, which he did. All that matters is that neither he, nor the campaign, did anything to collude with them, and that's all that matters.
 
haymarket said:
I don't get it. Trump is in worse shape today with all that was in the Mueller Report and the way Barr disgraced himself through his lies.
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This. This right here, is why the polls won't move a single inch. Not a single point from this release. It solved nothing, and people are busy out there trying to make ends meet, and don't really have the time to read 400 pages. Either way, partisans will read into it what they please, and the fact that people can't agree what words on a paper say, just proves that were not only divided, but hopelessly so. Nothing will come of this, and the energy spent pushing this report was all, and is all, for naught.
 
Fletch said:
He was exonerated on collusion. Thats not even arguable at this point
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No evidence is not exoneration. That is not arguable.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
This. This right here, is why the polls won't move a single inch. Not a single point from this release. It solved nothing, and people are busy out there trying to make ends meet, and don't really have the time to read 400 pages. Either way, partisans will read into it what they please, and the fact that people can't agree what words on a paper say, just proves that were not only divided, but hopelessly so. Nothing will come of this, and the energy spent pushing this report was all, and is all, for naught.
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Investigation usefulness is not determined by polls.
 
Roadvirus said:
The only disgraceful thing about this whole affair is your side's whining.
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Screaming about lies is justified. And today we saw lots and lots and lots of them starting with Barr and ending with Trump.
 
Fletch said:
Its fascinating that you still buy into this stuff. HOw do you expect this to turn out?
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I expect the American people to triumph while Trump gets his sorry ass kicked to the curb.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
This. This right here, is why the polls won't move a single inch. Not a single point from this release. It solved nothing, and people are busy out there trying to make ends meet, and don't really have the time to read 400 pages. Either way, partisans will read into it what they please, and the fact that people can't agree what words on a paper say, just proves that were not only divided, but hopelessly so. Nothing will come of this, and the energy spent pushing this report was all, and is all, for naught.
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Which is a great victory for Trump and a big loss for honesty and the American people.
 
Mycroft said:
And the other thing people are ignoring is the fact that it wasn't Mueller's job to "exonerate Trump". Heck, it's not ANY prosecutor's job to exonerate someone. Their job is to find evidence that a crime was committed by the suspect.

Mueller didn't find the evidence.

Game over.
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I agree. If Mueller and his team were convinced that Trump had obstructed justice, I dont see why they would have couched it in a non-committal "we arent claiming Trump committed a crime nor are we exonerating him" fashion.
 
bomberfox said:
His report was a lot different than the Mueller report. I dont cry, i get even. I know why trumpanzees want to skip over the AG roulette Trump played with the AG he even selected himself.
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TDS can't handle the facts.
NO collusion
and the DOJ has stated there is not information for an obstruction charge.
 
Fletch said:
I agree. If Mueller and his team were convinced that Trump had obstructed justice, I dont see why they would have couched it in a non-committal "we arent claiming Trump committed a crime nor are we exonerating him" fashion.
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So he wasnt exonerated afterall? Might want to learn what that means.
 
Mithros said:
Where exactly did I say that report established that the Trump Campaign conspired with the Russian government?

I said that the report proves, in great detail that the Trump administration cooperated and coordinated with the Russian Government and Intermediaries. This is absolute undeniable, obvious, presented so many times it makes your eyes bleed fact.

Cooperated and coordinated are words with a dictionary definition. Mueller did not investigate dictionary definitions. Mueller went out of his way to say that since neither Collusion nor coordination are federal crimes, he interpreted collusion and coordination only as a criminal conspiracy which requires an explicit or implicit agreement... He determined that this could not be **PROVEN** due to

  1. [*=1]Lies by witnesses,
    [*=1]Inability to prove that members of the Trump administration *knew* their behavior was criminal,
    [*=1]Conspiracy with intermediaries was non criminal in nature because the intermediary did not engage in the criminal behavior.
    [*=1]The president cannot be indicted.


Would you like examples of coordination? How about Don Junior adjusting campaign messaging to coordinate with back channel Russian communication? Or what about Manafort giving mountains of campaign data to Russian troll farms for a sustained period of time? Or Trump making numerous requests to the Russians to get Hillary's emails? All of this borderline criminal behavior was not prosecuted due to legal technicalities, not due to unlawful intent.
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it says nothing like that why are you lying?

the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in it's election interference activities"
The report says 100% the opposite of what you think it says.

Now if you are upset with russian interference then you should be howling at the DNC.
they were clearly involved with russian operatives
 
ludin said:
TDS can't handle the facts.
NO collusion
and the DOJ has stated there is not information for an obstruction charge.
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Read the report again. It didnt meet Barr’s rather insane bar for obstruction as the report clearly lays out several attempts to thwart the investigation, including his whispered request to Comey and Sara Sanders openly lying about the FBI’s opinion about Comey before der trumpengroper fired him. His orders to fire Mueller as outlined in the report being another, and shuffling around an AG that even i found to be a reprehensible human being for doing something right for once. Im not letting you trumpists forget this. You can scream and throw fits, but ill be right here reminding you.
 
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bomberfox said:
Read the report again. It didnt meet Barr’s rather insane bar for obstruction as the report clearly lays out several attempts to obstruct justice.
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actually if you read the report they came to no conclusion.
also it wasn't just barr it was rosenstein as well both agreed
that there was no criminal intent.

why are you being dishonest?
it isn't going to help you.
 
Verax said:
Do I really want to read all 448 pages? Not really. But I don't want to hear spin about excerpts from the report over the next however many months. I guess I have no choice, goodbye rest of week.
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well,there is this

“The conclusion that Congress may apply the obstruction laws to the president’s corrupt exercise of the powers of office accords with our constitutional system of checks and balances and the principle that no person is above the law.”
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bomberfox said:
So he wasnt exonerated afterall? Might want to learn what that means.
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actually it does.

no collusion
not enough for obstruction.

that means exonerated.

remember intent matters and both AG's agreed he didn't meet the requirement of criminal intent.
 
RAMOSS said:
well,there is this

“The conclusion that Congress may apply the obstruction laws to the president’s corrupt exercise of the powers of office accords with our constitutional system of checks and balances and the principle that no person is above the law.”
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yet both AG's found that there was not enough evidence to support an obstruction charge.
interesting but don't let facts get in the way.

so if you believe on convicting people of crimes they did not commit then our country is going into
the crap hole.
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ludin said:
RAMOSS said:
well,there is this



yet both AG's found that there was not enough evidence to support an obstruction charge.
interesting but don't let facts get in the way.

so if you believe on convicting people of crimes they did not commit then our country is going into
the crap hole.
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Not quite, since the position of the AG and the DOJ is that a sitting president can not indict a sitting president.
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Anyone else catch the facial expression and “cigar store indian” posture of DAG Rosenstein today?
 
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