• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Extra pilot averted disaster on previous Boeing 737 Max 8 flight - report

Stealers Wheel said:
I've spoken with a number of commercial pilots over the years and many of them expressed to me their concern that foreign trained pilots are poorly trained. One told me they were trained to "operate computers, not pilot aircraft."

With today's technology, we only need real pilots when things start going wrong. Captain Sully comes to mind.
Click to expand...

I’ve several hundred hours as a flight instructor all in light singles and a thousand or so more flying myself and my family around and a little time doing aerobatics so what I generalize here may not be applicable at all to transport sized aircraft. Stick and rudder skills are very important but the most important things and the hardest to teach are risk assessment and decision making skills. Capt Sullenberger did a fantastic job flying the plane but I’d argue that his decision to ditch in the river and not try to return to LGA or make Newark is just as, if not more, important.
 
PeteEU said:
The **** storm has hit the European FAA as well. Europe and the US have had an agreement to basically accept each other certifications of airplanes without much hassle and that is of course based on trust. That trust has been obliterated by this situation, which means that European governments and national regulators will now most likely push for independent accreditation... not good.
Click to expand...

Which means their aircraft will have to be certified to fly in the US. Not a good thing especially when everyone knows what the problem was, what the fix is, and the need to make sure all operators of the craft train their pilots correctly on the craft. What a waste. Apparently the politicos see an opening to exploit for their own ends, to the detriment of everyone.
 
Gaius46 said:
I’ve several hundred hours as a flight instructor all in light singles and a thousand or so more flying myself and my family around and a little time doing aerobatics so what I generalize here may not be applicable at all to transport sized aircraft. Stick and rudder skills are very important but the most important things and the hardest to teach are risk assessment and decision making skills. Capt Sullenberger did a fantastic job flying the plane but I’d argue that his decision to ditch in the river and not try to return to LGA or make Newark is just as, if not more, important.
Click to expand...

I think that getting some hours in aerobatic trainer would be a very worthwhile thing to do for anyone who is serious about flying professionally. Especially when it comes to getting an understanding of and learning how to deal with extreme upset and stalled flight conditions.
 
Atomic Kid said:
I think that getting some hours in aerobatic trainer would be a very worthwhile thing to do for anyone who is serious about flying professionally. Especially when it comes to getting an understanding of and learning how to deal with extreme upset and stalled flight conditions.
Click to expand...

Agreed. After loops, rolls, lots of inverted flight and lord knows how many spins of all flavors stalls - unless we’re talking at 100 agl- just aren’t scary.

And besides that’s it’s lots of fun. Just don’t eat bacon right before blasting off :)
 
jimbo said:
You did:

"Is it the fault of Trump,"
Click to expand...
And you happen to exclude what was after? Yes it is the fault of Trump...that he meddled in stuff he should not be involved.

But as I also stated, the rot started before Trump.

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk
 
PeteEU said:
And you happen to exclude what was after? Yes it is the fault of Trump...that he meddled in stuff he should not be involved.

But as I also stated, the rot started before Trump.

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Nice walkback, but no. That's what you said. It's rather foolish to deny you said something that's so easily cut and pasted,
 
PeteEU said:
Not uncommon attitude...it is basic xenophobia and ignorance. You see it all over the place from doctors to engineers and other jobs.

But as in all aspects of life, it comes down to the individual and not the race, colour, nationality or religion of the person.

As for Sully...what he did was his job...just as other foreign pilots did before him and after him. He got a movie, they did not. I remember a similar accident with a SAS plane a decade before...sure it did not land in a cold river, but in a field...but still all people walked away.

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I didn't write anything about race or religion. I was referencing what U.S. trained pilots have told me about other countries' training of their pilots. They tell me THE TRAINING is inadequate, and you call them racist!

There is a reason that we require our doctors and other health professionals graduate from accredited schools, and it is not xenophobia or ignorance. It has to do with the fact that people's lives are at stake. That is not racist.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I didn't write anything about race or religion. I was referencing what U.S. trained pilots have told me about other countries' training of their pilots. They tell me THE TRAINING is inadequate, and you call them racist!
Click to expand...

Yep I do.. and it is simple, the US pilots are afraid of losing their jobs to foreign pilots so they cast doubt on their training. Now this doubt is often based on nationality and hence race and religion.

There is a reason that we require our doctors and other health professionals graduate from accredited schools, and it is not xenophobia or ignorance. It has to do with the fact that people's lives are at stake. That is not racist.
Click to expand...

The reason is often political. Listen I understand that we dont automatically approve people graduating from a hack online school on Granada, but we are talking about people who have degrees from legit schools world wide. And yes it is often based on nationality, race and religion even over here in Europe. For some reason a Danish speaking Polish doctors are "not good enough" for Danish hospitals.. at least according to some, where as a non Danish speaking English doctor is no problem...

So when an Danish, English, whoever pilot or doctor or whatever states that some guy who got his degree in Jakarta, Warsaw or Moscow or Damascus is not "good enough".. it pisses me off because people should have their abilities based on merit, not that they are so called "foreign".
 
jimbo said:
Nice walkback, but no. That's what you said. It's rather foolish to deny you said something that's so easily cut and pasted,
Click to expand...

There is no walk back. Trump is to blame in part, as stated, for the current situation. His government shutdown delayed a patch. His meddling in Boeing and being too cosy with Boeing leadership is a problem, on top of his public twittering bs. Also the fact that he has yet to appoint a head for the FAA is his fault.

Now what is not his fault, is that the culture of corruption got hold in the first place over the last 30+ years.
 
PeteEU said:
Yep I do.. and it is simple, the US pilots are afraid of losing their jobs to foreign pilots so they cast doubt on their training. Now this doubt is often based on nationality and hence race and religion.



The reason is often political. Listen I understand that we dont automatically approve people graduating from a hack online school on Granada, but we are talking about people who have degrees from legit schools world wide. And yes it is often based on nationality, race and religion even over here in Europe. For some reason a Danish speaking Polish doctors are "not good enough" for Danish hospitals.. at least according to some, where as a non Danish speaking English doctor is no problem...

So when an Danish, English, whoever pilot or doctor or whatever states that some guy who got his degree in Jakarta, Warsaw or Moscow or Damascus is not "good enough".. it pisses me off because people should have their abilities based on merit, not that they are so called "foreign".
Click to expand...

I don't know what axe you have to grind, but I will point out that the U.S. has not had a commercial passenger aircraft crash in a very long time. The rest of the world cannot say the same.

You really need to make up your mind. Are the pilots racists, hating other pilots because of the color of their skin, or do they hate them because they fear these excellent pilots are going to take their jobs? They are not one and the same.

Here's a link to an article from 2015 that discusses the problem you label as 'racist.' Please note the surname of the racist professor quoted here.

The string of bad news doesn't surprise Christopher Tang, a University of California at Los Angeles professor and former business school dean at the National University of Singapore.

"I do not fly domestic flights in Asia," Tang told VICE News. Even when flying within China, he prefers to only use international carriers that observe Federal Aviation Administration standards because they fly to the United States. ...

The big problem, according to Tang, is that developing countries like China and Vietnam and developed countries like Japan and Australia don't have any uniform standards for training pilots. It's mix of different training styles, flight-hour requirements, and other rules for putting people in cockpits.
Click to expand...
 
PeteEU said:
There is no walk back. Trump is to blame in part, as stated, for the current situation. His government shutdown delayed a patch. His meddling in Boeing and being too cosy with Boeing leadership is a problem, on top of his public twittering bs. Also the fact that he has yet to appoint a head for the FAA is his fault.

Now what is not his fault, is that the culture of corruption got hold in the first place over the last 30+ years.
Click to expand...

But that's not the issue. You asked who said that?

I answered - You did. With a direct quote. Now you're to something about 30 year old corruption, or Trump blame, or government corruption, meddling,Boeing,FAA head

None of which changes the fact that you said that.
 
PirateMk1 said:
This "problem" was very preventable, its called training. Boeing and the airlines did not emphasize the new control scheme and how to adjust in case it fails during the training of these pilots. Its in the technical manual but not in the pilots manual. Note the pilot should read and know both manuals. Blame goes around to everyone Boeing and the airlines and the pilots. This "problem" has been known by US pilots flying the aircraft since the beginning, they were fine flying the aircraft since they knew the procedure to correct the problem which is just flipping a couple of switches.
Click to expand...

The problem is, the vanilla system (not the add on that Boeing sold which added the disagreement light between the two AOC sensors) only looked at one AOC sensor, the safety of the entire plane could be endangered by one point of failure. Boeing rushed this plane, rejiggered the old frame to accommodate the LEAP engines and didn't provide necessary safety features as part of the regular product, instead adding it as an add on. Plus, the differences training to go from flying the 737-800 NG to the MAX were not comprehensive and didn't address the MCAS and when it engages.

Also, the term "extra pilot" is misleading. A pilot was riding in the jump seat, probably commuting home. Usually pilots will ride in the passenger section of the plane unless it is full. If this is the case that he had to sit jumpseat, that is a very lucky coincidence that saved many lives. I've sat in the jumpseat on an A320 and on a RC-135 during a flight, its a pretty amazing world up there, having another set of experienced eyes and hands in there saved their lives.
 
Last edited:
Gaius46 said:
Yes. Like most pilots I want to know everything about the systems in my aircraft. It’s inconceivable to me that Boeing glossed over a system that makes control inputs. 737 drivers are rightly furious about this.
Click to expand...

This is a really good article about a situation that a former coworker wrote, the fact that MCAS relied on only one AOC sensor (and that the airline didn't buy the upgraded disagree indicator between the two AOC sensors) really is a bad design issue.

Whether the MAX Should Have Been Grounded or Not, Boeing Finds Itself in Hot Water | Cranky Flier

This article explains how Boeing charged extra to add on the disagree indicator to airlines, its a great read.

Doomed Boeing Jets Lacked 2 Safety Features That Company Sold Only as Extras - The New York Times
 
PeteEU said:
Yes I understand, but Boeing has been under massive pressure from Airbus the last decade.

People forget the 737 Max is basically a duct tape plane thrown together to counter the Airbus A321 and A319...long range single aisle planes.

Now when you have the government in your pocket like Boeing has (regardless of political colour), getting the regulator to play ball as well is a godsend as long as you don't get caught. That it took the deaths of 100s of people to expose the problem only makes it worse....since the FAA was clearly made aware of the problems but did nothing about it.

The question is why the FAA sat on the information....political or/and financial reasons? Or outright incompetence... I am sadly praying for the last one.



Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

One slight correction, the MAX is the duct tape plane to counter the Airbus A319, A320, A321 NEO series of planes, a new generation of the previous models with much better range and fuel efficiency.
 
Moon said:
Really sucks that the crew from the day before didn’t report the error to maintenance after they landed, might have prevented the crash the following day. Also strange that one pilot knew how to correct the problem, but 4 others did not.

Also, Boeing provided a bulletin to all of its 737 MAX customers following the Lion Air crash, but the Ethiopian Air pilots apparently didn’t know what was happening or how to correct it?

Southwest Airlines has logged more than 40,000 flights and 90,000 hours in the 737 MAX. Boeing flew 2,000 hours during testing prior to certification. Curious that this problem wasn’t identified earlier. Really makes me wonder if it’s only a factor in a very specific set of environmental circumstances.
Click to expand...

The Lion Air plane that crashed had reported AOC sensor errors on its prior flight.

On the flight right before the accident, there was a 20-degree disagreement between the angle of attack sensors, and that caused the airplane to put itself into a dive. The pilots overrode that automation and landed safely.

Apparently Lion Air didn’t bother fixing the problem after landing, because this is exactly what happened on the ill-fated final flight of the aircraft as well. This time, the pilots didn’t override the automation. Had maintenance properly fixed the airplane or had the pilots overridden the automation, the flight would have landed safely. But it didn’t, and now we’re all learning more about the details of how that automation works.
Click to expand...
Whether the MAX Should Have Been Grounded or Not, Boeing Finds Itself in Hot Water | Cranky Flier
 
beefheart said:
One slight correction, the MAX is the duct tape plane to counter the Airbus A319, A320, A321 NEO series of planes, a new generation of the previous models with much better range and fuel efficiency.
Click to expand...

Was that not what I said?
 
PeteEU said:
Was that not what I said?
Click to expand...

Close. The NEO is the next gen of the Airbii, damned good planes, good long range and efficient engines.

The older A319, A320 and A321 are more like the older 737 NG series.

I'm an airline geek, so excuse my geekitude... :2razz:
 
PeteEU said:
Yep I do.. and it is simple, the US pilots are afraid of losing their jobs to foreign pilots so they cast doubt on their training. Now this doubt is often based on nationality and hence race and religion.



The reason is often political. Listen I understand that we dont automatically approve people graduating from a hack online school on Granada, but we are talking about people who have degrees from legit schools world wide. And yes it is often based on nationality, race and religion even over here in Europe. For some reason a Danish speaking Polish doctors are "not good enough" for Danish hospitals.. at least according to some, where as a non Danish speaking English doctor is no problem...

So when an Danish, English, whoever pilot or doctor or whatever states that some guy who got his degree in Jakarta, Warsaw or Moscow or Damascus is not "good enough".. it pisses me off because people should have their abilities based on merit, not that they are so called "foreign".
Click to expand...

Two stories from my personal experience that you might find amusing (and, as they are "anecdotal" the do not constitute "evidence" in any scientific sense):


  1. Mr. K. had a BA in Music from the University of Kiev. He applied for admission to the UBC Graduate School of Music's MA program and was refused because his transcript did not include a course that was specifically named "The History of Music". He attempted to convince the admissions board that the Kiev curriculum didn't include such a course as the courses in strings INCLUDED "the history of string music", the courses in brass INCLUDED "the history of brass music" the courses in composition INCLUDED ... and so on. The admissions board remained adamant, but relented slightly by allowing him to take a fourth year course in "The History of Music" to "rectify the defect in his transcript". Needless to say his attitude in class ticked off the instructor. In fact it ticked off the instructor to the point where the instructor (essentially) said "If you think you're so good, do you think that you can teach this class?". Mr. K's response was (essentially) "Yes.". In response to that the instructor challenged him to teach the next class. After teaching the next class, the instructor ended up offering Mr. K an A in the course and a position as a teaching assistant. Mr. K took him up on it and taught the rest of the course that he was enrolled in.

  2. Dr. M was a Hungarian refugee, and was denied a licence to practice medicine by the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons due to "lack of relevant Canadian experience". In order to qualify to practice medicine Dr. M was required to complete a one year internship in an accredited hospital and, after the completion of that internship, would be licensed as a "General Practitioner". During a cardiac arrest emergency, no one could get an IV started on the very frail and quite elderly patient. Dr. M (who was not on the crash team) happened to be passing through the ER and one of the nurses asked him if he could try to establish the IV (since none of the specially trained IV team nurses had been able to do so and he was the only doctor around). Dr. M got the IV running on his first try. When one of the nurses expressed surprise at how easily he had been able to do that, his response was (essentially) "After 25 years as a pediatric surgeon, the vein was huge.".

PS - Both Mr. K and Dr. M were fluent (and literate) in English (as well as three other languages).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom