Extra pilot averted disaster on previous Boeing 737 Max 8 flight - report

From CNN


Extra pilot averted disaster on previous Boeing 737 Max 8 flight - report

(CNN)An off-duty pilot in the cockpit of a Boeing 737 Max 8 jet jumped in to help crew disable a malfunctioning flight-control system as it experienced difficulties in October, according to Bloomberg.

The next day, with a different crew, the same plane crashed into the sea off Jakarta, killing all 189 people on board.

On doomed Lion Air Flight 610, pilots searched in a handbook for a way to stop the plane from nosediving, according to an exclusive Reuters report.

Reuters cites the information from three people with knowledge of the contents of the cockpit voice recorder that has never been made public.

COMMENT:-

The more we learn the worse it gets. The utter corruption in the FAA, Boeing and US government is mind-boggling. Now before this becomes another anti Trump thread, the corruption goes back several administrations so it has no real political colour. Is it the fault of Trump,..sure but the rot was there before him. The fact he personally involved himself in the case is a massive political problem...at least Obama and Bush x 2 and Clinton had common sense to let their minions corrupt the system.



Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk

TU Curmudgeon said:

From CNN


Extra pilot averted disaster on previous Boeing 737 Max 8 flight - report

(CNN)An off-duty pilot in the cockpit of a Boeing 737 Max 8 jet jumped in to help crew disable a malfunctioning flight-control system as it experienced difficulties in October, according to Bloomberg.

The next day, with a different crew, the same plane crashed into the sea off Jakarta, killing all 189 people on board.

On doomed Lion Air Flight 610, pilots searched in a handbook for a way to stop the plane from nosediving, according to an exclusive Reuters report.

Reuters cites the information from three people with knowledge of the contents of the cockpit voice recorder that has never been made public.

COMMENT:-

Three strikes and you're ...

Read down to the

"Safety is Boeing's number one priority and we have full confidence in the safety of the Max," Boeing said in a statement on March 12.

"We understand that regulatory agencies and customers have made decisions that they believe are most appropriate for their home markets. It is also important to note that the Federal Aviation Administration is not mandating any further action at this time, and based on the information currently available, we do not have any basis to issue new guidance to operators."
​

bit if you want a "good" laugh.
​

Click to expand...

This "problem" was very preventable, its called training. Boeing and the airlines did not emphasize the new control scheme and how to adjust in case it fails during the training of these pilots. Its in the technical manual but not in the pilots manual. Note the pilot should read and know both manuals. Blame goes around to everyone Boeing and the airlines and the pilots. This "problem" has been known by US pilots flying the aircraft since the beginning, they were fine flying the aircraft since they knew the procedure to correct the problem which is just flipping a couple of switches.

Agreed with PeteEU... the more we find out about this the worse it gets.

It is extraordinary that the very plane, the previous day to the crash killing everyone on that flight, was saved by an "extra pilot" who just happened to be in the cockpit to deal with a "malfunctioning flight-control system." This is on top of a previous crash, numerous complaints and concerns about the 737 max 8, etc.

Now we hear the crew on the doomed flight was going through manuals as the plane was on the way down.

You cannot make this **** up.

What the hell is going on over at Boeing and the FAA.

PirateMk1 said:

This "problem" was very preventable, its called training. Boeing and the airlines did not emphasize the new control scheme and how to adjust in case it fails during the training of these pilots. Its in the technical manual but not in the pilots manual. Note the pilot should read and know both manuals. Blame goes around to everyone Boeing and the airlines and the pilots. This "problem" has been known by US pilots flying the aircraft since the beginning, they were fine flying the aircraft since they knew the procedure to correct the problem which is just flipping a couple of switches.

Click to expand...

Yes. Like most pilots I want to know everything about the systems in my aircraft. It’s inconceivable to me that Boeing glossed over a system that makes control inputs. 737 drivers are rightly furious about this.

Gaius46 said:

Yes. Like most pilots I want to know everything about the systems in my aircraft. It’s inconceivable to me that Boeing glossed over a system that makes control inputs. 737 drivers are rightly furious about this.

Click to expand...

What are they furious about?

PeteEU said:

The more we learn the worse it gets. The utter corruption in the FAA, Boeing and US government is mind-boggling. Now before this becomes another anti Trump thread, the corruption goes back several administrations so it has no real political colour. Is it the fault of Trump,..sure but the rot was there before him. The fact he personally involved himself in the case is a massive political problem...at least Obama and Bush x 2 and Clinton had common sense to let their minions corrupt the system.



Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Before we start calling the FAA and the industry corrupt keep in mind that the US hasn’t had a fatal part 121 - air carrier - accident in years and is arguably the safest air transport system in the world.

That said one of the problems the FAA has always been a conflicted agency in that it has two mandates: safety and fostering aviation and those two sometimes come into conflict.

Boeing and the FAA made some serious mistakes here but I’d hold off on calling them corrupt.

PirateMk1 said:

What are they furious about?

Click to expand...

Not being told about the MCAS system. Several pilots have gone on record stating they didn’t know the system existed and had no training on it. It’s apparently documented in the manual but it should have been called out.

Gaius46 said:

Before we start calling the FAA and the industry corrupt keep in mind that the US hasn’t had a fatal part 121 - air carrier - accident in years and is arguably the safest air transport system in the world.

That said one of the problems the FAA has always been a conflicted agency in that it has two mandates: safety and fostering aviation and those two sometimes come into conflict.

Boeing and the FAA made some serious mistakes here but I’d hold off on calling them corrupt.

Click to expand...

Yes I understand, but Boeing has been under massive pressure from Airbus the last decade.

People forget the 737 Max is basically a duct tape plane thrown together to counter the Airbus A321 and A319...long range single aisle planes.

Now when you have the government in your pocket like Boeing has (regardless of political colour), getting the regulator to play ball as well is a godsend as long as you don't get caught. That it took the deaths of 100s of people to expose the problem only makes it worse....since the FAA was clearly made aware of the problems but did nothing about it.

The question is why the FAA sat on the information....political or/and financial reasons? Or outright incompetence... I am sadly praying for the last one.



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TU Curmudgeon said:

From CNN


Extra pilot averted disaster on previous Boeing 737 Max 8 flight - report

(CNN)An off-duty pilot in the cockpit of a Boeing 737 Max 8 jet jumped in to help crew disable a malfunctioning flight-control system as it experienced difficulties in October, according to Bloomberg.

The next day, with a different crew, the same plane crashed into the sea off Jakarta, killing all 189 people on board.

On doomed Lion Air Flight 610, pilots searched in a handbook for a way to stop the plane from nosediving, according to an exclusive Reuters report.

Reuters cites the information from three people with knowledge of the contents of the cockpit voice recorder that has never been made public.

COMMENT:-

Three strikes and you're ...

Read down to the

"Safety is Boeing's number one priority and we have full confidence in the safety of the Max," Boeing said in a statement on March 12.

"We understand that regulatory agencies and customers have made decisions that they believe are most appropriate for their home markets. It is also important to note that the Federal Aviation Administration is not mandating any further action at this time, and based on the information currently available, we do not have any basis to issue new guidance to operators."
​

bit if you want a "good" laugh.
​

Click to expand...

As lamentable as Boeing MCAS software problem is at some point one probably has to ask where does good old fashioned 'seat of the pants' flying experience, professional airmanship and crew resource management come into play? Take the Asiana 777 crash at San Francisco in 2013 for instance. The plane came down short of the runway because of the flight crew mismanagement of final approach. The plane came too low and slow because of erroneous inputs by the captain that resulted in him inadvertently turning off the auto-throttle airspeed control system that Asiana pilots were trained to almost completely rely upon for their landing approaches. In fact till that point the captain had never executed "visual landing" with a 777. Not even once! Not even in a simulator. Frankly I find that hard to imagine.

An Air France flight plunged into the Atlantic in 2009 because the crew essentially panicked and made incorrect control inputs while also mismanaging the automated flight control systems because of erroneous airspeed indications coming from a blocked pitot tube. A pitot tube becoming blocked by foreign materials such as ice crystals is not exactly a brand new phenomena in aviation. It happens. And in years past pilots would train for how to respond to erroneous airspeed indications due to pitot tube malfunctions. Once again lack of training in manually controlling an aircraft was cited as a contributing cause. This time manual control at high altitudes while experiencing airspeed indication anomalies. The crew even failed to recognized that they were in a stall.

Because of accidents of this sort that appear to point to a problem with flight crews perhaps relying too heavily upon automated systems on their aircraft leaving them vulnerable to losses of control when these systems either malfunction or are mismanaged. Many US airlines and flight training schools decided it was time to reinforce basic (seat of the pants) flying and airmanship skills. With not only additional simulator training. But also doing it for real in an actual aircraft because simulators cannot fully replicate all the sights, sounds, sensations and even emotions you will feel and experience in certain emergency events. Such as a over bank situation past 90 degrees resulting in "upset" or what we used to extreme unusual attitudes. Which is what appears to be what finally doomed the Ethiopia and Lion Air flights. Formal research has shown that 90% of pilots without prior upset training, regardless of experience level from PPL to ATP, will most likely pull into the ground when faced with such a situation for the first time.

TU Curmudgeon said:

From CNN


Extra pilot averted disaster on previous Boeing 737 Max 8 flight - report

(CNN)An off-duty pilot in the cockpit of a Boeing 737 Max 8 jet jumped in to help crew disable a malfunctioning flight-control system as it experienced difficulties in October, according to Bloomberg.

The next day, with a different crew, the same plane crashed into the sea off Jakarta, killing all 189 people on board.

On doomed Lion Air Flight 610, pilots searched in a handbook for a way to stop the plane from nosediving, according to an exclusive Reuters report.

Reuters cites the information from three people with knowledge of the contents of the cockpit voice recorder that has never been made public.

COMMENT:-

Three strikes and you're ...

Read down to the

"Safety is Boeing's number one priority and we have full confidence in the safety of the Max," Boeing said in a statement on March 12.

"We understand that regulatory agencies and customers have made decisions that they believe are most appropriate for their home markets. It is also important to note that the Federal Aviation Administration is not mandating any further action at this time, and based on the information currently available, we do not have any basis to issue new guidance to operators."
​

bit if you want a "good" laugh.
​

Click to expand...

Really sucks that the crew from the day before didn’t report the error to maintenance after they landed, might have prevented the crash the following day. Also strange that one pilot knew how to correct the problem, but 4 others did not.

Also, Boeing provided a bulletin to all of its 737 MAX customers following the Lion Air crash, but the Ethiopian Air pilots apparently didn’t know what was happening or how to correct it?

Southwest Airlines has logged more than 40,000 flights and 90,000 hours in the 737 MAX. Boeing flew 2,000 hours during testing prior to certification. Curious that this problem wasn’t identified earlier. Really makes me wonder if it’s only a factor in a very specific set of environmental circumstances.

Atomic Kid said:

As lamentable as Boeing MCAS software problem is at some point one probably has to ask where does good old fashioned 'seat of the pants' flying experience, professional airmanship and crew resource management come into play? Take the Asiana 777 crash at San Francisco in 2013 for instance. The plane came down short of the runway because of the flight crew mismanagement of final approach. The plane came too low and slow because of erroneous inputs by the captain that resulted in him inadvertently turning off the auto-throttle airspeed control system that Asiana pilots were trained to almost completely rely upon for their landing approaches. In fact till that point the captain had never executed "visual landing" with a 777. Not even once! Not even in a simulator. Frankly I find that hard to imagine.

An Air France flight plunged into the Atlantic in 2009 because the crew essentially panicked and made incorrect control inputs while also mismanaging the automated flight control systems because of erroneous airspeed indications coming from a blocked pitot tube. A pitot tube becoming blocked by foreign materials such as ice crystals is not exactly a brand new phenomena in aviation. It happens. And in years past pilots would train for how to respond to erroneous airspeed indications due to pitot tube malfunctions. Once again lack of training in manually controlling an aircraft was cited as a contributing cause. This time manual control at high altitudes while experiencing airspeed indication anomalies. The crew even failed to recognized that they were in a stall.

Because of accidents of this sort that appear to point to a problem with flight crews perhaps relying too heavily upon automated systems on their aircraft leaving them vulnerable to losses of control when these systems either malfunction or are mismanaged. Many US airlines and flight training schools decided it was time to reinforce basic (seat of the pants) flying and airmanship skills. With not only additional simulator training. But also doing it for real in an actual aircraft because simulators cannot fully replicate all the sights, sounds, sensations and even emotions you will feel and experience in certain emergency events. Such as a over bank situation past 90 degrees resulting in "upset" or what we used to extreme unusual attitudes. Which is what appears to be what finally doomed the Ethiopia and Lion Air flights. Formal research has shown that 90% of pilots without prior upset training, regardless of experience level from PPL to ATP, will most likely pull into the ground when faced with such a situation for the first time.

Click to expand...

Agreed though I don’t know that you can pin a lack of stick-and-rudder skills on these two - at least just yet. If the MCAS was commanding a nose down attitude it’s not a stick and rudder issue its more lack of physical strength to counter the MCAS and not turning the damned thing off. With proper systems training I’d hazard that those accidents would not have happened.

Your other points are well taken. Automation is wonderful thing - no human can hand fly a plane as accurately as the automation nor can can humans wring as much performance as the electrons. But the downside of automation is as you point out atrophying skills.

PirateMk1 said:

This "problem" was very preventable, its called training. Boeing and the airlines did not emphasize the new control scheme and how to adjust in case it fails during the training of these pilots. Its in the technical manual but not in the pilots manual. Note the pilot should read and know both manuals. Blame goes around to everyone Boeing and the airlines and the pilots. This "problem" has been known by US pilots flying the aircraft since the beginning, they were fine flying the aircraft since they knew the procedure to correct the problem which is just flipping a couple of switches.

Click to expand...

Bye bye boeing!

Gaius46 said:

Not being told about the MCAS system. Several pilots have gone on record stating they didn’t know the system existed and had no training on it. It’s apparently documented in the manual but it should have been called out.

Click to expand...

Mind you my flight experience is minimal mainly small aircraft physically in the cockpit and remote drones of various varieties including turbine powered, less than 200hrs flight time total, but I am under the understanding its the pilots responsibility to fully understand the aircraft and the characteristics therein before flying them.

That said why did Boeing a) not point the system out and b) recommend some minimal training on the system?

ralphcdp said:

Bye bye boeing!

Click to expand...

If that were to occur, do you think that would be a good thing? If so, why?

PeteEU said:

The more we learn the worse it gets. The utter corruption in the FAA, Boeing and US government is mind-boggling. Now before this becomes another anti Trump thread, the corruption goes back several administrations so it has no real political colour. Is it the fault of Trump,..sure but the rot was there before him. The fact he personally involved himself in the case is a massive political problem...at least Obama and Bush x 2 and Clinton had common sense to let their minions corrupt the system.



Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Money bought corruption which made more money.

And the feedback loop of money into corruption occasionally does things like this.

It may be impossible to cut that loop, but we have to anyway.

Gaius46 said:

Agreed though I don’t know that you can pin a lack of stick-and-rudder skills on these two - at least just yet. If the MCAS was commanding a nose down attitude it’s not a stick and rudder issue its more lack of physical strength to counter the MCAS and not turning the damned thing off. With proper systems training I’d hazard that those accidents would not have happened.

Your other points are well taken. Automation is wonderful thing - no human can hand fly a plane as accurately as the automation nor can can humans wring as much performance as the electrons. But the downside of automation is as you point out atrophying skills.

Click to expand...

As I understand it it the MCAS system does not induce deflections of the full stabilizer/elevator, but rather the trim tabs associated with stabilizer/elevator. Which are smaller surfaces on the trailing edges. But still I suspect it might be somewhat significant with a aircraft the size of 737 since you're basically trying to overcome the mechanical forces of a jack-screw driven by electric motors. How much force I don't know because I have never flown anything the size of a 737. But I would suspect that it would not be nearly as bad as a loss of hydraulics or some kind of mechanical hangup of the main stabilizer, but very much disconcerting and ultimately physically and mentally exhausting nonetheless.

In the case of the Ethiopia Air pilots the pilot in command had over 8000 thousand hours of flight experience. Which is pretty a healthy amount of hours considering that he was just 29 years old. But I suspect that it might not be a lot of flight experience for a US airline pilot in command standpoint. Which the national average is 45 to 46 years old. The first officer on that flight was 25 years old with just 200 hours of experience in that aircraft type. Which I would suspect would mean that the first officer was really pretty much of no use to the pilot in command in that situation and he ended up trying manage this cluster**** of a situation mostly by himself. I don't know which of them was communicating with ATC. But the communications right from the get go were described as sounding "very scared". Which is not a good sign. Yes it's human to be scared in that situation but you have manage and control that fear and continue to 'fly the airplane' first and then work the problem.

As I understand it the MCAS system can be overridden by the manual inputs made on the control column or trim wheels by the throttle quadrant. But it will only be temporary for 5 seconds or so if the angle of attack sensor is still detecting a stall configuration and MCAS will kick in again and pitch the nose down. I don't know but it would seem to me that after several such similar events happening at nearly the same interval that someone should've been able to deduce that there was some sort of automated flight system affecting the stabilizer/elevator trim controls and start focusing their efforts on disabling any system that has to do with stabilizer/elevator trim at some point if they still have their wits about them.

Apparently an off duty pilot flying along in a jump seat, who didn't have the burden of trying re-establish control of the aircraft and was emotionally in control enough to 'work the problem' in his head managed to troubleshoot the problem and come up with the needed correction. Even though he had no previous knowledge of the existence of the MCAS system. How was it that he could do so but no one else could? How was it that every American air crew was eventually able to do so, despite perhaps being no better informed about it's existence than their Ethiopian counterparts? More importantly if this off duty pilot actions were as vital in "rescuing" the aircraft as they making it out to be in the media reports. Why wasn't this potentially 'life saving' remedy to the problem immediately communicated to every pilot or crew member in their fleet assigned to flying the 737 Max? Even more disturbing is why after 3 or 4 previously reported incidents occurred having to do with the very same plane. Why did they continue flying it?

Gaius46 said:

Agreed though I don’t know that you can pin a lack of stick-and-rudder skills on these two - at least just yet. If the MCAS was commanding a nose down attitude it’s not a stick and rudder issue its more lack of physical strength to counter the MCAS and not turning the damned thing off. With proper systems training I’d hazard that those accidents would not have happened.

Your other points are well taken. Automation is wonderful thing - no human can hand fly a plane as accurately as the automation nor can can humans wring as much performance as the electrons. But the downside of automation is as you point out atrophying skills.

Click to expand...

I've spoken with a number of commercial pilots over the years and many of them expressed to me their concern that foreign trained pilots are poorly trained. One told me they were trained to "operate computers, not pilot aircraft."

With today's technology, we only need real pilots when things start going wrong. Captain Sully comes to mind.

Stealers Wheel said:

I've spoken with a number of commercial pilots over the years and many of them expressed to me their concern that foreign trained pilots are poorly trained. One told me they were trained to "operate computers, not pilot aircraft."

With today's technology, we only need real pilots when things start going wrong. Captain Sully comes to mind.

Click to expand...

Not uncommon attitude...it is basic xenophobia and ignorance. You see it all over the place from doctors to engineers and other jobs.

But as in all aspects of life, it comes down to the individual and not the race, colour, nationality or religion of the person.

As for Sully...what he did was his job...just as other foreign pilots did before him and after him. He got a movie, they did not. I remember a similar accident with a SAS plane a decade before...sure it did not land in a cold river, but in a field...but still all people walked away.

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk

Atomic Kid said:

As I understand it it the MCAS system does not induce deflections of the full stabilizer/elevator, but rather the trim tabs associated with stabilizer/elevator. Which are smaller surfaces on the trailing edges. But still I suspect it might be somewhat significant with a aircraft the size of 737 since you're basically trying to overcome the mechanical forces of a jack-screw driven by electric motors. How much force I don't know because I have never flown anything the size of a 737. But I would suspect that it would not be nearly as bad as a loss of hydraulics or some kind of mechanical hangup of the main stabilizer, but very much disconcerting and ultimately physically and mentally exhausting nonetheless.

Click to expand...

...edited to comply with length restrictions.

How many occurrences were there with American aircrews? I only know of the one on the OP and then only from the OP.

I’ve never flown anything bigger than a light twin so I have no direct experience but I do know that misset trim has produced fatal accidents with much smaller aircraft.

Colgan Air has one around 2000-2001. A Beech 1900 - basically a stretch King Air - that had maintenance work done where the shop improperly reinstalled the trim system. I don’t remember the details it they wound up with a full nose down trim situation just after takeoff. End result was they crashed in Long Island Sound. Thankfully it was a ferry flight flight so only the flight crew was aboard. Both died. An acquaintance of my best friend and flying partner was the FO on that flight.

NTSB determined that it would have required more force to overcome the trim missetting than the vast majority of humans can apply. They ran a number of simulator tests. As I recall none ended in a safe landing.

That’s on a aircraft with much smaller stabilizers than a 737 flying in a low airspeed regime. No doubt in my mind that a runaway trim situation in a 737 would be invariably fatal.

I don’t know how MCAS works so I really can’t speculate on what actually happened but if the MCAS commanded a nose down attitude to maintain/increase airspeed the pilots were t going to overcome that by brute force.

You may be right on experience and on the failure of the crew to diagnose the condition. I’d simply caution jumping to conclusions. It takes the NTSB months or years to reach definite conclusions as you know. I for one am not going to judge their performance based on news reports.

PirateMk1 said:

Mind you my flight experience is minimal mainly small aircraft physically in the cockpit and remote drones of various varieties including turbine powered, less than 200hrs flight time total, but I am under the understanding its the pilots responsibility to fully understand the aircraft and the characteristics therein before flying them.

That said why did Boeing a) not point the system out and b) recommend some minimal training on the system?

Click to expand...

You are correct. As a practical matter though air carriers, as I understand it, take the responsibility for training flight crews on new aircraft and presumably pointing out things things that the pilots need to focus on.

TU Curmudgeon said:

From CNN


Extra pilot averted disaster on previous Boeing 737 Max 8 flight - report

(CNN)An off-duty pilot in the cockpit of a Boeing 737 Max 8 jet jumped in to help crew disable a malfunctioning flight-control system as it experienced difficulties in October, according to Bloomberg.

The next day, with a different crew, the same plane crashed into the sea off Jakarta, killing all 189 people on board.

On doomed Lion Air Flight 610, pilots searched in a handbook for a way to stop the plane from nosediving, according to an exclusive Reuters report.

Reuters cites the information from three people with knowledge of the contents of the cockpit voice recorder that has never been made public.

COMMENT:-

Three strikes and you're ...

Read down to the

"Safety is Boeing's number one priority and we have full confidence in the safety of the Max," Boeing said in a statement on March 12.

"We understand that regulatory agencies and customers have made decisions that they believe are most appropriate for their home markets. It is also important to note that the Federal Aviation Administration is not mandating any further action at this time, and based on the information currently available, we do not have any basis to issue new guidance to operators."
​

bit if you want a "good" laugh.
​

Click to expand...

That's interesting.... but also further highlights the problem with this airline and the training of it's pilots. If the plane was saved from tragedy the previous day by a third pilot, due to a known issue in a manual easily accessible to him: 1) Why didn't they pull that plane from service and evaluate the problem, 2) why didn't they pass that information on to the other pilots, 3) why didn't they even leave a note/bookmark in that page for the other pilots to look at, 4) why weren't the pilots familiar with the issue to start with, as they (reportedly) are in the US?

Gaius46 said:

...edited to comply with length restrictions.

How many occurrences were there with American aircrews? I only know of the one on the OP and then only from the OP.

I’ve never flown anything bigger than a light twin so I have no direct experience but I do know that misset trim has produced fatal accidents with much smaller aircraft.

Colgan Air has one around 2000-2001. A Beech 1900 - basically a stretch King Air - that had maintenance work done where the shop improperly reinstalled the trim system. I don’t remember the details it they wound up with a full nose down trim situation just after takeoff. End result was they crashed in Long Island Sound. Thankfully it was a ferry flight flight so only the flight crew was aboard. Both died. An acquaintance of my best friend and flying partner was the FO on that flight.

NTSB determined that it would have required more force to overcome the trim missetting than the vast majority of humans can apply. They ran a number of simulator tests. As I recall none ended in a safe landing.

That’s on a aircraft with much smaller stabilizers than a 737 flying in a low airspeed regime. No doubt in my mind that a runaway trim situation in a 737 would be invariably fatal.

I don’t know how MCAS works so I really can’t speculate on what actually happened but if the MCAS commanded a nose down attitude to maintain/increase airspeed the pilots were t going to overcome that by brute force.

You may be right on experience and on the failure of the crew to diagnose the condition. I’d simply caution jumping to conclusions. It takes the NTSB months or years to reach definite conclusions as you know. I for one am not going to judge their performance based on news reports.

Click to expand...

US pilots reportedly made at least 5 complaints about the 737 Max in the months before the crashes.

Pilots complained at least 5 times about Boeing 737 MAX problems, records show - POLITICO

"Pilots complained at least 5 times about Boeing 737 MAX problems, records show"

Experienced 737 pilots are also perplexed by another aspect of the Lion Air crew's performance on that ill fated flight.

The captain then asked the first officer to check the quick reference handbook, which contains checklists for abnormal events.

For the next nine minutes, the Lion Air 737’s warning system alerted the pilots it was approaching an aerodynamic stall and pushed the nose down in response.

Sources said that the captain fought to climb, but the computer, still incorrectly sensing a stall, continued to push the nose down using the plane’s trim system located in the tail of the aircraft.

But the sources told Reuters that the Lion Air pilots “didn’t seem to know the trim was moving down, they thought only about airspeed and altitude. That was the only thing they talked about.”

This activated the stabilizer trim wheel in the cockpit which would have been spinning forward and making a loud noise. How the pilots could have missed this or its significance has stunned 737 pilots.

What is called a “Runaway Stabilizer Trim” is a memory item for pilots. You don’t need the checklist, you simply switch it off.

According to the sources the pilots of JT610 remained calm for most of the flight and near the end, the captain requested the first officer to fly while he checked the manual for a solution but he was unable to control the plane with the Flight Data Recorder revealing his inputs were weaker than the captain.

In the last minute, the Indian-born captain was silent while the Indonesian first officer said “Allahu Akbar,” or “God is greatest.”

Lion Air and Boeing did not comment on the report.

Click to expand...

Confusion and prayer in Lion Air cockpit - Airline Ratings

"CONFUSION AND PRAYER IN LION AIR COCKPIT"

I have also seen a report in the NY Times I believe that Ethiopia Air pilots had received no previous 737 Max simulator training prior to the accident

The **** storm has hit the European FAA as well. Europe and the US have had an agreement to basically accept each other certifications of airplanes without much hassle and that is of course based on trust. That trust has been obliterated by this situation, which means that European governments and national regulators will now most likely push for independent accreditation... not good.

PeteEU said:

The more we learn the worse it gets. The utter corruption in the FAA, Boeing and US government is mind-boggling. Now before this becomes another anti Trump thread, the corruption goes back several administrations so it has no real political colour. Is it the fault of Trump,..sure but the rot was there before him. The fact he personally involved himself in the case is a massive political problem...at least Obama and Bush x 2 and Clinton had common sense to let their minions corrupt the system.

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

What did President Trump, candidate trump, or ordinary joe Trump, have to do with a plane crash in Indonesia?