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Many Dead in New Zealand Mosque Shooting

This is sick. Also, New Zealand has pretty strong gun control laws. Just saying that, no matter how strict a government is on guns, some people are still going to obtain them.

This requires a bit of clarification as well.

We do not have gun control laws. What we do have is strong gun registration laws.

In new zealand you can own any type of gun you like. One new zealander legally own a german ww2 tank.

In new zealand the gun philosophy is not control the gun but instead control the gun owner.

You have to register all your guns. What in america are only tips about gun safety is law in new zealand.
There is control on when, where and how you can fire a gun.

There is no problem obtaining a gun in new zealand
55,000 guns imported each year - NZ Herald
More than 500,000 firearms, worth $242 million, have been legally imported into New Zealand over the past decade, newly obtained figures have revealed.

Around 55,000 new firearms - including high-powered hunting rifles, shotguns, pistols, semi-automatic weapons, and restricted airguns - come into the country every year,

Police said they believe there are around 1.5 million guns in New Zealand. There are around 230,000 licensed firearms owners.

We have a lot of firearms. New Zealand has one of the highest rates [of gun ownership] per capita in the world and we're good with it - it's not doing any harm," said Mr Tipple.

The police national manager for response and operations, Superintendent Chris Scahill, said firearms-related offending remains "consistently very low" - accounting for an average of 1.3 per cent of all violent offending over the past five years.

"New Zealand has a robust firearms control regime, which has been in place for about 30 years and is supported by international experience and best practice," he said.

"The regime is focused on ensuring those who use firearms are fit and proper people to do so."
 
And when you have more of those one guys with a rifle as a result of lax gun laws then you inevitably up your chances for a mass shooting.

No, the potential for the same number of shootings is there. It is not based on gun numbers or gun type...it's based 100% on motivation.

What laws would have stopped this? THere or here? I wrote that the most basic of laws allow a (non-restricted) citizen to own at least one gun AND that the gun would always at least be one that could be used for hunting or home protection.

And that's all it takes to kill 50+ unarmed people in public.


Yes, it does matter. More firearms = more chances of firearm abuse. Deadlier firearms = more casualties. You think these Aussies would have murder 49 or so Muslims with a musket?

We are just discussing active shootings here (or at least I am only doing so)

You are only making the argument Americans aren't mature enough to handle guns.

No, I'm pointing out that somehow, we are producing a lot of POS loser (mostly white) males that are motivated to do these shootings. Is that cultural? Probably in part.

These shootings are almost exclusively committed by such men.
 
This cold blooded murderous shooting is the unintended consequences of retaliation for the
far left policies of unfettered and unvetted Muslim immigration into non Muslim nations.

Diversity & Multiculturalism has never been a strength of any country
You don't put rattlesnakes in the baby's crib and tell people oh that's just diversity.
Though the horse is out of the barn now & nothing can be done about it but Muslims belong in
Muslim countries. Everyone is safer that way.

Given that you repeat the Trump metaphor of immigrants as snakes, you obviously should be our next UN Ambassador. You do realize that you are also carrying on the proud record of fear of Irish, Italian, and Jewish immigrants? In this day of rapid change in society, it's good to know some people are keeping the old traditions alive. Glad the kids can witness this.
 
This cold blooded murderous shooting is the unintended consequences of retaliation for the
far left policies of unfettered and unvetted Muslim immigration into non Muslim nations.

Diversity & Multiculturalism has never been a strength of any country
You don't put rattlesnakes in the baby's crib and tell people oh that's just diversity.
Though the horse is out of the barn now & nothing can be done about it but Muslims belong in
Muslim countries. Everyone is safer that way.
I would have many things to say to this, but just about all of it would break the rules here.
 
Glad you agreed about Hillary. Notice though that you said nothing about Biden, who by some accounts, looks to be tossing his hat in the rink for president 2020.

I did not mention Biden by name (nor I did Bill) but I said "They all certainly did." I am aware Biden has said racist/sexist/controversial things in the past and I do not support such talk. Voters obviously forgive the controversial talk. I mean, we do have President *****-Grabber in the WH...
 
What about Jews?
What about the Irish?
What about the Italians?
What about the Catholics?
What about the Chinese?

All of them faced discrimination by the so-called 'native' people of the USA because they were considered too violent, deceitful, idolatrous, or whatever. Are they all rattlesnakes?

They were all white European ethnics mostly all Christian who were able to blend in to build the USA
into the greatest economic & military power in the world a half a century before your 'Age of Diversity'

Then all of a sudden the 'Wise Men' in Washington came up with a great policy back in 1965- massive
3rd world invasion and total surrender on the border. Let's all pretend it ain't so. Pretend if you wish
that since then the projection of US dominance has not tended downward.

The Chinese! why bring them up?
 
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You seem to be in denial of several points, at least the first being self-evident.

a) Yes, there is a difference between a deranged individual who would be violent in any context AND a person who would otherwise be normal person but for his/her indoctrination into fanatical belief systems and groups. The former tends to be a lone wolf sociopath, the second tends to be a fanaticized member of a group.

b) At this point, nothing precludes this shooter being one or the other (or some of both). However, the killers rantings of hate are not determinative of the source of their violence because BOTH kinds will express "reasons", be they a sane person or not.

c) What we do know is that Lone Wolfs tend to be individuals that would do sick things in any context. The Unabomber isn't the product of the anti- industrial complex indoctrination, he's a brilliant social dropout who needed to find a way to strike at society, and he made up his own ranting delusional excuses. And much the same could be said of many other lone "hate" killers - although on the surface their "excuse" may be Allah, White Supremacy, Gay Immorality, or anti-abortion.

d) If the killer turns out to be a lone wolf, then he likely has a diseased mind that does not represent a movement or belief system - although he may have embraced their views as a rationale or his rage.


I think you miss the current political climate in the ''western rhetoric'' given the elections results in last years.

This is not a '' lone wolf'' case; quite the opposite the public perception in the west had mentally been cooked accordingly till such physical terror attack(s) given the words on the rifles, now ''individual(s)'' has started to act by the same indoctrination regardless of their countries or continents.

Therefore, Such attacks will take place more than ever and no security precaution can stop it unless the climate changes.

So, Trump is indirectly responsible.
 
Because when I was in Iraq I didn't walk around shooting unarmed citizens whilst live streaming it.

Neither did Americans.
I have a feeling ralphcdp is anti US/UK.
 
Did I dispute the fact that there is left wing environmental terrorism? It will probably become worse in fact, but that has nothing to do with what happened yesterday in Christchurch, NZ. If you want to make an imaginary connection that doesn't exist, then have at it, my analysis of Eco-Fascism I would bet is far more historically accurate than yours which I assume is seeking to be self-serving like all the other Right Wingers around here.

Considering you are new.. don't assume anything about me. Eco-Fasicism needs the State to do it's policies. If you have to rely on the State to achieve what you want then you are not right on the political paradigm. You are to the left. This is where most on the left (Statist) want people to ignore.
 
I did not mention Biden by name (nor I did Bill) but I said "They all certainly did." I am aware Biden has said racist/sexist/controversial things in the past and I do not support such talk. Voters obviously forgive the controversial talk. I mean, we do have President *****-Grabber in the WH...

Admittedly, I missed the above.
Apologies.
 
That's true too but we, normal people, call them psychotic and every other bad name in the book, only because we can't comprehend the mindset of terrorists. When push comes to shove most terrorists are found competent to stand trial.

Sure. Let's leave aside the moot point whether 'psychotic' is a 'bad name'.
 
Considering you are new.. don't assume anything about me. Eco-Fasicism needs the State to do it's policies. If you have to rely on the State to achieve what you want then you are not right on the political paradigm. You are to the left. This is where most on the left (Statist) want people to ignore.
You are looking at Conservatism totally in an Anglo-American perspective as if Liberal Conservatism sums up the tradition. There are plenty of Right Wing ideologies contrary to what you present that employ the government in all kinds of roles. It is only the Liberal Conservative tradition that has an emphasis on a limited role of government, that is not necessarily how Conservatism developed on the Continent.

I encounter this lazy old argument from just about every Libertarian I run into, so don't feel bad, you just need a more expansive education on the history of political philosophy.
 
Given that you repeat the Trump metaphor of immigrants as snakes, you obviously should be our next UN Ambassador. You do realize that you are also carrying on the proud record of fear of Irish, Italian, and Jewish immigrants? In this day of rapid change in society, it's good to know some people are keeping the old traditions alive. Glad the kids can witness this.

Post #531 somewhat explains the difference of previous ethnic immigrations & the success they had.
Better yet -

'All these people were European. All were white. Almost all were Christian.
After each wave of immigration, there were long periods little or no immigration
that gave America time to assimilate the newcomers. And before they were fully assimilated, their children and grandchildren passed through deeply patriotic pubic and parochial schools where they were immersed in the language, literature, history and traditions of this unique people. Today, however those schools have been converted into madrassa of modernity, where it is forbidden to invoke the faith of our fathers and American history is often taught as a series of crimes against people of color.'
isbn:1429990600 - Google Search

That's why immigration from the 1860's to the 1960's for the most part worked & because of recent immigration
the fortunes of this country has tended downwards.

Celebrants of diversity always point to the successful huge waves of immigration between 1850 &
1920. They ignore these crucial elements mentioned above that then made America work.
 
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This cold blooded murderous shooting is the unintended consequences of retaliation for the
far left policies of unfettered and unvetted Muslim immigration into non Muslim nations.

Diversity & Multiculturalism has never been a strength of any country
You don't put rattlesnakes in the baby's crib and tell people oh that's just diversity.
Though the horse is out of the barn now & nothing can be done about it but Muslims belong in
Muslim countries. Everyone is safer that way.

I agree. That’s why we should immediately deport everyone who thinks like you and this gang of thugs do. After all, you don’t put the rattlesnake in the crip with the baby.
 
They were all white European ethnics mostly all Christian who were able to blend in to build the USA
into the greatest economic & military power in the world a half a century before your 'Age of Diversity'

Jews were considered too shifty and greedy and some believed they would use their power through the banks to bring down the country.
Nowadays, right-wing nuts believe Jews control the media to spread 'left-wing propaganda.'

The Irish were considered too violent, drunk, and unsophisticated to adapt to American life.

The Italians (along with most Southern Europeans) were considered lazy, dumb, violent and indebted to the pope

Catholics were considered loyal to the pope and not to country. This stereotype was a major point used against JFK during his run for president.

The Chinese (who are not 'white Europeans', btw) were considered drug addicts and a threat to white native labor (sound familiar?)

They were all 'rattlesnakes' to the nativists.

Pretend if you wish that since then the projection of US dominance has not tended downward.

Empires always overreach and inevitably fall, as a result. Are you going to blame the White Europeans for bringing down the Roman Empire?


The Chinese! why bring them up?

Umm, why not? Chinese immigrants were discriminated to the point a federal law was passed to stop their immigration.
 
I agree. That’s why we should immediately deport everyone who thinks like you and this gang of thugs do. After all, you don’t put the rattlesnake in the crip with the baby.

So my old pal Tiger begins to chime in, I recall your evaluattions on the events of the 1860’s which were
decisively more deficient than AOC’s take on modern day economics & that’s saying something.
Move along!
 
From what I read only one was a confirmed Aussie. How sure are you that none of the attackers are native Kiwis?

I heard it was the main guy. More coming out today. 2 arrested. One charged with murder due in court today.
 
I'm sorry Bodi. My thoughts are with you. Just awful.

x

Thnx. I live on the North Island in a very rural area. Day is starting. 8am. News remained stable overnight.
 
Jews were considered too shifty and greedy and some believed they would use their power through the banks to bring down the country.
Nowadays, right-wing nuts believe Jews control the media to spread 'left-wing propaganda.'

The Irish were considered too violent, drunk, and unsophisticated to adapt to American life.

The Italians (along with most Southern Europeans) were considered lazy, dumb, violent and indebted to the pope

Catholics were considered loyal to the pope and not to country. This stereotype was a major point used against JFK during his run for president.

The Chinese (who are not 'white Europeans', btw) were considered drug addicts and a threat to white native labor (sound familiar?)

They were all 'rattlesnakes' to the nativists.



Empires always overreach and inevitably fall, as a result. Are you going to blame the White Europeans for bringing down the Roman Empire?




Umm, why not? Chinese immigrants were discriminated to the point a federal law was passed to stop their immigration.

Read my post you replied to again. Honestly I don’t know what your point is. If you are attempting to to contradict my post you’ve
made a very poor unskillful attempt.
 
I thought about you when I turned on the national news this morning and it was covering this story, and only this story. There is no doubt you or people you know will know people involved in this terrible, heartbreaking story.

I can't imagine the pain of New Zealand, the entire community of Christchurch, the first responders and medical staff, and the families of the victims are experiencing today. I stand with you all.

May these poor people rest in peace. What an awful thing.

Thnx.

I feel horrible for the little 4-year old in critical. This A-hole shot children too...
 
Thnx. I live on the North Island in a very rural area. Day is starting. 8am. News remained stable overnight.

My thoughts are with you and all New Zealanders. This kind of thing takes its toll on the psyche of many; 9/11 changed a lot for me as a New Yorker. The bright side of this is you often get to see the good side of humanity as people join together to express their outrage at this kind of barbarity. I hope this is a sobering reminder to the peddlers of divisive rhetoric; the debasing of others can inspire already twisted people to the breaking point.
 
Thnx. I live on the North Island in a very rural area. Day is starting. 8am. News remained stable overnight.

Thoughts with you and your country. Spent the happiest 3 months of my life there.
 
I've no idea NZ's Muslim population, but don't you think the terrorists specifically chose to target a couple Mosques full of worshipers because they knew NZ is a gun free country? Has anyone raised the question as to how the perpetrators got their guns? Good thing a Muslim citizen was armed, (illegally?) and was able to stop at least one of these armed maniacs before there were even more casualties.

NZ is not gun free. You can get a gun with a license. There are gun shops. There are also weapons on the black market, given that known criminals get them too.

New Zealand mosque shootings: New Zealand’s gun control laws, explained - Vox

It's also a myth the NZ police are unarmed. They don't normally carry them on their belts but almost all patrols are by car and IIRC every squad car carries a Glock pistol in the front and an AR-15 in the trunk. So response times are slower, but they have them when they need them.

It also hasn't had a mass shooting in three decades. And hardly had any before that.

If massacres happened every week there might be some cause to call it a gun-related problem but till more facts come out that doesn't seem to be the issue. Given that NZ has managed almost 30 years without a mass shooting goes some way to showing that it does not have a gun problem. A quick internet search will show there is some gun crime - robberies and incidents involving the police have gone up - but then crime in general has due to its crystal meth problem (locally referred to as 'P' for pure). But angry men don't storm into workplaces, schools and houses of worship every other week.

Also, does the NRA, which espouses open gun ownership for all really want to see the Muslims arming themselves to protect their mosques? I think given the right-wing mindset about race and religion, that might give them some pause.
 
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