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Thread: Schiff: Trump should probably be indicted when he leaves office

  1. #201
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    Re: Schiff: Trump should probably be indicted when he leaves office

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Don't kid yourself (as you appear to be doing_ If you "....acted in coordination with and at the direction of.....", you are involved, by definition, in a conspiracy and the parties involved co-conspirators... If you commit a crime at the direction of another, that other is culpable.

    Lieu: Trump is ‘essentially an unindicted co-conspirator’ in Cohen case | TheHill


    Did Trump Just Move a Step Closer to Unindicted Co-conspirator? - POLITICO Magazine

    From Politico article:

    The conclusion reached by Judge Pauley, federal prosecutors and U.S. Probation was based on a “preponderance of the evidence” standard, meaning that they concluded it is more likely than not that Trump directed Cohen to commit a crime. That is well below the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard in a criminal trial.


    ".....The conclusion reached by Judge Pauley, federal prosecutors and U.S. Probation was based on a “preponderance of the evidence” standard, meaning that they concluded it is more likely than not that Trump directed Cohen to commit a crime. That is well below the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard in a criminal trial...."



    The word of Cohen has nothing to do with it. Do you not get that Cohen only provides the thread to pull the evidence together. Anything he says is independently verified.
    Former FEC Chairman ,nominated by Bill Clinton, Bradly Smith says it is NOT a In-Kind Contribution because Trump can say the payment was made to hide the affair from his wife and family and to protect the TRUMP brand. If the payment would have been made even if Trump wasn't in an election it isn't an In-Kind Contribution. Bradly Smith is currently a law professor that teaches FEC law. And remember Gary Hart he used donor money to pay off his mistress and he was ruled innocent because he was hiding his affair from his wife and family. So don't get your hopes up.
    Last edited by SLC; 03-16-19 at 12:28 AM.
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    Re: Schiff: Trump should probably be indicted when he leaves office

    Quote Originally Posted by SLC View Post
    Former FEC Chairman ,nominated by Bill Clinton, Bradly Smith says it is NOT a In-Kind Contribution because Trump can say the payment was made to hide the affair from his wife and family and to protect the TRUMP brand. If the payment would have been made even if Trump wasn't in an election it isn't an In-Kind Contribution. Bradly Smith is currently a law professor that teaches FEC law. And remember Gary Hart he used donor money to pay off his mistress and he was ruled innocent because he was hiding his affair from his wife and family. So don't get your hopes up.
    Considering he did not make the payments for years until just before the election, and everyone involved has said it was about the election, that argument isn't going to fly...

  3. #203
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    Re: Schiff: Trump should probably be indicted when he leaves office

    Quote Originally Posted by GDViking View Post
    Considering he did not make the payments for years until just before the election, and everyone involved has said it was about the election, that argument isn't going to fly...
    It wasn't a personal issue until beforethe election; Cohen himself had said part of his motivation was to help Trump avoid embarrassment with his wife.

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    Re: Schiff: Trump should probably be indicted when he leaves office

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius68 View Post
    Here's a pretty good article regarding the lack of clairvoyance in the dossier:

    Steele Dossier: ‘Corroborated’ Claims Were Old News | National Review
    Just so you know, you're posting a conservative editorial to dispute the facts. But the good news is that NR is abandoning the original conservative narrative "false inaccurate dossier” and going with “old news" when means they concede its accuracy. This disputes the “old news” narrative from your "editorial" "

    Parts of the dossier have proved prescient. Its main assertion — that the Russian government was working to get Mr. Trump elected — was hardly an established fact when it was first laid out by Mr. Steele in June 2016. But it has since been backed up by the United States’ own intelligence agencies — and Mr. Mueller’s investigation.

    Tech Firm in Steele Dossier May Have Been Used by Russian Spies - The New York Times

    And don’t forget, Trump still doesn’t believe Russia was behind the hacks. So NR also admits that trump is either very dumb or dishonest.

    The president has long expressed doubt that Russia was behind the 2016 attacks, and the 11-count indictment illustrates even more the distance between his skepticism and the nearly unanimous views of the intelligence and law enforcement agencies he leads.
    12 Russian Agents Indicted in Mueller Investigation - The New York Times

    and to be quite specific, it wasn’t “old news” where the attacks came from.

    Web infrastructure owned by a Russian internet entrepreneur named in the Christopher Steele dossier may have been used to support the hack on the Democratic National Committee during the 2016 election, a private intelligence report newly unsealed in federal court alleges.


    Report: Tech Company In Steele Dossier May Have Been Used To Support DNC Hack

    That’s why your “editorial” has to be vague and non specific about their claims. So I’m satisfied with a respected British spy whose work was vindicated by US intelligence agencies. Are you satisfied with NR’s “nuh uh”?
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    Re: Schiff: Trump should probably be indicted when he leaves office

    Quote Originally Posted by GDViking View Post
    Considering he did not make the payments for years until just before the election, and everyone involved has said it was about the election, that argument isn't going to fly...
    Let's see...A former FEC chairman says 'no crime'....But, YOU decide that it IS a crime anyway...Earlier you said to me that you only wanted to jail "the criminals", but seems that YOU are deciding WHO the "criminals" are, very subjectively....the problem with discourse today is the fact that there is no intellectual honesty anymore...To defend that President Obama's FEC violations warranted only a fine, and a 'no big deal' while Trump's constitute a "crime" and jail time, is the definition of double standard.
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    Re: Schiff: Trump should probably be indicted when he leaves office

    Quote Originally Posted by GDViking View Post
    Considering he did not make the payments for years until just before the election, and everyone involved has said it was about the election, that argument isn't going to fly...
    When doesn't matter ... and who are the "everybody" who you say were involved?

    IF EVERYTHING IS IMPORTANT THEN NOTHING IS

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    Re: Schiff: Trump should probably be indicted when he leaves office

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    GREAT! Do I look fat in these pants?
    Maybe just from the shoulders up...
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Schiff: Trump should probably be indicted when he leaves office

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius68 View Post
    Oh look, an “ editorial” to address the “quid pro quo” part of the dossier. I did notice your NR “editorial” didn’t address that. So in your latest “editorial” we learn that the platform was actually “strengthened”. Travel back in time with me to 2016. Attacking President Obama’s “weak” response of sanctions was an official conservative narrative. You guys wanted to send troops and or weapons. So a delegate wants to put “sending lethal defensive weapons” in the platform. As your “editorial” admits, a trump aide intervened. From your “editorial”

    “ a Trump national security aide named J.D. Gordon, who was in the room with the platform committee, wanted to edit it. According to Denman, Gordon got on the phone, saying he was calling "New York" to discuss possible changes.”...….

    “At the behest of the Trump campaign, the platform committee took out the throat-clearing introduction and changed Denman's reference from "lethal defensive weapons" for Ukraine to a pledge to provide "appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine." They left intact Denman's language on NATO, and on continued and possibly tougher sanctions on Russia.


    The funny thing is that Gordon denies speaking with trump.

    She followed up by asking with whom Gordon had spoken. And, more than once, Gordon replied he had discussed the issue with Trump.

    No he didn't, Gordon said on Monday.
    "I dispute her recollection of events," he said in messages with NPR. He also denied telling Denman in Cleveland that he had discussed the Ukraine language with Trump.
    "Trump wasn't involved in the GOP Platform details. That was my job," Gordon said by text message. "Individual delegates didn't have the authority to force their positions on the campaign."
    "I am not getting into a 'he said, she said' with the media about Diana Denman or anyone else," Gordon added.


    2016 RNC Delegate: Trump Directed Change To Party Platform On Ukraine Support : NPR

    Mmmmm, he said she said. Somebody is lying and your "editorial" says Gordon is lying. Anyhoo, her amendment called for increased sanctions if warranted. Again, from your link

    The final, Trump-approved passage read: "We support maintaining and, if warranted, increasing sanctions, together with our allies, against Russia unless and until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored. We also support providing appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine and greater coordination with NATO defense planning." That was the amendment the committee approved.

    So we get “Trump-approved passage” , “maintaining and, if warranted, increasing sanctions” and “greater coordination with NATO defense planning”. Literally the first thing trump tried to do was remove the sanctions on Russia. I’m unaware of any change from Russia regarding Ukraine’s “sovereignty and territorial integrity”. I am aware of trump attacking nato. And don’t forget trump called America “murderers” to defend Putin. Looks like “quid pro quo” to me
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  9. #209
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    Re: Schiff: Trump should probably be indicted when he leaves office

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern View Post
    Oh look, an “ editorial” to address the “quid pro quo” part of the dossier. I did notice your NR “editorial” didn’t address that. So in your latest “editorial” we learn that the platform was actually “strengthened”. Travel back in time with me to 2016. Attacking President Obama’s “weak” response of sanctions was an official conservative narrative. You guys wanted to send troops and or weapons. So a delegate wants to put “sending lethal defensive weapons” in the platform. As your “editorial” admits, a trump aide intervened. From your “editorial”

    “ a Trump national security aide named J.D. Gordon, who was in the room with the platform committee, wanted to edit it. According to Denman, Gordon got on the phone, saying he was calling "New York" to discuss possible changes.”...….

    “At the behest of the Trump campaign, the platform committee took out the throat-clearing introduction and changed Denman's reference from "lethal defensive weapons" for Ukraine to a pledge to provide "appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine." They left intact Denman's language on NATO, and on continued and possibly tougher sanctions on Russia.


    The funny thing is that Gordon denies speaking with trump.

    She followed up by asking with whom Gordon had spoken. And, more than once, Gordon replied he had discussed the issue with Trump.

    No he didn't, Gordon said on Monday.
    "I dispute her recollection of events," he said in messages with NPR. He also denied telling Denman in Cleveland that he had discussed the Ukraine language with Trump.
    "Trump wasn't involved in the GOP Platform details. That was my job," Gordon said by text message. "Individual delegates didn't have the authority to force their positions on the campaign."
    "I am not getting into a 'he said, she said' with the media about Diana Denman or anyone else," Gordon added.


    2016 RNC Delegate: Trump Directed Change To Party Platform On Ukraine Support : NPR

    Mmmmm, he said she said. Somebody is lying and your "editorial" says Gordon is lying. Anyhoo, her amendment called for increased sanctions if warranted. Again, from your link

    The final, Trump-approved passage read: "We support maintaining and, if warranted, increasing sanctions, together with our allies, against Russia unless and until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored. We also support providing appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine and greater coordination with NATO defense planning." That was the amendment the committee approved.

    So we get “Trump-approved passage” , “maintaining and, if warranted, increasing sanctions” and “greater coordination with NATO defense planning”. Literally the first thing trump tried to do was remove the sanctions on Russia. I’m unaware of any change from Russia regarding Ukraine’s “sovereignty and territorial integrity”. I am aware of trump attacking nato. And don’t forget trump called America “murderers” to defend Putin. Looks like “quid pro quo” to me
    The NPR article doesn't refute York's article. Whether Gordon spoke to Trump isn't really germane (and Gordon said that a candidate would have no say on the platform).
    As York points out, the GOP platform was stronger than the Democrats on Ukraine-- though perhaps not as strong as Denman would have preferred.
    As president, Trump sent military aid to Ukraine and imposed sanctions.

  10. #210
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    Re: Schiff: Trump should probably be indicted when he leaves office

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern View Post
    Just so you know, you're posting a conservative editorial to dispute the facts. But the good news is that NR is abandoning the original conservative narrative "false inaccurate dossier” and going with “old news" when means they concede its accuracy. This disputes the “old news” narrative from your "editorial" "

    Parts of the dossier have proved prescient. Its main assertion — that the Russian government was working to get Mr. Trump elected — was hardly an established fact when it was first laid out by Mr. Steele in June 2016. But it has since been backed up by the United States’ own intelligence agencies — and Mr. Mueller’s investigation.

    Tech Firm in Steele Dossier May Have Been Used by Russian Spies - The New York Times

    And don’t forget, Trump still doesn’t believe Russia was behind the hacks. So NR also admits that trump is either very dumb or dishonest.

    The president has long expressed doubt that Russia was behind the 2016 attacks, and the 11-count indictment illustrates even more the distance between his skepticism and the nearly unanimous views of the intelligence and law enforcement agencies he leads.
    12 Russian Agents Indicted in Mueller Investigation - The New York Times

    and to be quite specific, it wasn’t “old news” where the attacks came from.

    Web infrastructure owned by a Russian internet entrepreneur named in the Christopher Steele dossier may have been used to support the hack on the Democratic National Committee during the 2016 election, a private intelligence report newly unsealed in federal court alleges.


    Report: Tech Company In Steele Dossier May Have Been Used To Support DNC Hack

    That’s why your “editorial” has to be vague and non specific about their claims. So I’m satisfied with a respected British spy whose work was vindicated by US intelligence agencies. Are you satisfied with NR’s “nuh uh”?
    The point of the article was that the dossier reported what others were publically saying. Where it was original it has never been verified.

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