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Thread: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    The purpose of college is higher learning. Using football as an example, I love college athletics...but these have nothing to do with academic education, which is the purpose. Yes, they produce significant revenue, but I don't think that students should be accepted into a school unless they have academic merit, meaning that they are able to do the work. Many are not, even though at large schools, they're provided with literally around-the-clock free tutoring. I don't wish to get into the weeds about how student-athletes are exploited and should be paid or any of that but do think that those who aren't academically able should go pro if they have the talent and stop wasting their time and their professors' too.
    OK, but you're using "merit" in a different reality than our own. In this one, schools recruit good athletes, and 100s of thousands of them (NCAA says there are 460,000 student athletes) are NOT in the power schools in the two big sports - football and basketball - without functioning minor leagues, and that serve as minor leagues for the pros. It's only there where schools admit kids who cannot do the work. For all the rest of the sports and the non-power conferences, the athletes are able to handle the academics, they just get preferences based on athletic merit.

    FWIW, outside FB and BB, the few student athletes I taught were actually better than average students, two out of maybe 6 or 7 were outstanding. Some of it perhaps was the coaches required instructors (at this school anyway) to report absences and missed assignments and they didn't do that. The other was the kids seemed well organized, better than most, which perhaps isn't surprising since the ones succeeding in college had been juggling long hours participating in athletics in and out of 'season' and academics through HS and then college. I haven't done formal polling of other professors and instructors, but the only problems I ever heard were in the big two - football and men's basketball.

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, but you're using "merit" in a different reality than our own. In this one, schools recruit good athletes, and 100s of thousands of them (NCAA says there are 460,000 student athletes) are NOT in the power schools in the two big sports - football and basketball - without functioning minor leagues, and that serve as minor leagues for the pros. It's only there where schools admit kids who cannot do the work. For all the rest of the sports and the non-power conferences, the athletes are able to handle the academics, they just get preferences based on athletic merit.

    FWIW, outside FB and BB, the few student athletes I taught were actually better than average students, two out of maybe 6 or 7 were outstanding. Some of it perhaps was the coaches required instructors (at this school anyway) to report absences and missed assignments and they didn't do that. The other was the kids seemed well organized, better than most, which perhaps isn't surprising since the ones succeeding in college had been juggling long hours participating in athletics in and out of 'season' and academics through HS and then college. I haven't done formal polling of other professors and instructors, but the only problems I ever heard were in the big two - football and men's basketball.
    There are rarely problems with female athletes academically either.

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    ... but in this case the "rule of law" has been pissed on for as long as there has been an USA...so the practice has been accepted by society.
    Oh so true. There is outright adulation for all the genocidal/war criminal/terrorist presidents.

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by ralphcdp View Post
    Oh so true. There is outright adulation for all the genocidal/war criminal/terrorist presidents.
    You keep saying that ...

    So, how are these supposed "genocidal/war criminal/terrorist presidents"?
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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, but you're using "merit" in a different reality than our own. In this one, schools recruit good athletes, and 100s of thousands of them (NCAA says there are 460,000 student athletes) are NOT in the power schools in the two big sports - football and basketball - without functioning minor leagues, and that serve as minor leagues for the pros. It's only there where schools admit kids who cannot do the work. For all the rest of the sports and the non-power conferences, the athletes are able to handle the academics, they just get preferences based on athletic merit.

    FWIW, outside FB and BB, the few student athletes I taught were actually better than average students, two out of maybe 6 or 7 were outstanding. Some of it perhaps was the coaches required instructors (at this school anyway) to report absences and missed assignments and they didn't do that. The other was the kids seemed well organized, better than most, which perhaps isn't surprising since the ones succeeding in college had been juggling long hours participating in athletics in and out of 'season' and academics through HS and then college. I haven't done formal polling of other professors and instructors, but the only problems I ever heard were in the big two - football and men's basketball.
    Red:
    Well, I haven't much to add in this regard. Football and basketball players didn't come near my classes, which were "weeders" for econ majors. I taught a handful of students who participated in individual sports -- gymnastics, swimming, golf and tennis -- and their performance was adequate (B- to B+).

    I think that's because econ has a reputation of being hard. I understand that to a point because until one disabuses oneself of one's preconceived notions of what one may think econ theory says and simply takes it for what it in fact does say, it's likely hard. For instance, countless were the students who construed "demand" as things people want rather than as things people actually buy, not realizing that purchasing implies wanting or that economics doesn't care what one wants because is merely a thought and that can't be measured. I don't know how college age folks finish high school without knowing that, but I know they sure do show up in econ classes not already understanding it.

    I suspect you can relate to that. Accounting is much the same. I cannot tell you how many folks just can't accept for what it the statement "debit means 'on the left.'" Folks, for some reason, want it to mean more than that, and so they "force" it to do do in their minds, and in doing so goof somewhere.

    Athletes, due the heavy demands on their time, may have a tougher time with course that have a prerequisite on one's arrive to the class as a clear thinking sort of person. Exhaustion makes it harder to read/listen carefully.
    Those who jettison the epistemological standards of science are no longer in a position to use their intellectual product to make any claims about what is true of the world or to dispute the others’ claims about what is true. - Tooby & Cosmides
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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    ...but in this case the "rule of law" has been pissed on for as long as there has been an USA...so the practice has been accepted by society.

    Quote Originally Posted by ralphcdp View Post
    Oh so true. There is outright adulation for all the genocidal/war criminal/terrorist presidents.
    Red:
    You don't supposed people's predilection for making inflammatory remarks has something to with it, do you?
    Those who jettison the epistemological standards of science are no longer in a position to use their intellectual product to make any claims about what is true of the world or to dispute the others’ claims about what is true. - Tooby & Cosmides
    The lion does not turn around when a small dog barks. -- African Proverb

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    "It" didn't work anything like this for any of them. But if you're going to make a dumb comparison, don't forget Trump, Jared, and Ivanka.

    FWIW, the indictment is pretty fascinating reading. I'm pretty shocked at how open the fraud was, and that it involved head coaches at some pretty elite schools. Seems likely a few people in the upper reaches of the athletic departments would have to also be involved as well.

    https://www.justice.gov/file/1142881/download
    Red:
    Some of the had to have been involved.

    Universities are large and complex organizations where the "left hand" often enough has no idea what the "right hand" is doing. (A quick look at UCLA's org chart alludes to how siloed schools are.) Thus I understand how someone in Admissions, the Dean of Students or another purely administrative office may not notice the irregularities or patterns pertaining to student athletes enrolling and then dropping out of the sports program. Such students are likely even less likely to show up "on the radar" if they don't receive scholarships or other financial aid.
    I suspect the same dollar-driven focus applies to some extent to athletics directors. A water polo player, for instance, who leaves the team, and who wasn't by the school being funded, likely, if at all, registers more than a "meh, she quit the team." At large schools like USC and UCLA, such students are likely nothing more than a statistic on a report.

    That said, I'd think insofar as the scheme had been running for almost a decade, someone "higher up" in the school athletics department must have noticed a pattern....or been part of the pattern, so to speak.
    Those who jettison the epistemological standards of science are no longer in a position to use their intellectual product to make any claims about what is true of the world or to dispute the others’ claims about what is true. - Tooby & Cosmides
    The lion does not turn around when a small dog barks. -- African Proverb

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    One of the Desperate Housewives cast member has now weight in about the "Varsity Blues" happenings.

    We don't know the facts, but we can be extremely disturbed by the entitlement, the power and money that can take away from less privileged and that, to me, is disgraceful. I think there are ways to remedy a system that isn't working, and I think it has been broken for a long time. I don't want to get into how to fix it, but it's troublesome. It's troublesome because it can change the life path of a child that is deserving.
    -- Nicollette Sheridan

    I suppose we'll soon hear from Angela Bassett, who is among the talent in the upcoming film, Otherhood.

    Of Sheridan's remarks:
    • What "we" don't know the facts? The only we who don't know the facts is the "we" who have not read the complaint and indictment documents.

      I mean, really. What does she think? The DoJ and FBI are going to say all that stuff -- particularly quoted/transcribed phone conversations, captured emails and hard copy documents -- and then not have the actual recorded conversations, documents, etc?
    • I'm disturbed by the way in which folks used their extant entitlement than I'm by the fact that they feel entitled.
    • One way to fix it is to ensure that



    Some folks may find "You’re not going to get accepted into a top university on merit alone" interesting. Along with original prose, it references a Harvard Dean of Admissions' response to the following compound question:

    Let me assume that 80 to 90 percent of the students who apply to Harvard are qualified and could reasonably be expected to do well there. They have good GPA scores and SATs.

    • How does Harvard decide whom to admit?
    • Are there objective criteria? If so can you describe them?
    • Do you have requirements internally about the number of students you admit who want to major in a given subject area?

    As the parent of three children my observation is that the process, as viewed by a student, is more a crapshoot than a rational, predictable process.
    Those who jettison the epistemological standards of science are no longer in a position to use their intellectual product to make any claims about what is true of the world or to dispute the others’ claims about what is true. - Tooby & Cosmides
    The lion does not turn around when a small dog barks. -- African Proverb

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