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Thread: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

  1. #381
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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Of course, because Trump might share the idea that his kids are dullards who cannot get by on merit and so it's necessary to bribe, cheat, lie to help them be successful. What are laws when your kid wants to get in a certain school - **** the law. What matters is who has the money to buy an admission! It's a nation of men, not of laws. Merit is for suckers, losers!

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    iLOL No.
    And I fully support academic merit being the only measure used. But we do not have that and many are not able to benefit because of that.
    Red:
    I'll take your word, but I suspect many people are not of the mind that academic merit be the "only measure used" to determine who receives admission to selective (highly selective) universities/colleges.

    For my own part, I could, in principle, forbear academic merit being the sole measure used in state owned and operated institutions. Although that sounds fair, equitable, etc., as a practical matter, however, it isn't, and it isn't for high school students of multiple stripes.
    • Seven-point grading scale --> Even though one can convert between 10-point and 7-point grading scales, that conversion doesn't account for variability in the rigor of the courses themselves; moreover, there's just no way, short of one-on-one direct comparison across a broad spectrum of subjects, which among any given pair of seemingly comparable students is the more academically accomplished.
    • Schism between qualitative and quantitative accomplishment --> Like other alums of my alma mater, I occasionally interview applicants. All of them have very fine objective high school credentials, but chatting with them -- about a range of topics, including themselves and their aspirations, their reflections on and assessment of their development to date, current events, various abstract and applied academic concepts regarding science, math, writings and events , etc. -- reveals a host of differences. Yes, kids with materially higher GPAs are, in general, more intellectually accomplished and adroit than kids with lower ones, but not always. Too, kids with "close" GPAs have exhibited notable differences in the aforementioned dimensions, thus in attitude and personality.
    • Educational scope --> Schools offer multiple modes of education, scholastic and extracurricular. Students' develop acumen via participation in myriad extracurricular activities -- sports teams, social clubs, service organizations, entertainment groups, etc., and much of that learning depends not on academic ability. Schools thus craft student bodies to abet providing, as befits the administration's vision for the school, fertile settings for extra-academic and scholastic inspiration, exploration and learning.

      The best schools aim to establish fulsome, fecund experiential variety because, particularly insofar as top schools know well that they're grooming the future's government, industry, and cultural leaders, they'd be derelict to forswear heeding the maxim "don't defer until tomorrow that which one can do today." As the country and world's future helmsmen, those students are better served being as collegians exposed to and prepared, in a somewhat bridled setting, to collaborate with diverse constituencies and comrades, for upon exiting those hallowed halls, it won't get easier to do so.

      Quite simply, schools cannot provide the breadth of experience if they structure their student bodies solely by admitting students based solely on measures of academic merit.
    • School identity --> Imagine Liberty University having to admit 2,000 atheists because the 2,000 most academically accomplished applicants simply are. (I don't know the actual size of each grade cohort, but the point of my citing a number is to imply "a material quantity.") Imagine MIT having a material share of its classes comprised of students who ascribe to Flat-Earthism because (however improbably) the most academically meritorious students just do. Neither school could be the school it is and that its trustees intend it to be.

    Those are just a few examples of how the "academic merit only" notion, once applied, is absurd. Sure, it sounds noble enough, but that's it; it just sounds good.
    Last edited by Xelor; 03-15-19 at 10:33 PM.

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Xelor View Post
    Red:
    I'll take your word, but I suspect many people are not of the mind that academic merit be the "only measure used" to determine who receives admission to selective (highly selective) universities/colleges.

    For my own part, I could, in principle, forbear academic merit being the sole measure used in state owned and operated institutions. Although that sounds fair, equitable, etc., as a practical matter, however, it isn't, and it isn't for high school students of multiple stripes.
    • Seven-point grading scale --> Even though one can convert between 10-point and 7-point grading scales, that conversion doesn't account for variability in the rigor of the courses themselves; moreover, there's just no way, short of one-on-one direct comparison across a broad spectrum of subjects, which among any given pair of seemingly comparable students is the more academically accomplished.
    • Schism between qualitative and quantitative accomplishment --> Like other alums of my alma mater, I occasionally interview applicants. All of them have very fine objective high school credentials, but chatting with them -- about a range of topics, including themselves and their aspirations, their reflections on and assessment of their development to date, current events, various abstract and applied academic concepts regarding science, math, writings and events , etc. -- reveals a host of differences. Yes, kids with materially higher GPAs are, in general, more intellectually accomplished and adroit than kids with lower ones, but not always. Too, kids with "close" GPAs have exhibited notable differences in the aforementioned dimensions, thus in attitude and personality.
    • Educational scope --> Schools offer multiple modes of education, scholastic and extracurricular. Students' develop acumen via participation in myriad extracurricular activities -- sports teams, social clubs, service organizations, entertainment groups, etc., and much of that learning depends not on academic ability. Schools thus craft student bodies to abet providing, as befits the administration's vision for the school, fertile settings for extra-academic and scholastic inspiration, exploration and learning.

      The best schools aim to provide fulsome, fecund experiential variety because, particularly insofar as top schools know well that they're grooming the future's government, industry, and cultural leaders, they'd be derelict to forswear heeding the maxim "don't defer until tomorrow that which one can do today." As the country and world's future helmsmen, those students are better served being as collegians exposed to and prepared, in a somewhat bridled setting, to collaborate with diverse constituencies and comrades, for upon exiting those hallowed halls, it won't get easier to do so.

      Quite simply, schools cannot provide the breadth of experience if they structure their student bodies solely by admitting students based solely on measures of academic merit.
    • School identity --> Imagine Liberty University having to admit 2,000 atheists because the 2,000 most academically accomplished applicants simply are. (I don't know the actual size of each grade cohort, but the point of my citing a number is to imply "a material quantity.") Imagine MIT having a material share of its classes comprised of students who ascribe to Flat-Earthism because (however improbably) the most academically meritorious students just do. Neither school could be the school it is and that its trustees intend it to be.

    Those are just a few examples of how the "academic merit only" notion, once applied, is absurd. Sure, it sounds noble enough, but that's it; it just sounds good.
    Possibly the best criteria would be a demonstrated capacity and an honest desire to learn in a particular setting and field.

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    ...And again you show you know not of what you speak even though I continually have pointed that out.

    The underlying activity was legal. What do you not understand about that? Do you really not understand the difference between legal and illegal? Do you not understand what the legal activity the press was speaking about? That is not about illegal drug distribution.

    That underlying legal activity (which was them looking out for their kids) is exactly why I hope the President pardons them for the mail fraud they were charged with.
    Red:


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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    Possibly the best criteria would be a demonstrated capacity and an honest desire to learn in a particular setting and field.
    I'm not sure there's much point in citing "best criteria." What merits a top school's offer of admission, just like what merits a top firm's offer of employment, is a function of a plurality of traits. The two you've cited matter, but (1) a reasonable case can be made for all top school applicants' fecundity in both dimensions, (2) college applicants routinely revise their disciplinary focus upon obtaining further exposure to a given field's subject matter and/or the exigencies of the process of obtaining a given degree concentration.

    For instance, I entered college thinking I was headed for a law degree. A history of law class I took, one delivered pedagogically as are law school classes, poignantly showed me that notwithstanding my interest in practicing law, I had no desire to do what one must, take law school classes and study the law as such courses are taught, to do so. Consequently, I wasn't going to be an attorney. My "honest desire" was undiminished, but I just wasn't, after that history class, going to again endure that approach to learning.

    Analogous epiphanies likely have come to many a student. A young man I mentor finished high school wanting to be an electrical engineer who designed and developed sound equipment. He took calculus and discovered he really hated it (I can't relate to that, but I don't need to). Well, that put the kibosh on any form of engineering he might have practiced, short of janitorial engineering, which doesn't require a degree to practice.

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by pamak View Post
    Exactly!


    Here we have a system where rich kids who DO have access to the best high schools and access to the best college preparation tutors (charging as much as $200 per hour) which have given them already a considerable advantage over other regular competitors, and they STILL need an ADDITIONAL advantage to enter a university. I cannot put this on the same level with the poor kid which uses sports to enter a university even though I have stated it clearly in this thread earlier that I am also against the US system of college sports which has nothing to do with academic at least merit!
    Red:
    Well, the kids involved in "Varsity Blues" (VB) likely could get into a university, but probably not the (highly) selective ones they (their parents) sought to enter.

    Frankly, I think the VB kids and their 'rents were more concerned with the cachet of the school than they were with whether the kids earned an education. In that regard, they treated selecting a college as one would choose a consumer good or service: whether one has the money is the sole determinant of whether one can buy it or not.


    Pink:
    That is a completely different matter, even without the corruption attendant to notions of iniquitously exploited financial privilege.


    Blue:
    I agree that it's not "on the same level," but....
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Fantastic! That will be great news to them and their lawyers. They can just refer to this thread and your excellent legal analysis (nothing) and the judge will throw out the charges and no need for Trump to pardon anyone for crimes they didn't commit and weren't (cannot be!) convicted of committing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    And again you show you have no clue as to what you speak.
    Why do you bother if you are not going to follow what was actually said?
    Red:
    Oh, I think Jasper has a clue, quite a few, so many, indeed, that the myopic "spin" you've been throwing falls flat.

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    No, it's not a merit based system. But that person was hoping for pardons for the parents who bribed and cheated their kids into schools, while simultaneously claiming to support a merit based system. Those positions are 180 from each other.

    Furthermore, at least athletics are merit based. The only problems are those sports that only the rich participate in and so effectively reserve a few dozen prime slots from the ranks of elite prep schools that offer those 'sports.'



    The article starts with a straw man. The claim isn't that "the rich get whatever they want" every time, in all cases, no matter the facts, but that the system is heavily rigged in favor of the rich, that rich kids start at 2nd or 3rd and the rest of the kids start at home plate. And then she proves the actual argument, which is nice I guess...

    From the article:



    It's a neat trick to conflate admissions based on athletic talent, which is merit based, to legacy admissions, which is NOT. I read that 14% of Harvard admissions are legacy based, worth about 160 points on the SAT. That would have been nice when I applied - from pretty good to the elite levels, Ivy League, scholarships! Too bad my dad went to a state school...
    Are you actually saying that athletic talent has anything to do with academic merit?

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Are you actually saying that athletic talent has anything to do with academic merit?
    No, I said, "Furthermore, at least athletics are merit based" and "admissions based on athletic talent, which is merit based."

    Schools recruit good athletes because they like to have winning teams. You know this so I'm unclear why you're confused. If they do that, and hand out scholarships or slots based on MERIT, where's the problem? It's COMPLETELY different in principle than moving Hunter's application to the top of the pile because Father and Grandfather also went to that school, which is NOT based on merit, but on who your father was/is.

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    No, I said, "Furthermore, at least athletics are merit based" and "admissions based on athletic talent, which is merit based."

    Schools recruit good athletes because they like to have winning teams. You know this so I'm unclear why you're confused. If they do that, and hand out scholarships or slots based on MERIT, where's the problem? It's COMPLETELY different in principle than moving Hunter's application to the top of the pile because Father and Grandfather also went to that school, which is NOT based on merit, but on who your father was/is.
    The purpose of college is higher learning. Using football as an example, I love college athletics...but these have nothing to do with academic education, which is the purpose. Yes, they produce significant revenue, but I don't think that students should be accepted into a school unless they have academic merit, meaning that they are able to do the work. Many are not, even though at large schools, they're provided with literally around-the-clock free tutoring. I don't wish to get into the weeds about how student-athletes are exploited and should be paid or any of that but do think that those who aren't academically able should go pro if they have the talent and stop wasting their time and their professors' too.

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    Re: Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Fine, then call them out.

    "Why does whoever "they" are (obviously rich people with 6 or 7 figures to waste to get their kid into the right school) implicate 'liberals' versus just the assholes who engaged in the act. I'm not a hypocrite because I didn't do it or approve of it. I imagine I'm in the 99% or so of liberals who also don't approve of bribery and fraud to get spoiled rich kids into the school of their choice."
    They have to be liberal, a Trump supporter would never do something like that...........right??
    Sarcasm is the body’s natural defense against stupidity

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