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Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

I think what's most important here is determining whether or not these people will spend more or less time in jail than Paul Manafort.
 
How is this any different than people paying Google to alter search engine results that are favorable?
 
Skeptic Bob said:
So let me get this straight, if a sexual assault occurs on campus the university is supposed to investigate the crime? And if cheating happens the FBI investigates?
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The FBI/DoJ didn't charge anyone with cheating on the SAT or cheating the college admissions process. The Feds variously charged folks with committing and/or conspiring to commit mail/wire fraud, racketeering, money laundering, and defrauding the US.

Some parties have been charged with something called "honest services fraud," which, in the public sphere, is cheating of the sort involved. The thing is that in most of these admissions cases, the schools involved and the college board are private organizations, which makes dubitable the probability of obtaining an "honest services" conviction. As the ABA notes, "what conduct constitutes a denial of honest services in the private sector remains astonishingly unclear." Few folks have trouble seeing the unethicality of much private sector "shenanigans;" however, what's unethical isn't necessarily illegal.

That is what I earlier alluded to in remarking about what I'd prosecute in this matter. I think for most of the parents and kids involved, the persons who benefitted from the payments/scheme, it may not be possible or feasible to penalize them beyond consigning them to ignominy. Members of society can exact a host of punishments -- cancel their club memberships and "black ball" them re: subsequent applications, prohibit them from entry even with their friends who still belong, withhold invitations to certain events, prohibit them from receiving professional recognition, etc. -- and those things strike me as more punitive than would be sending them to jail.

That may not seem like much of a punishment to some folks, but I can assure you that for folks who belong to and dwell in a certain segment of society, it's very much one for folks who've spent their lives apart from the hoi polloi (realizing that term pertains as much to character as it does with wealth) and now they have no choice but to socialize only with them, it'd be quite painful.
 
American said:
I thought liberals were all about fairness. I guess it only applies unless cheating benefits them.
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Why are you bringing up liberals and making this partisan? Seen any liberals defend this crap on this thread? If so take it up with them. I don't defend it, although I agree with others that it's been going in in some form for a long time. My favorite is "legacy" admissions, which is common in the Ivy Leagues and is just affirmative action for rich white people. I've said many times I don't know why if we care about "affirmative action" for poor people and/or minorities that we don't address affirmative action for rich people, which is so ingrained we don't even recognize it for what it IS.

Jared Kushner had his application helped a bit I imagine with a $2.5 million gift from daddy to Harvard the year before little Jared applied.

The Story Behind Jared Kushner’s Curious Acceptance Into Harvard — ProPublica

I obviously cannot prove it over the internet but an acquaintance of mine made a 7 figure donation to get his daughter into his alma mater. Worked, too, even though her record was unremarkable.

But, yeah, rigging test scores or fraudulently claiming athlete status is wrong and people should pay a price for their fraud. The guy running it should go to jail. Not sure what should happen to the parents - something that hurts, if not jail.
 
Bucky said:
I think the question we have to ask is if cheating is more prevalent now than it was 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago? I am not sure we know the answer.
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Well, I agree that we don't know and we likely won't have any way to find out, other than, rarely, for specific individuals.
 
Xelor said:
Red:
Well, I can now. LOL Prior to today's indictments and arrests, the notion wouldn't have crossed my mind.


Fortunately, my kids worked hard to earn their grades and admission to the schools they attend(-ed). It's a good thing they did because even though we're comfortable enough that money for school/college isn't an issue, they knew damn well I wasn't about donate their way into the school of their choice. If their being "legacies" and having good grades and notable extracurriculars wasn't good enough to earn them admission to XYZ, they just weren't going to matriculate there, and that was that. Their performance was strong enough that I knew they'd gain admission to some good school and I didn't, frankly, care what good school they attended. (I didn't really want them going to school in "tornado alley" or on the West Coast, but otherwise, I was indifferent about where they went.)

Why any parent who's of a mind to spend the kind of money some of those parents did would do so in a criminal manner rather than just using the "old school" method of donating enough directly to the school, and, in turn, trusting that the school would repay the favor, is beyond me. I mean, really. What does that take? One or two visits to the appropriate office (usually the president's office or a unit of it as fundraising is the main role of college/university presidents) to discuss, in person, making a contribution. One can be sure that when one's kid's application arrives, someone will bother to check to see whether the kid's parents (or someone) has made a material donation, and make no mistake, a quarter million dollars is material. (One's kid would have to be grossly unqualified to attend the school for it to take more than that.)
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Like you until today, I wouldn't have thought parents would do such things or coaches and administrative examiners would be bought off with bribes. What a terrible example for a parent, or anyone in authority at an elite institution to portray to a child. Instead of focusing on encouraging a child to strive to be all he/she can which can mean not getting accepted to an elite school, their parents buy their way and those in authority are easily bribed to make it happen. It's a sad state of affairs.
 
JasperL said:
Why are you bringing up liberals and making this partisan? Seen any liberals defend this crap on this thread? If so take it up with them. I don't defend it, although I agree with others that it's been going in in some form for a long time. My favorite is "legacy" admissions, which is common in the Ivy Leagues and is just affirmative action for rich white people. I've said many times I don't know why if we care about "affirmative action" for poor people and/or minorities that we don't address affirmative action for rich people, which is so ingrained we don't even recognize it for what it IS.

Jared Kushner had his application helped a bit I imagine with a $2.5 million gift from daddy to Harvard the year before little Jared applied.

The Story Behind Jared Kushner’s Curious Acceptance Into Harvard — ProPublica

I obviously cannot prove it over the internet but an acquaintance of mine made a 7 figure donation to get his daughter into his alma mater. Worked, too, even though her record was unremarkable.

But, yeah, rigging test scores or fraudulently claiming athlete status is wrong and people should pay a price for their fraud. The guy running it should go to jail. Not sure what should happen to the parents - something that hurts, if not jail.
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This was done through a scam, and not out in the open like other gifts. It shows they are hypocrites.
 
trouble13 said:
Are you aware that these bribes were done under the guise of charitable donations and used to defraud the us gov as well as cheating many qualified applicants out of the education that they were qualified to receive and had their place sold out from under them?
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Red:
Yes. That's reflected in the the defraud the US charges against some of the defendants.
 
trouble13 said:
Your doing a lot of dancing to skirt the issue.
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WTH are you talking about. I am the one who introduced the "issue" by creating this thread and I've been quite clear about my position on the matter.
 
American said:
This was done through a scam, and not out in the open like other gifts. It shows they are hypocrites.
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Who is "they?"

Why does whoever "they" are (obviously rich people with 6 or 7 figures to waste to get their kid into the right school) implicate 'liberals' versus just the assholes who engaged in the act. I'm not a hypocrite because I didn't do it or approve of it. I imagine I'm in the 99% or so of liberals who also don't approve of bribery and fraud to get spoiled rich kids into the school of their choice.
 
JasperL said:
Who is "they?"

Why does whoever "they" are (obviously rich people with 6 or 7 figures to waste to get their kid into the right school) implicate 'liberals' versus just the assholes who engaged in the act. I'm not a hypocrite because I didn't do it or approve of it. I imagine I'm in the 99% or so of liberals who also don't approve of bribery and fraud to get spoiled rich kids into the school of their choice.
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The two named stars for one.
 
PeteEU said:
Good question.

I believe in the rule of law, but in this case the "rule of law" has been pissed on for as long as there has been an USA...so the practice has been accepted by society.

So it is a bit pathetic going after these people for something large parts of the 1% have been doing forever.

Now that they are doing it..a large fine based on income and community service. No reason to clog up American prisons with more people who should not be there along side rapists and similar.

But again it rubs one the wrong way when these people pay the so called price and others who clearly did the same thing..go free. I mean many of them have buildings named after them on campus and you ain't gonna tell me that was done out of the kindness of their heart....

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk
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I agree in part but the clear problem is not just giving money for a building but for giving money and falsifying test scores or athletic participation. Fabricating the documents that are required and then bribing individuals to aid in the process.
 
American said:
The two named stars for one.
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Fine, then call them out.

"Why does whoever "they" are (obviously rich people with 6 or 7 figures to waste to get their kid into the right school) implicate 'liberals' versus just the assholes who engaged in the act. I'm not a hypocrite because I didn't do it or approve of it. I imagine I'm in the 99% or so of liberals who also don't approve of bribery and fraud to get spoiled rich kids into the school of their choice."
 
JasperL said:
Why are you bringing up liberals and making this partisan? Seen any liberals defend this crap on this thread? If so take it up with them. I don't defend it, although I agree with others that it's been going in in some form for a long time. My favorite is "legacy" admissions, which is common in the Ivy Leagues and is just affirmative action for rich white people. I've said many times I don't know why if we care about "affirmative action" for poor people and/or minorities that we don't address affirmative action for rich people, which is so ingrained we don't even recognize it for what it IS.

Jared Kushner had his application helped a bit I imagine with a $2.5 million gift from daddy to Harvard the year before little Jared applied.

The Story Behind Jared Kushner’s Curious Acceptance Into Harvard — ProPublica

I obviously cannot prove it over the internet but an acquaintance of mine made a 7 figure donation to get his daughter into his alma mater. Worked, too, even though her record was unremarkable.

But, yeah, rigging test scores or fraudulently claiming athlete status is wrong and people should pay a price for their fraud. The guy running it should go to jail. Not sure what should happen to the parents - something that hurts, if not jail.
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Red:
Therein lies the problem. "Back in the day," when the circle of folks who attended schools like Yale and other first tier schools was limited and "everyone" knew "everyone," the punishment could and would have been handled by socially ostracizing the offenders. These days, I don't know that probity is abundant enough in the upper reaches of society for that same mulct to be applied, let alone consistently so.

"Back in the day," one's name would be removed from the "Green Book" and that was that. From then on, it didn't much matter where one went, upon presenting oneself, it was but a minute before people knew one was "NOKD." Since about the '80s and '90s, however, social status and position has become "democratized" in manner of speaking. If one has enough money, one can have social status and travel in circles once reserved for a certain class of folks, a class that didn't absolutely have to do with wealth, but, to be sure, most folks of that ilk were comfortable.
 
American said:
This was done through a scam, and not out in the open like other gifts. It shows they are hypocrites.
JasperL said:
Who is "they?"

Why does whoever "they" are (obviously rich people with 6 or 7 figures to waste to get their kid into the right school) implicate 'liberals' versus just the assholes who engaged in the act. I'm not a hypocrite because I didn't do it or approve of it. I imagine I'm in the 99% or so of liberals who also don't approve of bribery and fraud to get spoiled rich kids into the school of their choice.
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Red:
The surreptitiousness of the scheme is what I find opprobrious. Mind you, I don't like that folks can donate a bundle and get their kid admitted, but I understand that a school isn't likely to snub someone who so spends their coin. Accordingly, I can acquiesce to the happenstance when it occurs. As you noted, at least such donors/parents (perhaps the students too) aren't trying to pretend their kids are "all that" and thus got admitted to "Posh U."

The other part that I find supremely reprehensible is that some of these people, knowing they were paying money to a fake charity, had the temerity to take a tax deduction for having done so.


Tan:
I'm not sure I can call most of the defendants hypocrites. I don't know what specific claims they've made that, by this behavior, they've contravened.


Blue:
This isn't about liberal "this" or conservative "that." This is, as you note, about wealthy folks simply being reprobates.

Wealth and notoriety simply are not proxies for good character (or intellect, for that matter). It's high time folks stopped thinking it is. Wealth indicates nothing other than that a person is relatively adept at making money somehow. That's it. Wealth doesn't even mean one has become so legally and/or ethically.
 
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Integrityrespec said:
I agree in part but the clear problem is not just giving money for a building but for giving money and falsifying test scores or athletic participation. Fabricating the documents that are required and then bribing individuals to aid in the process.
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Blue:
That kind of giving simply isn't a problem.

I don't care whether such donations get one's kid admission or doesn't. One cannot stop folks from donating to schools.

It takes no great genius to suss that if, say, a chair is named after one's roommate's mother, there was no way that student wasn't going to get admitted. That is what it is. Hopefully the kid's a decent person and one can get along with him/her. If such a student ends up a mediocre performer yet graduates, well, s/he'll have to find some way to "make it." Maybe the kid's family connections can abet that process; maybe they can't.

Either way, that's the kid's problem, not one's own. And it's not as though one can do anything about it either way. I mean, really. If "this" kid has great connections, what is one going to do about that? Nothing. And one surely doesn't think the kid's not going to avail him-/herself of them if/when needed.

Wealth provides certain advantages, and that's not ever going to change. So long as society aptly censures those exercising those advantages with criminal intent and effect, there's rarely much to do or say about it.


Red:
Yep. That's what's really ethically odious about the phenomena, but keep in mind that had much of what was done been done face-to-face, and the tax deductions not taken, unethical is all it'd have been. These people got caught because they went too far and were careless -- so far that what they did rose, by way of the means, not the ends, to the level of criminality -- not because they intentionally behaved unethically to begin with.
 
Xelor said:
From "Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal":

Dozens of people have been charged in a nationwide college admissions cheating and athletic recruitment scheme, federal officials announced Tuesday.

U.S. Attorney Andrew E. Lelling said 50 people have been charged in the alleged scheme, including 33 parents who “paid enormous sums” to guarantee their children’s admission into elite schools.

Prominent entertainers, business owners and college coaches are implicated in the scandal that involves boosting SAT scores and bribing college administrators, according to the criminal complaint.

Prosecutors say parents paid admissions consultant William Singer, of Newport Beach, Calif., $25 million from 2011 through Feb. 2019 to bribe coaches and administrators to label their children as recruited athletes to boost their chances of getting into schools.
​

According to information provided by FBI/DoJ officials in the press conference aired live on CNN, the parents, on average, paid between $250K and $400K for Singer's services. (I can't find the live coverage online, only an article.) The maximum sum spent was ~$6M.

The NY Post reports that one parent paid $500K to have "their two daughters designated as recruits to the USC crew team — despite the fact that they did not participate in crew — thereby facilitating their admission to USC." Other parents paid to have an associate of Singer's to obtain a given SAT exam score.



What I find most astounding about this cabal of college entrance corruption is that it appears a fair quantity of the parents who participated in it spent sums that, were they done the way wealthy folks have for ages ensured their academically mediocre kids admission to prestigious institutions -- by making a generous donation -- they'd have spent about the same sum and not be facing prosecution.

I mean, really. If one's got half a million or more to "blow," donate it to help fund a teaching award, endow a chair or help renovate a wing or hallway or something. The school will admit one's child in return.
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Just getting to the thread... anyone using this opportunity to derail/bitch about affirmative action yet?
 
poweRob said:
Just getting to the thread... anyone using this opportunity to derail/bitch about affirmative action yet?
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No. Please don't entreat for folks to do so. That's so very not what this thread is about.
 
What happened when those that received ‘athletic scholarships’ were found to have limited talent in the sport?
 
Why isn't the government publicly naming all of them?
 
JasperL said:
Fine, then call them out.

"Why does whoever "they" are (obviously rich people with 6 or 7 figures to waste to get their kid into the right school) implicate 'liberals' versus just the assholes who engaged in the act. I'm not a hypocrite because I didn't do it or approve of it. I imagine I'm in the 99% or so of liberals who also don't approve of bribery and fraud to get spoiled rich kids into the school of their choice."
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But do you approve of the myriad of other practices that get woefully unqualified minorities into schools ahead of kids that actually have the grades?

It's all wrong.

I like the system here at Texas and Texas A&M. If you finish in the top 7% of your high school at Texas, or the top 10% at A&M (soon to be top 8%), then you are automatically admitted. Or, if you score a 30 on your ACT, you can get in as well. If you don't meet those requirements, you can attend their satellite schools, and if you have a 3.5 GPA after your sophomore year (higher in some majors), you can transfer in.

That ensures diversity of opportunity for admittance, but it makes no promises once you get there. Both schools are tough, especially in the legitimate majors, and the freshmen classes get weeded out quickly. Still, both schools are over 55,000 students because graduates from both do very well post graduation. And it's a big state.

There are some legacy programs that can get kids in, but my daughter said they don't typically do well and are gone quickly. Not many take that route anymore.
 
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