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Actresses, prominent business owners charged in nationwide college admissions cheating scandal

"Turns Out There's a Proper Way to Buy Your Kid a College Slot" from the NY Times, which says that this case is not a defense of meritocracy but, rather, a defense of private property, i.e. the right of colleges to make the admissions decisions and then collect the revenues:

Federal prosecutors presented themselves as champions of meritocracy on Tuesday as they announced the indictments....

If the allegations are true, people should be held to account. But this case is not a defense of meritocracy in college admissions. What the government actually is defending is private property — the right of the colleges to make their own decisions about admissions, and collect the payments.

…Indeed, Mr. Lelling [United States attorney for the District of Massachusett] himself made clear at a news conference on Tuesday that the government is well aware wealthy people regularly donate money to colleges to secure the matriculation of their children — and the government is not attacking the conduct of that business as usual.

...The key distinction here is not just the amount of money, but the recipient. A donation is made to a college, while a bribe is paid to an employee who, in effect, is stealing an admissions slot, hawking it and pocketing the proceeds. (To comply with tax laws, donors also cannot engage in an explicit quid pro quo with a college. The well-rehearsed pas de deux of donations and admissions must be made to appear as a voluntary exchange of gifts, not a binding deal.)

Opinion | Turns Out There’s a Proper Way to Buy Your Kid a College Slot - The New York Times
This is the same NYT that supports title 9.

Why not het rid of the meritocracy facade snd just hold an auction where the seats are sold to the highest bidder

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
You have never seen Desperate Housewives?

Her husband William H. Macy has been in many more project than she has and is right in there with her on this.

No, I haven't.

I did recognize her husband, but I didn't know they were married until after looking into this issue.
 
I've seen that as well, and the emphasis is always on 'some'. However, I can only see that happening in the cases where testing scores were swapped out. Most of the students were admitted based on athletics. A student admitted to a school for their tennis or rowing skills, who never picked up a racket or oar, would have had to of known.

Most? How do know this? I'm aware only of the situations of four students myself. Can you link me up?
 
This is the same NYT that supports title 9.

Why not het rid of the meritocracy facade snd just hold an auction where the seats are sold to the highest bidder

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

"Supporting" Title IX isn't exactly a choice.
 
It would be hard to believe that a student that couldn't get in on their own could then magically become smart and a good student to get the grades to get the diploma honestly.

Of course they could. Students who don't get into a college based on their academic merits successfully complete a degree all the time. (And students that do get in based on academic credentials drop out all the time.) A good chunk of the students at any school get in based on their athletic ability. No one said the kids involved were stupid. The schools with competitive entry standards use those to help predict that the student will complete the degree, but it's not a guarantee either way.
 
You have never seen Desperate Housewives?

Her husband William H. Macy has been in many more project than she has and is right in there with her on this.

I had to look up who she was, although the name sounded familiar. I'm surprised he's not mentioned in every article. Even though he wasn't charged, he's more recognized.
 
To me this is outrageous, because it means some kid that didn't have a lot of money to pay bribes, and had the grades, didn't get in.....all the while Conservatives have been wailing about illegal immigrants when it is the rich stealing spots in the University.
 
In the early period of this thread's existence you folks broached the affirmative action aspect of college admissions and I asked you to refrain from going down that road. I requested that because I wanted the thread to address the actual substance of the "Varsity Blues" case itself and not a tangential aspect borne of its implications. I prefer the "early days" of a thread, as much as possible, be directly on topic, must as is the case with business meetings, symposia, lectures and other occasions where folks gather to discuss a specific matter.

Kindly, you each honored my request. Thanks.


The thread has now got some 250+ posts and I doubt there'll be much more, other than jurisprudential theory (or lack thereof) associated with the specific charges filed against the parents, Singer and the school employees who were part of the "Varsity Blues" conspiracy. I haven't seen folks show much interest in the legal theory and practice aspect of the discussion, so I think the direct ethical aspect of the matter's details have been covered as much as they can or are going to be.

Accordingly, if you still care to embark on the tangentially correlated line of affirmative action, I no longer have any objection to your doing so. If you don't, you don't, and too is fine. I'm not expressly entreating for you to do so. I'm simply stating that the key discussion topic has been adequately enough covered that "derailing" lines, as PowerRob called them, won't have an annoyingly derailing effect. The AA connection wasn't earlier lost on me; it just wasn't part of the central topic and it didn't appear to play an active role in the "Varsity Blues" actors' conduct or intents; thus I wasn't keen to have the thread "go there" before the core matter had been covered.

Cheers,
Xelor

I guessed it four posts before it happened. And by a very predictable source too. :lol:
 
eh. People look at the degree, and not how you got in. Keep in mind that most of these students got in based on their 'athletic' abilities, not competitive spirit. If they got the degree (assuming other cheating wasn't involved) they earned it, and it's just as valued as any other. Any good employer will look beyond just the degree, likely to work experience, to determine work ethic.

I think people are starting to take a different look at the degrees from prestige schools. They don't have the same luster that they once did. They're still respected, but most employers realize there is much more there than just a name at the top of the diploma. A quality state school can provide as good an education as an ivy league school, especially on undergraduate degrees.

And one other interesting aspect... while some of the schools mentioned are 'posh' schools -- many were just quality state programs.

Red:
Aside from Yale and Stanford, I didn't think any of them are posh schools. I do think of all them as good schools and I realize that they're all selective to greater and lesser extents, though that has mostly to do with how many kids apply relative to how many spots a given school has available.

And make no mistake, for a good number of selective (highly selective) schools, the sports teams, not the academics, play a huge role in boosting demand for admission to them. That doesn't mean the academics aren't first rate; it just means that kids and parents are fine with whatever academics the school offers, but they want to go for reasons other than scholarship. For instance:
  • Few folks want to go to Harvard because of the football team or the Harvard-Yale game. People go to both for the academics, the cachet, the network or because, like their fathers and grandfathers before them, they know they can get in so long as they apply and have a halfway decent high school transcript.
  • Lots of folks want to go to USC, as with Wake and Georgetown, because of the sports teams alone.
  • People apply to MIT and Caltech because of the academics. I don't think anyone, other than the athletes, goes for the sports teams.
  • U. Wisconsin Madison and U. Maryland College Park are a very fine schools, but nobody thinks of either a posh school. The sports teams may factor into some applicant's interest in attending.
  • Annapolis, West Point, UVA and UC Berkeley are public/state schools that also are posh and provide excellent educations. The sports teams may factor into some applicant's interest in attending.
All of the noted schools are yet selective or very selective.

And why wouldn't most kids/parents be fine with whatever academics most name-recognized colleges offer? It's not as though people are in any position to aptly assess the quality of a school's educational approach and teaching as they might be to judge the quality of a steak, house or car. And no matter what "big name" professors are at an institution, for the most part (of course, there are exceptions), those profs don't teach undergrads, and teaching undergrads isn't why they're on the faculty there.


Blue:
They do in some ways, and in others, they don't.
  • Branding status, facilities available to students, and network, they do.
  • Education delivery and outcomes, posh schools don't and cannot deliver anything any other good school can't deliver equally well. The "equation" is a little different when comparing large research institutions with elite institutions where professors (not adjuncts and teaching assistants) deliver the bulk of the instruction. Indeed, depending on the student's educational needs, a so-called mediocre school where the instructors don't have a strong research, thus publishing, requirement, may be a better place to go than a "big name" or elite institution where the profs have very little time to devote to students.
 
Funny that you only named Republicans. You don't think Democrats do this?

No I mention Presidents... that happen to be Republicans with very rich families. The last 3 Democratic presidents were not exactly from rich families.
 
I guessed it four posts before it happened. And by a very predictable source too. :lol:

LOL...I don't recognize the member who broached the AA topic, so I'll have to, for now, take your word re: the predictability of his/her comportment.
 
Higher education's being to "gain marketable skills"--i.e.teaching a trade--is a relatively new concept itself, and I have lamented this for many years because this focus is what has diminished respect for the humanities.

It's not what you paid for it, and it's not what you might think it's worth.
It's what other people will pay for it that determines the market value.

Clearly, when it comes an education and degree in the humanities, the market is not valuing it as much an education and degree in the STEM fields, but then, what value add does anything in the humanities really contribute? The contribution of an education and degree in STEM fields is pretty clearly a value add.

There's only so much demand for humanities professors, and once saturated, when the supply is greater than the demand, the perceived market values goes down, along with it the compensation.

:shrug:
Free market in action.

Besides, how many more radical leftist academic types indoctrinating their students in liberal / progressive ideology do we really need anyway?
 
No I mention Presidents... that happen to be Republicans with very rich families. The last 3 Democratic presidents were not exactly from rich families.

You said Trump paid to get his kids in schools and also paid for them to get good grades. Where is that information coming from? Especially the paying for grades. I'd like to know the source.
 
It's not what you paid for it, and it's not what you might think it's worth.
It's what other people will pay for it that determines the market value.

Clearly, when it comes an education and degree in the humanities, the market is not valuing it as much an education and degree in the STEM fields, but then, what value add does anything in the humanities really contribute? The contribution of an education and degree in STEM fields is pretty clearly a value add.

There's only so much demand for humanities professors, and once saturated, when the supply is greater than the demand, the perceived market values goes down, along with it the compensation.

:shrug:
Free market in action.

Besides, how many more radical leftist academic types indoctrinating their students in liberal / progressive ideology do we really need anyway?

When talking about higher education, the only market that matters to me is the marketplace of ideas. But you have to know that academics are going to have a different view than consumers are going to have, particularly in reference to the humanities.
 
To me this is outrageous, because it means some kid that didn't have a lot of money to pay bribes, and had the grades, didn't get in.....all the while Conservatives have been wailing about illegal immigrants when it is the rich stealing spots in the University.

Red:
Okay, so university admissions are a zero-sum thing, so that happenstance absolutely occurred. That said, because of the schools' selectivity, lots of kids who "had the grades" didn't get in; moreover, selective university admissions aren't just about the grades, particularly at top schools because, for the most part, everyone applying to those schools has the academic ability to pass the classes the school offers.
Admissions departments know damn well that passing the classes is all they can expect academically because not everyone can graduate with honors. Moreover, students don't want to go to a school where they can graduate with a 3.8 GPA and not graduate with honors because "tons" of folks have 3.9-4.0 GPAs. Similarly, it'd be very disheartening to be at a school where, because everyone is brilliant and hard-studying, the curve is so skewed that a 91 out of 100 on an assignment/exam is a "C." Students don't want that.

College administrators don't either because what that'd force them to do, to shift the curve back where it belongs, is deliver graduate level instruction to students who've purchased undergraduate schooling. That may seem like a good thing from a buyer's POV, but it's a horrible thing from the school's POV because eventually there simply isn't more content to deliver in a given discipline/course. What's a school to sell in its master's programs if the bar in the baccalaureate programs is so high it covers graduate-level content?[SUP]1[/SUP]

That's why PhD programs culminate in the candidates having to contribute to the body of knowledge in their discipline....In the specific part of a PhD candidate's discipline, there just isn't more of note to learn, other than that which hasn't ever before been discovered/learned. That's what a dissertation is all about -- discovering some small thing that nobody ever before found out, confirmed, etc. and "telling the world" that one has done so.


Note:
  1. Mind, for some master's degrees, there's already not much difference between its academic content and that of a corresponding undergrad degree. An MBA is one such degree. The theory and techniques are the same as for business bachelor's degrees; the applications of it differ at the graduate level. An MBA, though, is mostly a degree for folks who didn't earn undergraduate business degrees.
 
To me this is outrageous, because it means some kid that didn't have a lot of money to pay bribes, and had the grades, didn't get in.....all the while Conservatives have been wailing about illegal immigrants when it is the rich stealing spots in the University.

Cannot both groups steal spots?
 
I've spent quite a bit of time this afternoon reading the FBI affidavit (over 200 pages, and I'm only at page 87 and beginning to skim now): https://www.justice.gov/file/1142876/download

If you bother to click, CW-1 means "Cooperating Witness 1," Rick Singer. Most of the recorded conversations with parents occurred after Singer had agreed to cooperate, just FWI. Some of the students were aware of what was going on, but many were not, and there are even conversations about how the parents should lie to their kids so they wouldn't suspect. (Example: Why the student needed to take the test out of town or over the course of two days.)

Here are some of the juicier elements from the .gov link:

FBI college fraud investigation: the wildest stories from the college admissions inquiry - Vox

Here Are All The Incredible Details From The College Admissions Bribery Scandal

The Chronicle of Higher Education also has several articles on this: Pardon Our Interruption
 
This has nothing to do with rich or poor, it has to do with a system that allows anyone (I refuse to consider B-Listers and Hallmark actors as 'famous') it has to do with a system that allows anyone to purchase a seat at the table, and academic and athletic contributions are treated as currency.

Any way you look at this, this is proof of a subcultue/attitude where universities and professors see kids as bargaining chips. Professors and coaches willing to cheat more deserving students regardless of their race and academic merit.

What's worse is that the school's problem is that they didn't get their cut.

Sent from Trump Plaza's basement using Putin's MacBook.
 
I've spent quite a bit of time this afternoon reading the FBI affidavit (over 200 pages, and I'm only at page 87 and beginning to skim now): https://www.justice.gov/file/1142876/download

If you bother to click, CW-1 means "Cooperating Witness 1," Rick Singer. Most of the recorded conversations with parents occurred after Singer had agreed to cooperate, just FWI. Some of the students were aware of what was going on, but many were not, and there are even conversations about how the parents should lie to their kids so they wouldn't suspect. (Example: Why the student needed to take the test out of town or over the course of two days.)

Here are some of the juicier elements from the .gov link:

FBI college fraud investigation: the wildest stories from the college admissions inquiry - Vox

Here Are All The Incredible Details From The College Admissions Bribery Scandal

The Chronicle of Higher Education also has several articles on this: Pardon Our Interruption

FWIW, all the thus far filed court documents are here: Investigations of College Admissions and Testing Bribery Scheme. (Just be aware that in this matter, "bribery" is a term of art, so to speak, not a term of law. Nobody has been charged with bribery.)
 
This has nothing to do with rich or poor, it has to do with a system that allows anyone (I refuse to consider B-Listers and Hallmark actors as 'famous') it has to do with a system that allows anyone to purchase a seat at the table, and academic and athletic contributions are treated as currency.

Any way you look at this, this is proof of a subcultue/attitude where universities and professors see kids as bargaining chips. Professors and coaches willing to cheat more deserving students regardless of their race and academic merit.

What's worse is that the school's problem is that they didn't get their cut.

Sent from Trump Plaza's basement using Putin's MacBook.
Just so I understand your transactional take on the matter, would you please explain:
-- Who's the buyer? What are they buying?
-- Who's the seller? What are they selling?
-- What is the medium of exchange?
 
When talking about higher education, the only market that matters to me is the marketplace of ideas.

Fair. But seems that the marketplace for STEM ideas is paying better. :shrug:

But you have to know that academics are going to have a different view than consumers are going to have, particularly in reference to the humanities.

Of course they will.

Their views are going to be framed from their own little reality-free bubble of academia; from their safe spaces, safe from opinions and positions that have the temerity to differ from theirs; their safe spaces where any opinions and positions that don't toe the liberal / progressive / academic line are actively suppressed sought to be destroyed. Yeah, there's no telling what sort of 'ideas' are going to come forth from this 'disconnected from the realities of life' that the majority of people face, and successfully deal with on a day to day basis. Yeah, no telling at all. Something like the NGD is highly likely.
Oops. Already happened.

This latest scam has uncovered what was deeply sought to remain covered and hidden, namely that higher education these days, especially in the humanities, has turned from actual education to indoctrination as well as social networking to serve those 'beautiful people' (totally ugly on the inside) for their life long benefit.

Bring back the Socratic Method.
 
The discussions Re: "Ivy League University and the whole of the Top 12+ Universities in the Country and the mess of the wealthy "thinking its only for them", has been on the table for years, and now the truth of how the wealthy ... has 'Bastardized' the integrity that these schools proclaimed to uphold in providing high quality programming in accord with the standards in educations,.... they gained $$$ Billion of Public Taxpayer Money for Grants and Other Endowments based on that simple principle of providing programming that benefits society with those funds. Now, these people have turned it into a "get rich" and "be notably famous" as a basic objective of holding the University Name on their Degree.

We should be concerned as well about "how many of the "CRASHED AND DESTROYED INDUSTRY IN AMERICA" has come as a result of people who never should have gotten or ridden that "university titled on their degree to position', many in "public traded companies'... of which they have symptomatically destroyed. Long ago, when Company President was the highest position in companies... before the focus on the CEO and the "MBA" led to the hailing of a Degree as the Master Guru Label, that inferred wealthy without question and decision making without checks and balance being the leading "questions" as being of concern, it became so absurd, that the CEO became Chairman of the Board and some have had people holding three titles such as Chairman, CEO and President.... they have "ALWAYS" led the companies to over borrow, leverage it core assets, and then they seek to sell the company of plan a merger to sell itself to another... so ... the Executives "CASH OUT" with a Kings Ransom. Then one of the companies is dismantled and parts sold off and people laid off and locations closed, causing catastrophic economic damages that reverberate across the nation.


2015-1 _ Many of the wealthy hated to see young people who actually achieved academic excellent to get Scholarships to these Ivy League Labeled Universities, (because) The wealthy feel these Universities on Primarily Just for Them

126 - When the Wealthy enter into the Institution, they should go through a deeply focused orientation to teach them the understanding of the Universities Motto, this will be a process worth to engage. This should be for all entrants, its a solid 2 weeks to 6 weeks orientation.

132 - For generations these schools have played to the 'segregation programming", poor whites were omitted from consideration because they could not pay due to their status as being "Poor", Minorities were omitted, because of race and their status as being "Poor".

For decades these schools played the games of, "Tokenism", such as let a few poor whites in, and now its let a few poor blacks in; so (the University) can continue to get Federal Monies for grants to engage select programs and select projects, as well as other monies they are experts at pursuing and acquiring from Federal and State Agency of many types and function, who have and provide monies
.

142 To parents, don't become driven by the lure of money as the mission of selecting your child's pathway of education. Be of great concern that you continue the value point of promoting excellence of person, and ethics as an individual, to be the driving force of your child's educational aims. If you push for the ethical basis you will promote the quality in character and integrity within the humanity of your child, to be and become one who has a drive to be a contributor into life and an up-lifter of society and its citizen people. They will acknowledge and do well with business, because they will not forget that businesses purpose is to serve and service people. in doing so, you attain the glory of being a proud parent to have assisted your child in being "a good and honorable person" they and you can and will be proud of in their achievements. Thus so, the legacy of your family moves forth as one of honorable acknowledgement in their humane regard for life and society.

Remember:
Matthew 16-26: For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?
 
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121 Introspection, ethics, morality - are we "more concern with making a living than making a life" (MLK Jr.)...

144

156 "Whom among the masses is willing to take such a dare to embrace such a greatness to build a better society of mankinds environments?"

157 Many posting challenge the admissions both of poor minorities, poor whites and working whites, and as Legacy confidential has pointed out, there is challenge to the legacy admittance's as well as the wealth drive open highway admittances.
In regards of all these groups- when it comes to education, we should not play such a twisted admittance game. We test and re-test and make many categories of assessments as to who can and who does get in.
Should we be such a society which places such difficulties within accessibility.

166 When the subject is of open class and closed stratification class. America has engaged and embraced both. a very dominant part was the racial, which entailed 'slavery and segregation", then there are among the whites, both closed strafication, with regards to economics, religion, social position and other variables which segregated the ranks.

169 What concerns me regarding these claimed institution. Why have they ignored reality for so long? Realism's of this nations conditions, yet people are playing games as to the institution of learning. But furthermore what is with the Alumni, who spread across this nation within every national organization and industry. But none can open their eyes and see American is dying at the core.


170 What drives grade inflation at Ivy League colleges

174 I believe _____ is incapable of understanding what is at hand because he isn't a teenager brainwashed from birth to attain an Ivy Title, he doesn't understand the devastation of 100s of thousands affected by rejection letters to come (words from a young person saddled with the stresses and struggles with the demands to get into Ivy League.)
 
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