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Thread: AOC calls Afghanistan war 'disastrous + wrong' response to 9/11, says US should have tried 'non-inte

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    Re: AOC calls Afghanistan war 'disastrous + wrong' response to 9/11, says US should have tried 'non-

    Quote Originally Posted by pamak View Post
    and





    The second quote is not related to the first quote.

    I am not a professional military person, but based on what I know from my service in the Greek army and my interest in military affairs a long time ago, the manual you use in your second quote is about conventional military operations. There are different manuals for counterintelligence operations, and I found one for you so that you can see the different approach which the US Army uses to go after insurgents

    For example,

    FM 3-24

    INSURGENCIES AND COUNTERING INSURGENCIES

    https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24.pdf

    First Page of Chapter 3

    To be successful in interacting with the local population to gain information on the enemy, or to understand their requirements, military members must do more than learn a few basic facts or “do’s and do nots.” They must understand the way that their actions can change the situation for the local population (both positively and negatively) and the resulting perceptions of the population towards those actions. .

    A military commander cannot mindlessly initiate actions of maximum violence (which often comes with heavy collateral damage) without taking in consideration the "perception of the local population towards such actions"
    How well has that worked, so far?

    Also, there's nothing in there about not killing the enemy. Chances are, like Iraq and Afghanistan, the locals hate the terrorists more than they hate us.

    There's value in counter-insurgency guidelines, but you can't confuse "winning hearts and minds" with trying to persuade the enemy into playing nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by HenryChinaski View Post
    You people are my problem. You’re a major component of what’s wrong with this country.
    It's more important to be morally right than factually correct - Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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    Re: AOC calls Afghanistan war 'disastrous + wrong' response to 9/11, says US should have tried 'non-

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How well has that worked, so far?

    Also, there's nothing in there about not killing the enemy. Chances are, like Iraq and Afghanistan, the locals hate the terrorists more than they hate us.

    There's value in counter-insurgency guidelines, but you can't confuse "winning hearts and minds" with trying to persuade the enemy into playing nice.
    So now, it is my turn to ask...

    Are you saying that the US Army got it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    According to The United States Army, it is:

    a. Despite any technological advantages that our armed forces might have over an enemy, only close combat between ground forces gains the decision in battle. Infantry rifle forces (infantry, airborne, air assault, light, and ranger) have a key role in close combat situations.

    Are you saying they got it wrong?

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    Re: AOC calls Afghanistan war 'disastrous + wrong' response to 9/11, says US should have tried 'non-

    Quote Originally Posted by pamak View Post
    So now, it is my turn to ask...

    Are you saying that the US Army got it wrong?
    No, I'm saying the elected leaders got it wrong. The armed forces were following orders. Although, some of the blames lies with certain general officers for going along with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by HenryChinaski View Post
    You people are my problem. You’re a major component of what’s wrong with this country.
    It's more important to be morally right than factually correct - Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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    Re: AOC calls Afghanistan war 'disastrous + wrong' response to 9/11, says US should have tried 'non-

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, I'm saying the elected leaders got it wrong. The armed forces were following orders. Although, some of the blames lies with certain general officers for going along with it.
    The manual I gave to you was not written by "elected leaders." It expresses the philosophy of the US military leadership regarding how to best fight against an insurgency. Of course, the attitude of the elected political leaders and the attitude of the military ones are related since the former will not permit a nutcase to rise at the highest positions of the military. Recall how McArthur was booted out by Truman during the Korean War.

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    Re: AOC calls Afghanistan war 'disastrous + wrong' response to 9/11, says US should have tried 'non-

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    Do you enjoy talking to yourself?



    The Taliban were back in a year with much of their leadership intact.







    You think that proves that the US didn't go into Afghanistan for Osama?
    Obviously I wasnt talking to myself as the person I was responding to responded back. Nice try at an insult though.

    No they were not. Not in any meaningful way.

    I never claimed that we were not going to Afghanistan for OBL but it does prove that it wasn't the only reason. It's right there in black and white. Trying to pretend otherwise is nothing less then dishonest.
    President Franklin Roosevelt eulogized a fallen American Soldier by saying, “He stands in the unbroken line of patriots who have dared to die [that] freedom might live, and grow, and increase its blessings. Freedom lives, and through it he lives--in a way that humbles the undertakings of most men."

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    Re: AOC calls Afghanistan war 'disastrous + wrong' response to 9/11, says US should have tried 'non-

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Operational planning is the orginization of combat power, it's deployment and employment in a theater of operations.

    The elements of combat power are: leadership, firepower, maneuver, protection and information.

    I know all too well about operational planning. I've been on both ends of the plan: orgination and implementation. I also know that no plan survives first contact with enemy and at the end of the day, violence of action will be what decides the engagement.

    To paraphrase General Patton: the objective of any military operation is to do more damage, in less time, than the enemy. That can only be accomplished by using all available force.

    I challenge you to find any legitimate source that says otherwise. Since you study warfare that shhouldn't be too hard.
    The fact that we have done far more damage in far less time in then the enemy in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria while not using any where close to all available force proves you completly wrong.
    President Franklin Roosevelt eulogized a fallen American Soldier by saying, “He stands in the unbroken line of patriots who have dared to die [that] freedom might live, and grow, and increase its blessings. Freedom lives, and through it he lives--in a way that humbles the undertakings of most men."

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    Re: AOC calls Afghanistan war 'disastrous + wrong' response to 9/11, says US should have tried 'non-

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    AOC calls Afghanistan war '''disastrous + wrong''' response to 9/11, says US should have tried '''non-intervention''' | Fox News


    Ignorant little twit who doesn't know her ass from a hole in the ground. No doubt she believes the same thing about 1941. My bad, she's too stupid to know about Pearl Harbor.
    Fox News Flash-AOC farts in elevator. In depth report on Hannity

    Dont take much for the Righties hair to combust
    And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the p**sy. You can do anything." –Donald Trump

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    Re: AOC calls Afghanistan war 'disastrous + wrong' response to 9/11, says US should have tried 'non-

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    But, I've used actual documentation to prove my point. The subject of the exchange being: how to defeat the enemy on the battlefield.
    Which your insisting has to be done through a conventional mean. The war in both Iraq and Afghanistan show this to be false.

    You can't win an insurgency just by killing people. You have to convince the people to trust the you and the faction you're supporting. Communism triumphed in Vietnam because South Vietnam never had the trust of it's people.

    Petraeus knew it best. "Money is ammunition."

    We're discussing warfare in it's simplest terms: an infantryman, with his weapon, defeating the enemy in close quarter combat.
    The majority of casualties inflicted on the Taliban are not from small arms. It's from vehicle mounted weapons, artillery, and air strikes. You keep trying to apply a tactical mindset to a strategic situation, ignoring why those fields of warfare are separate in the first place.
    Last edited by Jredbaron96; 03-10-19 at 07:35 AM.
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    Re: AOC calls Afghanistan war 'disastrous + wrong' response to 9/11, says US should have tried 'non-

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It worked in every other war.
    It works in conventional wars, but we're not fighting conventional wars.

    If the enemy is still waging war, it's because you haven't killed enough of them.
    If body counts were the only thing that mattered in war than the Soviets lost WW2, North Vietnam lost in Vietnam, and the Mujaheddin lost in Afghanistan. That's ridiculous.

    One of the basic rules of an insurgency is you can't kill your way to victory. Because inevitably you make mistakes and kill people who shouldn't be killed, and as a result the people stop trusting you.

    Guerilla forces, at some point, have to transition to conventional tactics to be successful. Sometimes, the conventional force has to coerce that transition (like in Vietnam) and can therefore take advantage of superior mobility and firepower to introduce the enemy to defeat on the battlefield.
    Based on what? What you think? Castro overran Cuba with a guerilla army. The Taliban have been fighting as an irregular force for the past 30 years and are still kicking.

    The Taliban is no different. At somepoint, it will have to transition to a conventional force to try and prevent the infiltration of it's rear area by the attacking forces. Basically, attack, take and hold their bases of supply, forcing them into the countryside, cutting them off from their food supplies and creature comforts. They would only be able to live off the land for so long, before starvation would begin to degrade it's combat effectiveness. Along with poisoning their water sources and those ****ers are done for in a few months.
    This makes no sense and stinks of someone who has no idea how to fight an insurgency. You say that an irregular army can't fight an asymmetric war forever yet the Taliban and it's predecessors have been doing that for decades. And now the Taliban are winning.
    “We were all of us cogs in a great machine which sometimes rolled forward, nobody knew where, sometimes backwards, nobody knew why.”

    ― Ernst Toller

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    Re: AOC calls Afghanistan war 'disastrous + wrong' response to 9/11, says US should have tried 'non-

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It worked in every other war.

    If the enemy is still waging war, it's because you haven't killed enough of them.

    A perfect example is when ISIS had large troop formations, in the open with little concealment and even less cover making them ripe for air attack.

    Another example is, we know where the Taliban hides in Afghanistan, making them a perfect target for air attack with a follow on ground assault, using close air support and indirect fire. Fighting in the mountains of Afghanistan is no different than fighting in the mountains of Italy.

    Guerilla forces, at some point, have to transition to conventional tactics to be successful. Sometimes, the conventional force has to coerce that transition (like in Vietnam) and can therefore take advantage of superior mobility and firepower to introduce the enemy to defeat on the battlefield.

    The Taliban is no different. At somepoint, it will have to transition to a conventional force to try and prevent the infiltration of it's rear area by the attacking forces. Basically, attack, take and hold their bases of supply, forcing them into the countryside, cutting them off from their food supplies and creature comforts. They would only be able to live off the land for so long, before starvation would begin to degrade it's combat effectiveness. Along with poisoning their water sources and those ****ers are done for in a few months.
    Thank you for proving for about the 1000th time that you have no idea what you are talking about. The Taliban does not have a base of supply. And they are already mostly living in the countryside. They get the majority of thier supplies from the Local villages. Both willing and unwilling. The harder the US military make thier lives the more they support then Taliban.
    President Franklin Roosevelt eulogized a fallen American Soldier by saying, “He stands in the unbroken line of patriots who have dared to die [that] freedom might live, and grow, and increase its blessings. Freedom lives, and through it he lives--in a way that humbles the undertakings of most men."

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