Amazon cancels plans to build New York headquarters

OldFatGuy said:

Yup, that's why every major bank, insurer, and hundreds of other worldwide businesses keep massive presences in NYC. The incentives were secondary to Amazon's initial decision, it was available talent in the city that drew them. Don't be surprised if they reverse their decision again. Both representatives of the Mayor and the Governor are currently in meetings with Amazon representatives. This isn't over until the fat lady sings, and she's been reported missing.

Amazon is looking in new directions for investment and expansion of business offerings. NYC is the economic capital of the world. Being here presents opportunities that will not be found elsewhere. You can ask Apple, Alphabet, Microsoft and others who are forging ahead with plans for campuses in NYC. Not being here is a detrimental decision for the future.

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We shall see. My personal opinion is that NYC is the wave of the past.

Hedgology said:

Okay, so we are in agreement that commuting from NJ to NY is about the same. Fantastic.

What you're still mistaken about is the living cost, and I'm just going to assume by NYC you're including all five boroughs. MABYE rent in downtown Hoboken is comparable to the average rent Brooklyn or Queens, but otherwise, no. The average rents in Manhattan is much more, regardless of where you live (maybe east Harlem is cheaper).

There is a reason why Williams-burg is considered "hipster-town;" it's basically for white people who can't afford to live in the city anymore. And the further away you live from Manhattan, the cheaper the rents are.

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Hoboken is not an affordable place to live and hasn't been since I've been on Jersey side of the river. Properties near Washington St. (the main strip) are over $2,000 a month; you might get lucky west of Willow, but that isn't near the PATH. All of the commuter towns in NJ have pretty high property values and rent to match.

Jack Hays said:

The opposition was ridiculously irrational.

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Right, because if anyone needs a multi-$billion incentive package to help them finance their new office space, it's an $800 billion company run by a guy worth $135 billion. Sheesh, it's CRAAAZZYYY to not embrace that **** with open arms!

I feel like I'm in a twilight zone here where it's right wingers cheering on the government picking winners and losers in the marketplace with massive subsidies (or "incentives" if you prefer) available just for this company, one of the world's biggest, negotiated in secret, and claiming that opposing such huge government interventions in the marketplace is "ridiculously irrational."

I get the practical reasons to support the deal, but the idea that opposing these government "incentive" programs is irrational is just mind boggling to me, especially from anyone anywhere on the right side politically. Of course it would be better for NYC and NYS to spend their efforts improving the climate overall versus handouts to a few big boys. That's especially true for NYC where there is huge demand for space, so there's no reason to hand out $billions for new businesses. It's not Detroit, where maybe the decision making might be 180 degrees different.

Jack Hays said:

We shall see. My personal opinion is that NYC is the wave of the past.

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Current growth doesn't support that position. Population shifts have been trending toward city living for a long time, and for companies who want to be where the talent is will make the effort to set up shop there. You have the benefit of established infrastructure and it's an easy sell for high wage earners who can transplant easier than low wage workers. LG is setting up shop right across the Hudson north of the GWB and with the Fort Lee area being rapidly developed, it's a clear indicator investors see the growth and are building accordingly. What may result is a shift between urban centers, but the desirable urban centers seem to be where people are flocking to. NYC's boom is a little over 20 years old and I think there's a lot more to go before it jumps the shark.

Chomsky said:

Did you run into Anthony Bourdain? :mrgreen:

(May he R.I.P.)

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No, but I used to see The Daily Show crew (Helms, Colbert, Bee, Stewart) regularly along with a variety of actors. I worked with The Daily Show production team once; helping them reorganize their footage archive and develop cataloging best practices.

Jack Hays said:

We shall see. My personal opinion is that NYC is the wave of the past.

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NYC doesn't care what you think. When you can show any other economic powerhouse of city that competes with NYC, that will supplant NYC, let me know. It won't be London, Zurich, Hong Kong or Beijing. They all index to the NYC banks. More important, they all index to Williams St., not Wall Street or Broad Street. When you think you understand, I'll guarantee you don't.

sangha said:

Not being in real estate, I certainly don't have the detailed knowledge of the various markets in the areas close to Manhattan, but from reading the news and passing through them, what you said doesn't surprise me.

However, we were talking in a more general sense, and I suspect that, generally speaking, rents are still a bit lower in those sections of Bk and Queens than in Manhattan

WRT, taking a car into Flushing, two words:

Oh vey!

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3 years ago, I would have agreed with you. With diligent searching in the desirable neighborhoods, it is possible to find a bargain when a long time rent stabilized tenant vacates a unit, if the landlord doesn't do a major upgrade allowing for high increases, or doesn't bother to withdraw from rent stabilization when the market rate is over $2k per month. The Bronx is the last bastion for lower rents, but not much longer. I recently toured the Grand Concourse. Those glorious old buildings are all being renovated and updated. The Hub couldn't be more congested. Up by Fordham, the prices were never low, and Riverside is experiencing a renaissance. New construction of mini mansions in Throgs Neck is rampant. Even City Island is in major demand tho long time residents are not leaving willingly. Staten Island, Richmond County, is almost all one family homes, occupied and passed from generation to generation. Rentals almost non-existent except near the ferry. And gentrification is creeping in there.

sangha said:

And, since we were talking about people from LIC who are low income, many of those types of businesses employ low skilled workers.

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Yes, some do. But lately even the businesses that did employ low end workers are looking for skills that will bring more efficiency and stability. Immigration is bringing in skilled workers for low end jobs. One of my long time acquaintances owns a cement plant in LIC. He is only hiring college grads with degrees in chemistry. On the fly, his men need to know how to adjust cement formulas to weather conditions, humidity levels from underground streams and former wetlands, drainage lines, and deal with interactions from gas and power lines, local water mains. Mind boggling as his drivers operate computers to alter the cement mixes. Almost all his employees are from Ireland and Poland. The old time mafia controlled cement companies can't compete, even with strong arm tactics. The end product builders want and demand isn't there. Astonishing.

The old junk yards have been replaced by recyclers. Again skills are needed, and automation is also taking a toll on low end jobs. The days when Waldes Kohiner hired a thousand or so unskilled workers to stamp out retaining rings is long gone. Now one operator in Mexico takes the place of 200 pressmen making those same retaining rings. The myriad of auto body shops in nearby Woodside want craftsmen and artists to handle the luxury cars they are repairing. It is not what it was. Mechanics need computing degrees because of how cars function today. Same for all machinery.

A friend's son is salesman for a company that made nothing but carts for distributing materials in factories. The company no longer makes those carts, they make drones with attached robotic arms, controlled through a central location in the factories, eliminating thousands of low end jobs nationwide. The company, once facing bankruptcy, can't keep up with demand for its products. He tells me the next step is autonomous drones, and his company is an Apple, Inc. partner. Apple is bypassing the autonomous car with bigger targets. AI will change everything.

OldFatGuy said:

3 years ago, I would have agreed with you. With diligent searching in the desirable neighborhoods, it is possible to find a bargain when a long time rent stabilized tenant vacates a unit, if the landlord doesn't do a major upgrade allowing for high increases, or doesn't bother to withdraw from rent stabilization when the market rate is over $2k per month. The Bronx is the last bastion for lower rents, but not much longer. I recently toured the Grand Concourse. Those glorious old buildings are all being renovated and updated. The Hub couldn't be more congested. Up by Fordham, the prices were never low, and Riverside is experiencing a renaissance. New construction of mini mansions in Throgs Neck is rampant. Even City Island is in major demand tho long time residents are not leaving willingly. Staten Island, Richmond County, is almost all one family homes, occupied and passed from generation to generation. Rentals almost non-existent except near the ferry. And gentrification is creeping in there.

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A good chunk of the Grand Concourse has some glorious art deco buildings; the avenue itself is a beautiful thoroughfare leading to the courthouse. There are quite a few neighborhoods that have architecturally interesting buildings. The one in which I spent my youth (Washington Heights) has some beautiful bones; you can see it in the design and craftsmanship. My mother is still in that unit and is a rent controlled property; the apartment is gorgeous and can easily command close to $3,000 based on the comparable units in the building.

Jack Hays said:

[FONT="][COLOR=#188FFF]Business[COLOR=#959595] The Independent[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[h=3][URL="https://news.yahoo.com/amazon-invites-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-173555028.html"]Amazon invites Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to 'see for yourself' after she alleges 'dehumanising conditions' for workers[/URL][/h]Amazon has thrown down the gauntlet to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, inviting the congresswoman to visit one of its facilities after she claimed the tech giant had created “dehumanising conditions” for its workers. The 29-year-old congresswoman was among those who celebrated after Amazon announced this week it was pulling out of plans to open what it termed a second headquarters in New York City. Ms Ocasio-Cortez, who represents the city’s 14th district, which is close to the Long Island City neighborhood of Queens where the facility was to be based, had opposed the $3bn in tax incentives the state and city had offered the e-commerce giant, headed by Jeff Bezos.



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Ocasio-Cortez cheers as Amazon scraps NYC headquarters, she tweeted, “New Yorkers & their neighbors defeated Amazon’s corporate greed, its worker exploitation, and the power of the richest man in the world.” Well, she has cost New York thousands of jobs, putting hear own political interest above her community.

Among black voters, 70% backed the deal while only 25 percent objected; among Latinos, 81% supported the deal while 17% were opposed, and among white 51% supported it and 40% opposed (Majority of New Yorkers want Amazon’s HQ2 in Queens: poll).

She described herself as someone who really understands the frustrations of working people. And she is the person who care about minorities working people? Beware of the radical left fanatics. With her attitude of “Take these jobs and shove it”, she must be proud of herself.

Jack Hays said:

We shall see. My personal opinion is that NYC is the wave of the past.

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Sometimes I don't know if your serious or just trolling. You seem like a pretty smart guy so when you write nonsense like this I hope you're just trolling..

ElChupacabra said:

A good chunk of the Grand Concourse has some glorious art deco buildings; the avenue itself is a beautiful thoroughfare leading to the courthouse. There are quite a few neighborhoods that have architecturally interesting buildings. The one in which I spent my youth (Washington Heights) has some beautiful bones; you can see it in the design and craftsmanship. My mother is still in that unit and is a rent controlled property; the apartment is gorgeous and can easily command close to $3,000 based on the comparable units in the building.

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Both the architecture and craftsmanship, along with quality of materials cannot be approached by what is being built today. I despise the glass sheathed towers that have been built in LIC. Downright ugly. Yet the units keep selling. The Grand Concourse was somewhat modeled after the Avenue des Champs-Élysées in Paris.

Washington Heights has had its ups and downs, like much the rest of the city, but it is beautiful. I especially enjoy visiting the nearby Cloisters. One of the city's not so hidden gems. I hope your mother enjoys living there for many more years.

SenorXm/Sirius said:

No surprise really. I doubt Amazon expected the kind of backlash they got, but the reality is NYC doesn't need Amazon's HQ there.

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Had Bezos wanted to locate in a spot like Hoboken, it might have gotten a better reception, but NJ probably wasn't willing to fork over the way he hoped NYC would. And forking over was the name of the game, it wasn't a leftist thing. Bezos wanted a bribe and NYC didn't want to pay that big a bribe.

ElChupacabra said:

Hoboken is not an affordable place to live and hasn't been since I've been on Jersey side of the river. Properties near Washington St. (the main strip) are over $2,000 a month; you might get lucky west of Willow, but that isn't near the PATH. All of the commuter towns in NJ have pretty high property values and rent to match.

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But Hoboken has about what the proposed AMZ HQ spot in NYC has, a large rail yard terminus.
That's why Bezos wanted the spot he wanted in Long Island City...it sat smack dab at the rail yard.

OldFatGuy said:

Both the architecture and craftsmanship, along with quality of materials cannot be approached by what is being built today. I despise the glass sheathed towers that have been built in LIC. Downright ugly. Yet the units keep selling. The Grand Concourse was somewhat modeled after the Avenue des Champs-Élysées in Paris.

Washington Heights has had its ups and downs, like much the rest of the city, but it is beautiful. I especially enjoy visiting the nearby Cloisters. One of the city's not so hidden gems. I hope your mother enjoys living there for many more years.

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Yeah, you can't replicate that attention to detail nowadays unless you have an absurdly high budget and the time to do it. It's less about the quality of the architecture and more about the desire to be in a prime location it seems. I agree that much of the new architecture isn't that interesting; you have some that do a bit more from a design perspective but not many.

I lived through the downs in the Heights, but it was an educational experience for sure and a testament to how important family influence is in keeping you out of trouble. It was very easy to find yourself in a life going sideways with the temptation of fast money. My parents worked hard and honestly so my sister and I could go to private school; I couldn't see myself betraying all of that to have trinkets and leading a life of looking over one's shoulder. The Cloisters and that entire Ft. Washington strip down to 181st was always a respite from the rougher parts of the neighborhood. My mother owned a beauty parlor, and most of her clientele were Jewish women. They respected my mother's dedication to her craft and her skill, so they helped her out and next thing you know we were immersed in the Jewish community. We got our meats from the kosher butcher shop and it was one of her customers that got us into the apartment I mentioned. The building was almost exclusively Jewish and we were the first Hispanic family there. Thanks for the well wishes; she loves that apartment. I want to get her over here to NJ so she's closer but she insists on staying. Fortunately we're close so it isn't a problem getting to her when she needs us.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

But Hoboken has about what the proposed AMZ HQ spot in NYC has, a large rail yard terminus.
That's why Bezos wanted the spot he wanted in Long Island City...it sat smack dab at the rail yard.

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There's definitely a lot of space still available to develop north west of Hoboken, but I can see why Queens was more appealing. The "gold coast" in Hudson and Bergen counties are catching up but still don't have the prestige as being in NYC; plus the outer boroughs are hip and chic. When my Queens and Brooklyn coworkers made fun of my move to NJ, I told them they could laugh all they want but my commute was shorter!

ElChupacabra said:

No, but I used to see The Daily Show crew (Helms, Colbert, Bee, Stewart) regularly along with a variety of actors. I worked with The Daily Show production team once; helping them reorganize their footage archive and develop cataloging best practices.

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Actually, I was wondering if you saw them consorting or taking part in the nefarious activities you earlier described!

Chomsky said:

Actually, I was wondering if you saw them consorting or taking part in the nefarious activities you earlier described!

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:lamo

No such luck. I would often see them in the morning while on my bike. I used to ride into the office (55th St between 8th and 9th) and on the way from the Greenway I rode up 54th where The Daily Show studio was located. No nefarious activities to report though...

Checkerboard Strangler said:

But Hoboken has about what the proposed AMZ HQ spot in NYC has, a large rail yard terminus.
That's why Bezos wanted the spot he wanted in Long Island City...it sat smack dab at the rail yard.

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Except Amazon was not planning a warehouse on the site. And the Sunnyside Yards offer no local access, plus it is on the eastern side of the 69th Street Bridge transit hub, already an over congested problem, poor logistics. Strictly storage, and litigation over easement rights. There was talk of a B&M 2 story retail showcase and pickup locker. Interesting theory. Expensive site for a warehouse, with plenty of available warehouse space in adjacent Woodside along the LIRR commercial line for northern Queens and Long Island, currently not in use. A far less expensive proposition which is likely, regardless of the headquarters decision. Amazon hasn't taken significant advantage of rail transport during its history.

There's also a push for an Amazon warehouse at Hunt's Point in the Bronx. Already a site for a Whole Foods warehouse. Relatively inexpensive warehouse space, plenty of it, mostly busy in the early mornings for the wholesale food and flower markets, easy access to the Triboro, Whitestone and Throgsneck Bridges, points north. Plenty of low level available labor.

OldFatGuy said:

Except Amazon was not planning a warehouse on the site. And the Sunnyside Yards offer no local access, plus it is on the eastern side of the 69th Street Bridge transit hub, already an over congested problem, poor logistics. Strictly storage, and litigation over easement rights. There was talk of a B&M 2 story retail showcase and pickup locker. Interesting theory. Expensive site for a warehouse, with plenty of available warehouse space in adjacent Woodside along the LIRR commercial line for northern Queens and Long Island, currently not in use. A far less expensive proposition which is likely, regardless of the headquarters decision. Amazon hasn't taken significant advantage of rail transport during its history.

There's also a push for an Amazon warehouse at Hunt's Point in the Bronx. Already a site for a Whole Foods warehouse. Relatively inexpensive warehouse space, plenty of it, mostly busy in the early mornings for the wholesale food and flower markets, easy access to the Triboro, Whitestone and Throgsneck Bridges, points north. Plenty of low level available labor.

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Okay, thank you for that. I have now learned more about the issue.

Chomsky said:

My God. You wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes in my old rough & tumble neighborhood in the city!

:2razz:

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Give me a break! I was like 9-10 years old at that time. :roll:

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Okay, thank you for that. I have now learned more about the issue.

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You're welcome. Still it was an interesting theory.

The Sunnyside Yards is the largest single lot of undeveloped land in western Queens. Many have their eyes on it for future development, but it is convoluted with multiple easement rights from railroads that were absorbed into both Penn Central and MetroNorth, and land borders among other private land holders, in dispute. Eventually, I suspect someone will create a plan to build a platform above the yards and then develop on the platform. A monumental project for a creation of an entirely new city within the city. The proximity to Manhattan cannot be ignored and the value incalculable. Infrastructure costs and planning alone will be immensely expensive, with a potential for returns far greater. However, the rail system must be protected and expanded, reordered to make more sense. Almost 45% of the nation's GDP travels through the yards as trains pass through to the Hell's Gate Bridge and parts north of Long Island Sound and back. Another major bridge in dire need of maintenance and expansion. Bringing the various parties to agreement will take a strong hand, another Robert Moses. And he was far from perfect with his great visions for the future, despite his brilliant legacy.

We forget, with all the current political animosity for Trump, both he and Harry Helmsley fielded such a proposal during the early '80's, to be thwarted by all the political ramifications of the corruption in Albany and City Hall. We hear the cries of corruption when Trump's name rises, but Harry, his mentor, set the stage for the financial paths Trump followed, and they were both brilliant putting other people's money to work. They weren't the first, Fiorello "The Little Flower" LaGuardia suggested such a plan as a project to put returning Vets from WWII back to productive work, only to be stopped hard by the then still powerful Pennsylvania Railroad company because they feared the precedence of an eminent domain taking of their properties across the country. Such a project in partnership with government could have prevented them from going bankrupt. Paths not taken. They forgot their lands were War Department Grants from the post civil war era, exempt from eminent domain. We are all connected, by stupidity.

PoS said:

Give me a break! I was like 9-10 years old at that time. :roll:

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No excuse! At 8-9 years of age, city kids are well versed on how to be extortionists with strong arm tactics. Ask their parents and grandparents about that routine.

"It's chicken nuggets and french fries at every meal, no green stuff or I'll show dad the nude polaroids you gave your boyfriends before dad. The ones in the shoe box at the bottom back of your closet. Selfies before selfies. BTW, nice boobs mom. What do mean that was grandma at Woodstock??? That's disgusting."

OldFatGuy said:

You're welcome. Still it was an interesting theory.

The Sunnyside Yards is the largest single lot of undeveloped land in western Queens. Many have their eyes on it for future development, but it is convoluted with multiple easement rights from railroads that were absorbed into both Penn Central and MetroNorth, and land borders among other private land holders, in dispute. Eventually, I suspect someone will create a plan to build a platform above the yards and then develop on the platform. A monumental project for a creation of an entirely new city within the city. The proximity to Manhattan cannot be ignored and the value incalculable. Infrastructure costs and planning alone will be immensely expensive, with a potential for returns far greater. However, the rail system must be protected and expanded, reordered to make more sense. Almost 45% of the nation's GDP travels through the yards as trains pass through to the Hell's Gate Bridge and parts north of Long Island Sound and back. Another major bridge in dire need of maintenance and expansion. Bringing the various parties to agreement will take a strong hand, another Robert Moses. And he was far from perfect with his great visions for the future, despite his brilliant legacy.

We forget, with all the current political animosity for Trump, both he and Harry Helmsley fielded such a proposal during the early '80's, to be thwarted by all the political ramifications of the corruption in Albany and City Hall. We hear the cries of corruption when Trump's name rises, but Harry, his mentor, set the stage for the financial paths Trump followed, and they were both brilliant putting other people's money to work. They weren't the first, Fiorello "The Little Flower" LaGuardia suggested such a plan as a project to put returning Vets from WWII back to productive work, only to be stopped hard by the then still powerful Pennsylvania Railroad company because they feared the precedence of an eminent domain taking of their properties across the country. Such a project in partnership with government could have prevented them from going bankrupt. Paths not taken. They forgot their lands were War Department Grants from the post civil war era, exempt from eminent domain. We are all connected, by stupidity.

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Yes "good ole" Harry Hemsley and one of Trump Mentors? I didn't know that but I should have guessed..

Date: 04/14/1988 12:00 AM

US ATTORNEY RUDOLPH GIULIANI, NEW YORK DISTRICT ATTORNEY

ROBERT MORGENTHAU AND OTHER OFFICIALS HOLD A PRESS

CONFERENCE TO ANNOUNCE THE INDICTMENTS AGAINST REAL ESTATE

MAGNATES LEONA AND HARRY HELMSLEY. THEY ARE CHARGED W/

CONSPIRING TO DEFRAUD NEW YORK STATE OF TAXES.

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Yes it sure sounds like Trump is a "chip off the old block":lol: But Rudy... How you have changed...

Access Denied

Click on the link anyway it works.

JasperL said:

Right, because if anyone needs a multi-$billion incentive package to help them finance their new office space, it's an $800 billion company run by a guy worth $135 billion. Sheesh, it's CRAAAZZYYY to not embrace that **** with open arms!

I feel like I'm in a twilight zone here where it's right wingers cheering on the government picking winners and losers in the marketplace with massive subsidies (or "incentives" if you prefer) available just for this company, one of the world's biggest, negotiated in secret, and claiming that opposing such huge government interventions in the marketplace is "ridiculously irrational."

I get the practical reasons to support the deal, but the idea that opposing these government "incentive" programs is irrational is just mind boggling to me, especially from anyone anywhere on the right side politically. ...

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All good points, and its a bit disappointing that your the only other poster that has noted the seeming ideological contradictions in this issue. We don't often agree.

There has been much made of the fact that the Amazon deal was pushed by people normally at odds with one another, however it could (or perhaps should) have been opposed by ideological enemies normally at odds with one another, as well. Some thoughts:

First, those in support of the deal were state and local politicians accountable to their base, who expect results; that group (most of an older generation) are descended from centrists and liberals-progressives that accept the mixed economy with a capitalist economic base, and that the "rules" of politics including incentivizing companies (or penalizing them) as leverage for local and regional growth in jobs and/or tax benefits. As such, they understand the basics of doing business in a business economy, as well as reaping campaign contributions and eventual spots on corporate boards (or as lobbyists) in their future.

Second, those not in support are ideologists. For the ideologist (left or right), the district and voters come second. Their first loyalty is to a transformation of the social and economic structure, and for AOC and the "democratic socialists" that means never benefiting the capitalist corporate enemy, even to help your voters or party allies. To rephrase an old platitude: "If your not part of the solution in ending capitalism, your part of the problem in perpetuating it".

Third, in theory the ideologists of the older free market right (not Trump nationalists) also ought to oppose this deal. For them the state has no role in other than being umpires for universal and neutral rules of a free market, not participants and market manipulators picking winners and losers. The thought of giving preferences to Amazon (as opposed to any other local or national business) and exempting them from taxes that other businesses have to pay should strike them as unfair and unjust - as well as opening the door for more crony capitalism (good buddy allies with politicians).

Mind you, while I normally lean to the free market right, I am uncertain if we ought to accept that NY should follow the lead of its leaders or not. Like it or not, communities are a part of the mixed economy and could be at a disadvantage if a few of them chose to take the high road and play polite badminton, while the rest of the country plays down and dirty rugby. Nor, for that matter, would it seem to be in the interests of even leftist New Yorkers to try ban the games and burn down the stadium in a fit of ideological purity.

So yes, it is an interesting mix of counter-vailing attitudes and forces making some potentially strange bedfellows.