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In Utah and Idaho, GOP looks to ignore Ballot Measures

Obscurity said:
They are a fraud. They are trying to stack courts and gerrymander to keep the minority rule over the majority's will.

It will not end well.
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Their voters will be screaming, "It's a republic, not a democracy" until there is nothing left.
 
MrPeanut said:
Their voters will be screaming, "It's a republic, not a democracy" until there is nothing left.
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Sure, and it is a republic. But that doesn't matter. Ballot measures are democratic by necessity. When it comes to gerrymandering, the state is not restricted to allowing elected officials only to redistrict. As far as I am aware, a non-partisan panel is absolutely consitutional, and the voters chose it - thus it becomes law, or else what's the point in ballot measures?

It's the same as in my state. We voted to get rid of property tax. They are "working" on it, and it is being phased out, but, it's not blatantly being ignored by the controlling party.

It's completely unacceptable.
 
Obscurity said:
Legislating from the bench? I thought you guys were against this.

See that's what's hilarious about this conversation. Alot of folks are against legislating from the bench - I'd assume you are.

So when congress does indeed pass a law, or in this case, a state constituency votes yes for a ballot measure that is to become law, it is then endlessly litigated by special interest parties.

This is a major, major problem when it comes to legislation. How can anyone get anything done if it is endlessly litigated and decided upon by unelected, appointed officials bearing a burden congress is to bear?
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Direct democracy has its merits but also has potentially dangerous pitfalls. I agree with you that courts should not have the power to make law but also think that a representative government (only the legislature can make/alter laws) is better than direct democracy.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Direct democracy has its merits but also has potentially dangerous pitfalls. I agree with you that courts should not have the power to make law but also think that a representative government (only the legislature can make/alter laws) is better than direct democracy.
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Direct democracy can't possibly work or else you'd have genocide. I think we can all agree on that. However, the knife cuts both ways. We are after all a republic, representative democracy. We are not a strict democracy, which of course would consume itself.

The issue here is that the majority of voters are being overruled by the people -they elected-. Right now the surge in brashness in legislative bodies is pretty insane.

Where the People's Vote Can Be Negated by Legislators - CityLab

Here's another instance; Measure 22, South Dakota, passed in ballot. The very lawmakers that would be held accountable by the measure voted to repeal it!

One high profile example came after South Dakota voters passed the (legally tenuous) Measure 22 in 2016, which would have enforced campaign ethics regulations, and reformed campaign finance laws. By 2017, following a drawn-out challenge to its legality, the very lawmakers who would have been accountable to it voted for its repeal. Even the Initiative 77 debate follows other clear precedents: The D.C. council has reversed four other measures in its history; and a similar minimum-wage bill for tipped workers was first passed by voters, and then swiftly dialed back by the state legislature in Maine last year.
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This is not how a republic works, this is how a dictatorship works.

“We’ve seen this as a concerted, conservative attack on direct democracy,” said Chris Melody Fields Figueredo, the executive director of the Ballot Initiative Strategy Center. “Rather than actually mount a campaign on these issues and convince the public of a position, what we’re really seeing the politicians do is create a web of technicalities and hurdles to make it impossible to qualify for the ballot, or reduce it to a battle of lawyer’s fees.”
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I usually attack conservatives for their positions on social issues. This however rings true. It generally IS conservatives who outright ignore or kill ballot measures passed by their own cosntituency.

Edit: It serves to be said, I believe, Ballot measures are put for a vote because our legislatures -are not working-. They do not pass laws, and when they do, they just litigate forever. The people represented by these politicians spoke directly to them, in some cases, absolutely and unequivocally.

They need to be ousted.
 
Obscurity said:
Direct democracy can't possibly work or else you'd have genocide. I think we can all agree on that. However, the knife cuts both ways. We are after all a republic, representative democracy. We are not a strict democracy, which of course would consume itself.

The issue here is that the majority of voters are being overruled by the people -they elected-. Right now the surge in brashness in legislative bodies is pretty insane.

Where the People's Vote Can Be Negated by Legislators - CityLab

Here's another instance; Measure 22, South Dakota, passed in ballot. The very lawmakers that would be held accountable by the measure voted to repeal it!



This is not how a republic works, this is how a dictatorship works.



I usually attack conservatives for their positions on social issues. This however rings true. It generally IS conservatives who outright ignore or kill ballot measures passed by their own cosntituency.

Edit: It serves to be said, I believe, Ballot measures are put for a vote because our legislatures -are not working-. They do not pass laws, and when they do, they just litigate forever. The people represented by these politicians spoke directly to them, in some cases, absolutely and unequivocally.

They need to be ousted.
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OK, then oust "them" by using the election process. Ballot initiatives, if unable to be overridden or modified by the legislature (or vetoed by the governor), are simply a means of direct democracy.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
OK, then oust "them" by using the election process. Ballot initiatives, if unable to be overridden or modified by the legislature (or vetoed by the governor), are simply a means of direct democracy.
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They're a symptom of a system that doesn't work for the voters. Moreover, you need to realize, these districts are heavily gerrymandered. How can you oust them when the workers pick their bosses?

Additionally, I disagree that these are a direct democracy. They're democratic in nature and are a symptom of a political system that doesn't work, since none of these elected officials actually do their jobs.

The public is literally handcuffed.
 
Obscurity said:
They're a symptom of a system that doesn't work for the voters. Moreover, you need to realize, these districts are heavily gerrymandered. How can you oust them when the workers pick their bosses?

Additionally, I disagree that these are a direct democracy. They're democratic in nature and are a symptom of a political system that doesn't work, since none of these elected officials actually do their jobs.

The public is literally handcuffed.
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You seem to be arguing against direct democracy while supporting ballot initiatives which are direct democracy in action.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
You seem to be arguing against direct democracy while supporting ballot initiatives which are direct democracy in action.
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I am against republicans/democrats gerrymandering districts and ignoring their constituency when it comes to their inability to legislate and refusal to do their jobs.

In these cases the will of the voters says one thing and their elected officials do another. This is by authoritarian ignorance. I wouldn't mind so much if the voters of these states were not routinely ****ed over by the same officials who redistrict to benefit the ruling party.

So, in some ways, I support democracy. I also understand that consensus does not equal correctness. However, when it comes to the voters of an individual state demanding something that the state then simply ignores, I have a big problem.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
You seem to be arguing against direct democracy while supporting ballot initiatives which are direct democracy in action.
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Also, how do you oust people who redistrict to ensure they win the next electoral round?

Please address.
 
Obscurity said:
Also, how do you oust people who redistrict to ensure they win the next electoral round?

Please address.
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By voting for the "wrong" party's candidate in the general election seems to be the only way.
 
Obscurity said:
In Utah and Idaho, G.O.P. Looks to Curb Medicaid Expansions That Voters Approved - The New York Times

Medicaid for all has a high amount of support among all americans. However, it appears the GOP and Republican leadership in two states are willing to ignore the law on ballot measures and ignore their constituency.

This irreverent behavior is beyond acceptable. In both states, the measure to expand Medicaid had massive support and the voters approved the ballot measure and here goes the GOP - strangling democracy.

In an astounding turn of events (Not at all) are willing to ignore the mandate of their constituency to toe their party line.

Of course, the republicons have a history of ignoring ballot measures they dislike (basically, if the ballot measure is not tied to abortion, they ignore it):

Don't Like the Ballot Measure Voters Approved? Just Ignore It, Some Lawmakers Say.


What say ye?
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I would have to agree with you on this measure, with one caveat.
Utah and Idaho should hold public referendums on the subject and then follow with the majority on this.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
By voting for the "wrong" party's candidate in the general election seems to be the only way.
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Do you think it's a good thing for employees to pick their bosses?
 
Buzz62 said:
I would have to agree with you on this measure, with one caveat.
Utah and Idaho should hold public referendums on the subject and then follow with the majority on this.
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It's simply a symptom of a system of stagnation and refusal to represent those who elected you, which, imho, should disqualify you from further service.
 
Obscurity said:
In Utah and Idaho, G.O.P. Looks to Curb Medicaid Expansions That Voters Approved - The New York Times

Medicaid for all has a high amount of support among all americans. However, it appears the GOP and Republican leadership in two states are willing to ignore the law on ballot measures and ignore their constituency.

This irreverent behavior is beyond acceptable. In both states, the measure to expand Medicaid had massive support and the voters approved the ballot measure and here goes the GOP - strangling democracy.

In an astounding turn of events (Not at all) are willing to ignore the mandate of their constituency to toe their party line.

Of course, the republicons have a history of ignoring ballot measures they dislike (basically, if the ballot measure is not tied to abortion, they ignore it):

Don't Like the Ballot Measure Voters Approved? Just Ignore It, Some Lawmakers Say.


What say ye?
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Reminds me of what the GOP did in Michigan when they basically instituted marshal law allowing the governor to throw out elected local officials and replace them with his hand-picked appointments "emergency managers". Then a ballot measure passed to stop that and the GOP just redid it again and started it new while also putting in a measure saying that THIS time this one can't be ovrerturned by ballot measures.

Then of course history unfolds as Governor Snyder appoints his "emergency manger" that handles saving money in Flint, Michigan with tainted water being cheaper than clean water... Voila. Republican authoritarianism at it's finest.
 
poweRob said:
Reminds me of what the GOP did in Michigan when they basically instituted marshal law allowing the governor to throw out elected local officials and replace them with his hand-picked appointments "emergency managers". Then a ballot measure passed to stop that and the GOP just redid it again and started it new while also putting in a measure saying that THIS time this one can't be ovrerturned by ballot measures.

Then of course history unfolds as Governor Snyder appoints his "emergency manger" that handles saving money in Flint, Michigan with tainted water being cheaper than clean water... Voila. Republican authoritarianism at it's finest.
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I am sure the democrats are bad at this as well. I can't find any recent examples. It does seem to be something the GOP is doing specifically.
 
ludin said:
ignoring laws is only valid if you are leftists and don't agree with it.
if you are a conservative and don't agree with laws then you are a criminal.

same old leftist attack hypocritical nonsense which is why no one should take what they say
with any grain of salt.
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Quit crying. This isn't a hypothetical and you aren't the victim that you wish to be.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
I complain about governments that are supposed to represent me. ID and Utah don't represent me, so why am I to be pissed? Why are you to be pissed? Maybe the system is working the way they wanted it to. If it's illegal, they'll work it out, if not, they will still work it out. I trust their voters to do what they're going to do.
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The ballot initiative vote is what they wanted because they voted for it. So clearly you are just talking directly out of your ass becuase party is much more important to you than logic and reason.

You are a con though so it's all about praising and protecting such authoritarian moves.
 
Obscurity said:
It's simply a symptom of a system of stagnation and refusal to represent those who elected you, which, imho, should disqualify you from further service.
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Again we agree.
Politicians need to re-learn what the duty of an "elected official" is.
IMHO...that's one of the reason's Trump is the POTUS now.
 
Buzz62 said:
Again we agree.
Politicians need to re-learn what the duty of an "elected official" is.
IMHO...that's one of the reason's Trump is the POTUS now.
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Of course it is. The hilarious part is that they continue to vote in these clowns. Part of it absolutely is the gerrymandering. I have no idea how it is north for you, but the gerrymandering is absolutely insane down here, on both sides.
 
At a minimum direct democracy to fairly and independently elect your chosen officials should be sacred with no thumbs on the scale. Democrats make up about 30% of the electorate plus 18% independents yet hold 20% of office. Furthermore by simply ignoring ballot initiatives it means that hand picked Republicans run the show however they please with zero accountability to the public. As long as they have an R next to their name they get the position. We're lucky we even got a single Democrat in the house in the midterms.
 
Obscurity said:
Of course it is. The hilarious part is that they continue to vote in these clowns. Part of it absolutely is the gerrymandering. I have no idea how it is north for you, but the gerrymandering is absolutely insane down here, on both sides.
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As far as I know, gerrymandering is not done up here.
Nor do we have dumb crap like Citizens United.
Our federal campaigns are limited to about 12 weeks...I think...

Its terribly boring compared to the American system...but we prefer straight-up politics, and politicians who are not bought and paid for.
 
Buzz62 said:
As far as I know, gerrymandering is not done up here.
Nor do we have dumb crap like Citizens United.
Our federal campaigns are limited to about 12 weeks...I think...

Its terribly boring compared to the American system...but we prefer straight-up politics, and politicians who are not bought and paid for.
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The ****ed up part about this is that both parties gerrymander, but only one tends to vocally support getting money out of politics.
 
Obscurity said:
The ****ed up part about this is that both parties gerrymander, but only one tends to vocally support getting money out of politics.
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Don't fool yourself. Citizens United is loved by all politicians.

Many years ago, I was the IT tech at a Canuck embassy abroad. Something one of the Dips said to me always stuck,
"Buzz, politics is not the business of representing the electorate. Politics is the 'business' of collecting wealth and power to one's self."
 
Obscurity said:
It's simply a symptom of a system of stagnation and refusal to represent those who elected you, which, imho, should disqualify you from further service.
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They get to decide that not you. That's the beauty of a republic.
 
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