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Republicans Ask Democrats To Please Leave Trump's Tax Returns ALONE

pamak said:
Before talking about dishonesty, and stupid people do me a favor and read what I said. Otherwise, the comment about stupidity should apply to those who cannot read.

I did not say that Trump actually made a deal. I talked about PURSUING a deal during the campaign even though he was telling us that he did not have any such aspirations in Russia

Trump Discussed Russia Tower Deal Into Late 2016, Giuliani Says | Fortune

Trump Discussed Russia Tower Deal Into Late 2016, Giuliani Says

Guiliani said it’s his understanding that conversations between Trump and Michael Cohen continued as late as October or November of that year. Cohen admitted in a guilty plea in late 2018 that he spoke with Trump and Russian officials about the potential deal as late as June 2016, after Cohen earlier told Congress it had ended much earlier.

“It’s our understanding that it, that they went on throughout 2016,” Giuliani said of the discussions on NBC’s “Meet the Press” on Sunday. “Can’t be sure of the exact date, but the president can remember having conversations with him about it.”
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Again, why would you think the IRS has any information about a deal that never happened, that never earned Trump a nickel? Why would you want to see Trump's tax records if you are concerned about whether Trump is lying about the Moscow Tower negotiations?
 
Mycroft said:
Again, why would you think the IRS has any information about a deal that never happened, that never earned Trump a nickel? Why would you want to see Trump's tax records if you are concerned about whether Trump is lying about the Moscow Tower negotiations?
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I did not say that the IRS will have information about THIS particular deal which never happened as you said. I mentioned this attempt to make a deal to show that Trump once more was caught lying about his business plans. And while the IRS may indeed have nothing related to this attempt to make a deal, it might have OTHER information about other deals that Trump does not want to reveal. And as I explained before, the IRS only cares about if one follows the tax law and pays the proper taxes. It is not its job to see if there is a conflict of interest or not. Therefore, it does not make sense to count on an IRS audit to reveal information related to potential conflicts of interests. It is like arguing that the Clinton Foundation should not have been pressed to reveal its donor lists because the IRS had not revealed any issues of tax evasion.
 
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pamak said:
I did not say that the IRS will have information about THIS particular deal which never happened as you said. I mentioned this attempt to make a deal to show that Trump once more was caught lying about his business plans. And while the IRS may indeed have nothing related to this attempt to make a deal, it might have OTHER information about other deals that Trump does not want to reveal. And as I explained before, the IRS only cares about if one follows the tax law and pays the proper taxes. It is not its job to see if there is a conflict of interest or not. Therefore, it does not make sense to count on an IRS audit to reveal information related to potential conflicts of interests. it is like arguing that the Clinton Foundation should not have been pressed to reveal its donor lists because the IRS had not revealed any issues of tax evasion.
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So...the only reason you want to see Trump's tax records is because you want to go on a fishing expedition. It doesn't matter that his IRS file is confidential. You want to see it in hopes there is some dirt in there.

You should actually show everyone that there ARE conflicts of interest, provide some evidence and then demand an investigation....instead of demanding an investigation to try to come up with evidence that would support your speculation that there is a conflict of interest. Don't do things bass ackwards.
 
OpportunityCost said:
You need to look at his tax records to make sure he didn't do what you are accusing him of while he was a private citizen. Maybe you need to look up assumption of guilt, you don't seem to understand it.
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What we have from Trump and His Fanboys is consciousness of guilt.

From day one.

Before day one.
 
Republican will come to find out, that "America" is greater than any single persons.... Trump is not a King, he will not be the Tyrant over America, and he won't be designated as "America's Dictator"... not matter how much Republican Lust for this.
It's generally a reveal of the Republican taking up the mentality, motivation and conduct of "The Confederacy", still fighting the Civil War and doing so from without our own United States Congress.

Dignity and Integrity of America is and will be upheld... no matter how much Republican scream and yell. America will not submit itself to Confederacy driven agenda, it did not do it over 155 yrs ago, and its won't do it in this day and time.

"The documents will help identify and outline and presented the determination, on acts and activity of Trump’s investments and sprawling business empire, and expose the muli-layers of conflicts of interest on policies involving tax, regulation, China, Russia and other issues, as well as how he is embedded in being beholding to Russian Oligarchs.." . We can too hope that it goes deeper, and bring to light the conduct of SCOTUS Kennedy's Son's role in Deutsche Bank, and possible reasons why Justice Kennedy ducked out of Dodge, just as the heat started rising. (as if to sell the vacancy on the SCOTUS, as a cover move for his son and himself).

Most of these people talking have no concept of the "value" of what a "SCOTUS" seat is worth. No case is brought before the SCOTUS without review of national financial impact, as well as those of craftiness of malice, uses that same for the sake of "how and what avenue to take for profit" based on decisions being rendered. There is a economic reasons why Republican want to turn the SCOTUS to a Right Wing Court", if fits in the scheme of the Plutocratic Agenda, that has long been the driving force of Republican aims, based in the same concerns about "money" that led and drove the acts of the Confederacy.

It would benefit people to look at history, and then come to understand what the term "Conservative" truly indicates and promotes. It has NEVER been about Fiscal reserve, it has been about "directing monies" to what benefits the agenda of Republican (Confederacy) aspired aims and goals. From the acts of De-Regulation, to promoting States Rights To Supersede Federal Rules, Regulations, Guidelines and Federal Policy.

Many of these comments indicates how short sighting and unaware many of the Posters truly are and how self blinding they are to even being aware of what's in the big picture, as they spin talking about "laws" that have long been contorted by aim and conscience intent to be made to confound for the creations of escape trap doors.

This time around, Democrat's know well the game that have long been played by Republicans, they know of the aims to confound, and they know of the various aims to pursue trap door escape routes.

America is in the period of "great change" to bring back the Country into the hands of the People and to hold elected Representative Accountable, and shut down the "get rich bartering of our governance, sell policy, sell position and be held and controlled by corporate interest and dictates by the wealthy".

Elizabeth Warren has long championed this advance in society, and she has been under constant assault by the powers of corporate influences and money spinners, who detest even the idea that their games are being exposed, and they hate with a passion that she has a plan that will forever, stop the carnage upon and and against the American people, the American Nation and our Banking and Financial Systems.

It's all been a long time coming, but believe the fact that "A Change is Coming".... !!!!
 
Mycroft said:
So...the only reason you want to see Trump's tax records is because you want to go on a fishing expedition. It doesn't matter that his IRS file is confidential. You want to see it in hopes there is some dirt in there.

You should actually show everyone that there ARE conflicts of interest, provide some evidence and then demand an investigation....instead of demanding an investigation to try to come up with evidence that would support your speculation that there is a conflict of interest. Don't do things bass ackwards.
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Transparency is NOT fishing expedition. Nor do I hold Trump to different standards than other politicians. EVERY recent candidate has actually revealed his tax returns.
Yes, the IRS file is confidential and the House can still get it ,and we will see if they can legally reveal this information or not. From what I read in this thread, the issue will be debated legally, but I do not see any reason to prevent the House from obtaining such information. I also support legislation to make mandatory the disclosure of such information.
Presumption of innocence applies only to courts. Voters are not jurors to decide if candidates should be locked in prison, and there is plenty of reason to demand transparency. I hold Trump to the same standards people were holding Clinton when they wanted to get information about the Clinton Foundation's donor list so I am not accepting lame excuses to treat him
 
pamak said:
Transparency is NOT fishing expedition. Nor do I hold Trump to different standards than other politicians. EVERY recent candidate has actually revealed his tax returns.
Yes, the IRS file is confidential and the House can still get it ,and we will see if they can legally reveal this information or not. From what I read in this thread, the issue will be debated legally, but I do not see any reason to prevent the House from obtaining such information. I also support legislation to make mandatory the disclosure of such information.
Presumption of innocence applies only to courts. Voters are not jurors to decide if candidates should be locked in prison, and there is plenty of reason to demand transparency. I hold Trump to the same standards people were holding Clinton when they wanted to get information about the Clinton Foundation's donor list so I am not accepting lame excuses to treat him
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The day our government starts passing laws that disregard a citizen's right to privacy and confidentiality...just because someone in the public wants to know something or wants to examine private records to see if there is any dirt there...is the day our country is truly ****ed.

You seem to think it's okay for our country to be ****ed.
 
I don't spin in the silliness of the Republican led denials and drama antics and the sidline game of people playing as if they are specialist in a system that is conflicted within crafted gaming, with its intent to be confounding. We have the legal scholars who know the truth, and we have precedents and long standing policy, that is sound in the annals of our governance systems.

Republicans have long flaunted their abuse of the system, and became "rabid' when President Obama spoke of the "Change" that is needed, Republican managed to blow smoke and cloud the minds of people during the Obama Administration, but what they did not destroy was the element of people being "awakened"... to the malice and the rigging of the system, which goes all the way back to the days of "white men" claiming the Constitution was "Only" for them, to the vile contortions that led to the malice filled acts that became the atrocity of Slavery, Indenture and Containment of Poor Whites, the Omission of Women in Governance and Omitting women from having the voice of vote, and promoting the long drawn out system of "white nationalistic agenda of white male dominance"...

All such thing are "Fully Exposed" and the people who are aware, those who've become educated and those who have embraced the will, dedication and acts to be and become researcher's are uncovering the "ugly and vile" of what and how a system was so rigged against the American People.

It matters none to me how much Republican wine and cry, spin and throw fits, their "brutality and willful desecration's upon and against our system against the american people and upon and against our governance... IT is exposed, it cannot make blind what people have come to see, and it cannot take away what people have come to know.

People (mainly Republicans) play selective amnesia games, as if they are unaware that when Obama's work brought the Economy off its knees, it did so by putting prohibition on the gaming of the system, when it put controls on the banks, promoted regulatory governance as a core principle upon the financial industry, and challenged the big money fleecing of the people by the Medical and Insurance systems. This infuriated those who have long had control over the nations economy and subjugation s over the people. When Obama said, that we have to be "smart" in how we untangle ourselves from the war's... it sent ripples through the military contractors, and the soldier for fortunate games, which benefitted to the wealthy to the tune of trillions. They launched attacks upon him from every angle. But, THE DEMOCRATIC minds that could not be 'hoodwinked", and would not be sham played into becoming swayed by drama antics, or racial bias divisive gaming were not moved by the madness that has been played out on the society for centuries and decades.
They did not fall for the drama wrapped intimidation and games of trying to confound the masses. They stood strong, they saw within the expanse of the ranks, by the voices of Democrats and the Voices of Independents, who had found ways to awaken those who had long been lulled to sleep, and faded by being confounded within the spins of drama and devise. They are now "AWAKENED"....
 
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Mycroft said:
The day our government starts passing laws that disregard a citizen's right to privacy and confidentiality...just because someone in the public wants to know something or wants to examine private records to see if there is any dirt there...is the day our country is truly ****ed.

You seem to think it's okay for our country to be ****ed.
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Are you now trying to defend freedom or defend the freedom to be corrupt?
Those who want privacy should stay home. Nobody forces anybody to be involved in politics! Politicians should be scrutinized. Transparency helps draining the swamp.
 
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MauiMan said:
"THE SYSTEM IS RIGGED!" — Donald Trump
11:00 AM · Jul 3, 2016 · Twitter for Android
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It is February 11, 2019, some how rhetoric still trumps actual results regardless of context
 
OscarLevant said:
Proportionality, comparison.


That isn't being debated. The question is, how much is enough? Do we really need to spend as much as we do? That is the question.

Increasing military spending and lowering taxes on the rich and corporations is causing defecits to careen out of control

Repubs want to cut back on entitlements. What part of my 92 year old mother's meager $800 per month do you want to cut?

One must look at a broader picture, such as the BEA chart I provided, which paints a different picture than the one you are trying to paint.


You don't know me.

That's ridiculous. I"m all for entrepreneurship and have expressed nothing anywhere to say otherwise. I admire Gates, and Schultz, and self made men ( and women ). but there are a growing number of rich who merely inherit their wealth. I'm against dynasty-ism. Trump is not a self made man.


Wages have been flat for decades, yet the rich's wealth is outpacing inflation and the rich's income are far in excess of inflation. That proves the system is rigged.

I've been self - employed for the last 15 years and most of my life. Don't lecture me on "drive".
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So rather than complain do you have a solution? Do you thinking making rich people poorer makes poor people richer? How does increasing taxes cause poor people to show more initiative, drive and work harder? What exactly prevents a poor person from moving up in class, higher taxes? Does raising income taxes increase taxable income of a poor person? Solutions not more whining and complaining

The role of the U.S. Gov't is to provide for the common defense. Do you have any idea what percentage of the budget is spent on the military? As for tax cuts allowing people to keep more of what they earn has led to record tax revenues for the states and local gov'ts so why is that a problem for you? Deficits aren't caused by tax cuts they are caused by spending increase and in particular social engineering
 
OscarLevant said:
Obama prevented a major financial holocaust, saved the auto industry. Repubs drove America into one huge ditch, and it was so deep it took one helluva struggle to get us out of it. For a financial collapse of that magnitude, there is only one other event that it could be compared to, and that was the crash of 1929, which also took a long time to climb out of. So, after Obama got us out of the gargantuan ditch repubs drove us into, they ( and you ) are what, you are now complaining he didn't get us out of the ditch fast enough, the ditch you guys drove us into in the first place?

So, false comparisons aside, if your dog can do that, it should run for president.
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That certainly is your opinion not backed by anything other than leftwing media and spin. TARP recapitalized the banks and those were loans, taking over GM didn't save the auto industry it saved the GM Unions You are going to continue to believe what the left tells you and ignore history. What is it about liberalism that creates people like you and the state of California, the bluest state of them all a social disaster?
 
pamak said:
Are you trying to defend freedom now or promote the freedom to be corrupt?
Those who want privacy should stay home. Nobody forces them to be involved in politics! Politicians should be scrutinized. Transparency helps draining the swamp.
Click to expand...

You can scrutinize public records...not confidential records. That's why we have a difference in kinds of information. And that applies to every US citizen. A person who wants to be a politician should not have to give up lawful right that YOU enjoy. When you start to demand that some people give up their right to confidential records...and especially, when you demand the government hold different standards about who's records are confidential and who's are not...as I said, we are truly ****ed.
 
MauiMan said:
I know, right? It’s gonna be entertaining. Get the beer and chips ready.
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Maui is one of my favorite places on earth, been there many times and earned the trip there through the capitalism system generated in this country. Found Hawaiians to be very welcoming people but also very dependent having everything provided for them. Without capitalism your state would die as it is dependent on tourism and that comes from people earning and keeping more of what they earn. What is sad is how poorly informed and educated you are regarding the U.S. economy, the Constitution, and lack of basic civics understanding. Trump isn't the problem your education on his authority and power is
 
MauiMan said:
I know! Bush handed Obama a real s*** sandwich! What a mess he made!
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Amazing how the Democratic Congress that took power in January 2007 was incompetent and allowed Bush to destroy the economy OR was it the Democratic Plan to win the WH making that more important than doing their job in Congress?

Obama didn't inherit a **** sandwich he inherited a Democratic Congress, TARP That bailed out the banks, had his stimulus bill passed almost day one and created the worst recovery in the history of the nation spending most of our money bailing out the unions and public servants. What you people do is look at results and claim this was the worst recession since the Great Depression because the results were so bad totally ignoring the Administration that created the policies that led to those results.

Poor leadership and incompetence defines Obama and Hillary so now what you want to do is ignore that and simply attack Trump's tax returns as if they matter.

I am really concerned about the mental health of the 24/7 Trump bashers if Mueller doesn't return the outcome they seem to what which is the total and complete destruction of Donald Trump due to tabloid politics
 
Conservative said:
So rather than complain do you have a solution? Do you thinking making rich people poorer makes poor people richer?
Click to expand...

I just focus on this and the answer is "yes" as long as the system retains some opportunity for profit based on the current system of capitalism See western Europe which has a more socialist form of capitalism with less inequality and less extreme poverty. If the profit margin changes for those in the upper class, it does not mean that their drive will go down. People will continue to compete to beat their competitors or their neighbor. Gates and other innovative people were very inventive when they were not billionaires. Wealth redistribution (often through higher taxes) may not work if too many people flee to other countries and there is a brain drain, but since the US is one of the most hardcore capitalist countries, there is no such danger. Less inequality in the US will not convince business to go to the "socialist" Canada or Europe.
 
RealityNow said:
Republican will come to find out, that "America" is greater than any single persons.... Trump is not a King, he will not be the Tyrant over America, and he won't be designated as "America's Dictator"... not matter how much Republican Lust for this.
It's generally a reveal of the Republican taking up the mentality, motivation and conduct of "The Confederacy", still fighting the Civil War and doing so from without our own United States Congress.

Dignity and Integrity of America is and will be upheld... no matter how much Republican scream and yell. America will not submit itself to Confederacy driven agenda, it did not do it over 155 yrs ago, and its won't do it in this day and time.

"The documents will help identify and outline and presented the determination, on acts and activity of Trump’s investments and sprawling business empire, and expose the muli-layers of conflicts of interest on policies involving tax, regulation, China, Russia and other issues, as well as how he is embedded in being beholding to Russian Oligarchs.." . We can too hope that it goes deeper, and bring to light the conduct of SCOTUS Kennedy's Son's role in Deutsche Bank, and possible reasons why Justice Kennedy ducked out of Dodge, just as the heat started rising. (as if to sell the vacancy on the SCOTUS, as a cover move for his son and himself).

Most of these people talking have no concept of the "value" of what a "SCOTUS" seat is worth. No case is brought before the SCOTUS without review of national financial impact, as well as those of craftiness of malice, uses that same for the sake of "how and what avenue to take for profit" based on decisions being rendered. There is a economic reasons why Republican want to turn the SCOTUS to a Right Wing Court", if fits in the scheme of the Plutocratic Agenda, that has long been the driving force of Republican aims, based in the same concerns about "money" that led and drove the acts of the Confederacy.

It would benefit people to look at history, and then come to understand what the term "Conservative" truly indicates and promotes. It has NEVER been about Fiscal reserve, it has been about "directing monies" to what benefits the agenda of Republican (Confederacy) aspired aims and goals. From the acts of De-Regulation, to promoting States Rights To Supersede Federal Rules, Regulations, Guidelines and Federal Policy.

Many of these comments indicates how short sighting and unaware many of the Posters truly are and how self blinding they are to even being aware of what's in the big picture, as they spin talking about "laws" that have long been contorted by aim and conscience intent to be made to confound for the creations of escape trap doors.

This time around, Democrat's know well the game that have long been played by Republicans, they know of the aims to confound, and they know of the various aims to pursue trap door escape routes.

America is in the period of "great change" to bring back the Country into the hands of the People and to hold elected Representative Accountable, and shut down the "get rich bartering of our governance, sell policy, sell position and be held and controlled by corporate interest and dictates by the wealthy".

Elizabeth Warren has long championed this advance in society, and she has been under constant assault by the powers of corporate influences and money spinners, who detest even the idea that their games are being exposed, and they hate with a passion that she has a plan that will forever, stop the carnage upon and and against the American people, the American Nation and our Banking and Financial Systems.

It's all been a long time coming, but believe the fact that "A Change is Coming".... !!!!
Click to expand...


Elizabeth Warren is a FRAUD, one of the richest women to run for Office and that change you want coming is a change that will destroy the economy that helped her become so rich. I truly feel sorry for young people who have to deal with the mounting march towards socialism and the class envy, jealousy that is being promoted by the radical left. Your novel of fiction just shows how easy it is to indoctrinate some good people and how hard it is to get people like you to look objectively at anyone outside your ideology.
 
pamak said:
I just focus on this and the answer is "yes" as long as the system retains some opportunity for profit based on the current system of capitalism See western Europe which has a more socialist form of capitalism with less inequality and less extreme poverty. If the profit margin changes for those in the upper class, it does not mean that their drive will go down. People will continue to compete to beat their competitors or their neighbor. Gates and other innovative people were very inventive when they were not billionaires. Wealth redistribution (often through higher taxes) may not work if too many people flee to other countries and there is a brain drain, but since the US is one of the most hardcore capitalist countries, there is no such danger. Less inequality in the US will not convince business to go to the "socialist" Canada or Europe.
Click to expand...

Western Europe had the worst recovery from a major recession, why? You want the European economic model here because you don't understand it as the grass is always greener on the other side until you get there. This country has the greatest economy in the world that was created by opportunity and individual wealth creation. Somehow class envy and jealousy came into the mix as if taxing rich people more is the answer to all social problems being generated. How does making a rich person poorer with higher taxes help make a poor person richer?

You pick and choose what you want to believe in Europe. why was their recovery so slow from the so called Great Recession? Your dream of a socialist utopia is probably built on the concept that someone else is supposed to pay for your personal responsibility issues. I learned growing up personal responsibility and that there are consequences for poor choices made and I also learned to celebrate success. Seems like a lost art today with people like you

All I see is whining and complaining from people like you, what is your solution, propose it or stop whining
 
Mycroft said:
You can scrutinize public records...not confidential records. That's why we have a difference in kinds of information. And that applies to every US citizen. A person who wants to be a politician should not have to give up lawful right that YOU enjoy. When you start to demand that some people give up their right to confidential records...and especially, when you demand the government hold different standards about who's records are confidential and who's are not...as I said, we are truly ****ed.
Click to expand...

Apparently, the House can scrutinize such records. It can also create legislation making such information public for politicians seeking an office. The legal system has many cases when a public figure is treated different from casual citizens. In fact, you can FORCE politicians to reveal such information by simply making sure that it is a requirement before they are confirmed by the Senate (see Clinton's confirmation as Secretary of State and the deal about the Clinton Foundation) or by making sure that they do not survive the primaries. If there is a will , there is a way, political or legal to do it and hold them accountable.
 
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Objective Voice said:
How so? They'd be adhering to the law. So, how would doing so here trample on the Constitution?
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We all know that comment "dems don't like the constitution" just one one of the standard dumb deflections right wingers are programmed to throw out when they got nothing.
 
Conservative said:
Western Europe had the worst recovery from a major recession, why? You want the European economic model here because you don't understand it as the grass is always greener on the other side until you get there. This country has the greatest economy in the world that was created by opportunity and individual wealth creation. Somehow class envy and jealousy came into the mix as if taxing rich people more is the answer to all social problems being generated. How does making a rich person poorer with higher taxes help make a poor person richer?

You pick and choose what you want to believe in Europe. why was their recovery so slow from the so called Great Recession? Your dream of a socialist utopia is probably built on the concept that someone else is supposed to pay for your personal responsibility issues. I learned growing up personal responsibility and that there are consequences for poor choices made and I also learned to celebrate success. Seems like a lost art today with people like you

All I see is whining and complaining from people like you, what is your solution, propose it or stop whining
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You move the goalposts starting a conversation which is not relevant to what you asked and by making comments which oversimplify things. You asked if the poor become richer when the rich become poorer. My answer was affirmative and I gave the example of Europe. US always had somewhat higher GDP growth. However, the concentration of wealth at the top means that it is n to easy to make comparisons and say that since the US GDO growth was greater, then things are better in the US. As I said in another thread, a lot depends on what classes you compare. The rich do much better in the US. On the other hand the "poor" do much better in Europe. As for the middle class, it depends: Roughly upper middle class are better in the US while lower middle class is better in Western Europe. There is also a "gray" area where results depend on your lifestyle philosophy. Do you want a somewhat higher earnings but under a more intense work schedule or do you prefer less earning but a paid month of vacation and less on average working hours?
 
pamak said:
Apparently, the House can scrutinize such records. It can also create legislation making such information public for politicians seeking an office. The legal system has many cases when a public figure is treated different from casual citizens. In fact, you can FORCE politicians to reveal such information by simply making sure that it is a requirement before they are confirmed by the Senate (see Clinton's confirmation as Secretary of State and the deal about the Clinton Foundation) or by making sure that they do not survive the primaries. If there is a will , there is a way, political or legal to do it and hold them accountable.
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You do realize there are two branches of Congress, right? Do you understand what the IRS does? Why is it important for you to see someone else's tax returns when the IRS sees them all? Let's see, you want politicians forced to show their tax returns but not their college transcript or birth certificates? What else do you want a politician to show you?
 
pamak said:
You move the goalposts starting a conversation which is not relevant to what you asked and by making comments which oversimplify things. You asked if the poor become richer when the rich become poorer. My answer was affirmative and I gave the example of Europe. US always had somewhat higher GDP growth. However, the concentration of wealth at the top means that it is n to easy to make comparisons and say that since the US GDO growth was greater, then things are better in the US. As I said in another thread, a lot depends on what classes you compare. The superrich do much better in the US. On the other hand the "superior" do much better in Europe. As for the middle class, it depends. Roughly middle to upper middle class are better in the US while Middle to lower middle class is better in Western Europe. There is also a "gray" area where results depend on your lifestyle philosophy. Do you want a somewhat higher earnings but under a more intense work schedule or do you prefer less earning but a paid month of vacation and less on average working hours?
Click to expand...

Somewhat higher GDP growth?? Really? Are you this poorly informed

You don't seem to grasp the concept that we don't have a finite pie and one that keeps growing, why aren't you getting your share? I want earnings to be what people make them not what the gov't tells companies to pay. You look at that is a minimum wage increase whereas I look at it as the maximum that a company has to pay to get an employee. When you start paying the taxes and live by the regulations that companies have to live under then you will have some right to their earnings. Until then you live in that socialist utopia in Europe and I will continue to prosper here.

Still waiting for solutions to the problems since you offer nothing but jealousy and class envy
 
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Conservative said:
Elizabeth Warren is a FRAUD, one of the richest women to run for Office and that change you want coming is a change that will destroy the economy that helped her become so rich. I truly feel sorry for young people who have to deal with the mounting march towards socialism and the class envy, jealousy that is being promoted by the radical left. Your novel of fiction just shows how easy it is to indoctrinate some good people and how hard it is to get people like you to look objectively at anyone outside your ideology.
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I can assure you, that I'm not partial to being led into the madness and vile of Republican so called "Conservative" spin, and I can stand on solid principles that I will not support the continuing of the Right Wing Agenda, and Certainly not the SERF making Ideals of the Right Wing's long engaged and continuing pursuit of pandering to the wealthy to overtake the American people with their plutocratic agenda, while pretending to be about the people. Their heath care aims to "kill off a mass of people" in exemplary of Republican Ideals. The give away of the $1.X Trillion to the wealthy, and the incessant aims to enrich the Military Industrial Complex, not to mention their attacks upon and against the system of "Regulatory Governance"..... and now their aims and acts of attack upon the American system of Justice.... Certainly not the embrace of the Racist Hate Groups who have amassed themselves in full endorsement of Republican Agenda, while their Cult Leader continue by every means to embolden bigots, racist, swindlers, and cycle a band of thieves into the Cabinet of the Administration...

So.... by no means should you waste your time trying to even remotely suggest that I join or support that madness.

As to Elizabeth Warren.. the attack on her is no different than the Attack on Obama... because they want to break down the Plutocratic System that has stripped, ripped and indentured the people by any and every means, and lulled them into self repressive agitation, while the wealthy continue to fleece the nations in their Avarice Heart Driven Madness. See the big difference that you don't grasp is: ... I can think for myself... I don't need an Authoritarian minded Republican system, trying to tell me what to think, and trying to tell people what rights they can and can't have. We've seen 100's of years of that stupidity damage america repeatedly.

As to the word, Socialism... you need to learn more than to use it as a Right Wing Trigger Word.... Every system on earth is a form of faction of social-ism, because humanity is a social system itself.

Let me give it to you again, not that you'd grasp or comprehend or even make effort to understand, but I give you this based on affording the benefit of doubt, that human potential has the ability to comprehend... "The Preamble"
 
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Conservative said:
Somewhat higher GDP growth?? Really? Are you this poorly informed

You don't seem to grasp the concept that we don't have a finite pie and one that keeps growing, why aren't you getting your share? I want earnings to be what people make them not what the gov't tells companies to pay. You look at that is a minimum wage increase whereas I look at it as the maximum that a company has to pay to get an employee. Why you start paying the taxes and live by the regulations that companies have to live under then you will have some right to their earnings. Until then you live in that socialist utopia in Europe and I will continue to prosper here.

Still waiting for solutions to the problems since you offer nothing but jealousy and class envy
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A pie that is growing says nothing without seeing the context. Population is also growing. Also, all else being equal, a country with a younger population (US) will see a higher GDP growth than the same country with an older population. What I see is that it does not make sense to have an INCREASING inequality while it becomes progressively more difficult to compete against emerging new powers in the international field (China) and against the threat of automation which up until now does not seem to replace the jobs that it eliminates with new ones. I live in Silicon Valley and while I am a mechanical engineer and not a computer or software engineer, I have extensive contacts with people in the business because we share a bond as engineers. The biggest threat t I hear from the experts is the progress of artificial intelligence.

This is not like a repetition if the industrial revolution where old jobs were replaced by new ones which even uneducated people could perform in factories. You will get the first glimpse of the consequences when smart cars and trucks will eliminate hundreds of thousands of jobs from taxi drivers to bus and truck drivers. I do not see any point in insisting on a system which continues to feed a tiny minority at the top with about 35% of the pie (and their percentage of the pie is constantly growing) and leave progressively smaller pieces for the rest of the population. It is not sustainable. Also, I do not see earnings as JUST a matter of work or being smart and personal responsible. The way we have constructed our society affects earnings for everybody. This is why we saw bankers who destroyed the global economy bail out with golden parachutes of millions of dollars. This is why some want to make sure that unions are weak i while corporations are getting stronger since such disparity of power has implications in negotiations.

The solutions to the problems are about more equal distribution of the generated wealth, and about different structures of the economy. For example, I have heard computer engineers arguing that one of the possible solutions to the problem of the upcoming unemployment which will come as a result of the AI replacing many workers is to radically reduce the concept of the full working day from 8 hours to 4 hours a day. Of course, such decisions require legislation and a government which will be willing to go against the prevailing business interests.
 
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