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Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Releases Green New Deal Outline

I think it will take an effort from the public and private sector. Businesses won't invest in anything of their own accord, so the question is how can people and government start making the market shift based on what the public demands.

Such has been the age old problem of the socialist since 1945 and renewed in 1989: how to force people to do what the socialist wants, without actually forcing them to do that.
 
If you can't figure out the difference between a socialist party and a socialist state then your intellect is bordering on presidential.

A socialist party that is absolute dictatorship over state functions is, by definition, socialist. A constitution that enshrines the "Fifth Republic of Venezuela" (socialism) and the Bolivarian process of socialism is, by definition socialist. A government whose mission has been since Chavez was elected to create a "Socialism of the 21st century" which drew upon "the indigenous traditions of communal governance and previous Latin America socialist and communist movements, including those of Salvador Allende, Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, the Zapatista Army of National Liberation and the Sandinista National Liberation Front." is, by definition socialist.

It may claim to be qualitatively different than older forms of totalitarian socialism BUT in the end, like they, their ideals of participatory democracy to secure power, education, scientific knowledge about society, and international cooperation has turned into the same old totalitarian socialist model.

Clifton Ross, a life long third world socialist, has written several books on liberationist movements and was a deeply engaged with chronicling the "new socialism" of Venezuela. He, like many of his ilk, sojourned to Venezuela several times his enthusiasm slowly crushed by the reality of yet another socialist regime embracing the dark side.

An early supporter of the Revolution, I decided I needed to start writing and speaking about what I had seen there. In an article I wrote for the radical magazine Counterpunch around that time (2013), I argued that “the so-called ‘Bolivarian Revolution’ is bankrupt: morally, ideologically, and economically,” and I asked what we, as leftist solidarity activists, should do in response. “Should we continue to make excuses for incompetence, corruption, and irresponsibility and thereby make ourselves accomplices?” I asked. “Or should we tell the truth?”

...By then, Venezuela was already in a terrible mess. Many of those I had helped to convince of the possibilities offered by Bolivarian socialism were deeply suspicious of the mainstream media and deserved to hear what was going on from a writer they trusted. But, as it turned out, the people I wanted to reach didn’t want to hear such things. And the people I asked to publish my articles didn’t much want me to write about them either. As a result of my voltafaccia, former comrades and friends contacted my editors and publishers in (occasionally successful) attempts to have my articles spiked. I was denounced and slandered online and in print. Phone calls and emails to people I had thought of as friends now went unanswered. On those occasions when I encountered one of them in public, they looked the other way. Abruptly, I found myself excommunicated, and people I’d known for 30 or 40 years made it clear that they no longer wanted to be part of my life.

Ross writes that he was well aware of what socialism had become in the 20th century, but Chavez seemed to be promising something new. Someone was finally going to offer this "real" socialism that had never quite happened before.

I’d visited Cuba twice—in 1994 and again in 2010—and now, with my experience of Venezuela, I felt I’d seen the best socialism could offer. Not only was that offering pathetically meagre, but it had been disastrously destructive. It became increasingly clear to me that nothing that went under that rubric functioned nearly as well on any level as the system under which I had been fortunate enough to live in the US. Why then, did so many decent people, whose ethics and intelligence and good intentions I greatly respected, continue to insist that the capitalist system needed to be eliminated and replaced with what had historically proven to be the inferior system of socialism?



The synoptic delusion—compounded by immense waste, runaway corruption, and populist authoritarianism—is what led to the mayhem engulfing Venezuela today, just as it explains why socialism is no longer a viable ideology to anyone but the kind of true believer I used to be. For such people, utopian ideologies might bring happiness into their own lives, and even into the lives of those around them who also delight in their dreams and fantasies. But when they gain control over nations and peoples, their harmless dreams become the nightmares of multitudes.

https://quillette.com/2019/02/01/the-bolivarian-god-that-failed/
https://www.cliftonross.com/

I suggest you write Clifton, someone I know personally, and tell him that after a lifetime chasing the socialist dream that he is wrong about socialism in Venezuela. After he gently but firmly pops you air castle denial, get back to us. In the meantime, why don't you visit his websites before we suffer more of your "not a true scotsman" fallacy.
 
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The New Green Steal will destroy the economy.

Quoted for truth.

It's filled with magical Leprechauns riding farting rainbow unicorns across the sky while guaranteeing everything to everyone for free (which isn't really free).

Little more than the fevered imagination of an ill-informed, economically illiterate, inexperienced, hard core socialist / communist.

People who believe that any of this will just magically 'work' as imagined are a clear indication of how far the public education system has fallen from education to liberal / progressive indoctrination.

Also in the news from the new 'fresh faces' (of idiocy) from the Democrat party's House of Representatives:

[h=3]lhan Omar Urges Keith Ellison To Investigate USA Powerlifting For ...[/h]https://dailycaller.com/2019/02/06/ilhan-omar-transgender-powerlifting/
1 day ago - Omar called it a “myth” that men who identify as transgender women ... USA Powerlifting in late January announced that men who identify ... Ellison, a Democrat, was Omar's predecessor in Minnesota's fifth congressional seat, ...

So all you have to do is identify as a woman, and 'poof' the inherent abilities of your biological gender disappear. :roll:

My, how the 'party of science' has fallen, fallen far and low, and ignores science when it is in conflict with their chosen political and social narratives, to which they are slaves and NPCs.

Yes, a clear indication of how far the public education system has fallen from education to liberal / progressive indoctrination.

All in 10 years?


I cant fault her enthusiasm, but I do question her math......seems she will come up trillions short.

News item. There was no math involved in the preparation of that document, nor any of her other so called 'brilliant' 'ideas'.
 
Those are some lofty goals, and not that I disagree with the outcome per se, but how you make all of that happen is the real question. There are a lot of factors here to make something like this work; including how this affects the current energy paradigm. Personally, I think this is something that works best when it's a market driven force rather than mandated exclusively through the government. The challenge is we can't effectively transition from fossil fuels to alternative fuels and provide the same level of output. If we can't do that, it's going to be hard to create the kind of demand that would create a market demand for that type of energy.

Then of course there is the issue of funding, and without a clear plan I can't see myself supporting something like this.

"this is something that works best when it's a market driven force rather than mandated exclusively through the government"

One of the many voices of sanity. Kudos.
 
Why can’t people ever articulate better reasons than “Europe does it” and always without mention of Europe’s mammoth tax rates? And I doubt Spain’s political prisoners would agree with your sentiment.
I wasn't articulating a reason for Ocasio-Cortez's policy, I was explaining why Fenton had done a poor job of linking the policies with authoritarianism. If you would like to explain why you think Europe's tax rates are relevant, feel free. As far as Spain, I assume your talking about Catalan separatists? Given the USA's history of dealing with separatism (e.g. the Civil War), I doubt a similar movement would do any better around here.
 
That might be a step towards universal income, I can't say I agree with this one, but again it's a wide proposal that I agree with 90%. She's looking at this stuff with clear eyes.

Clear eyes and an empty head maybe, but whatever. :roll:

Yes, the US too, can join Venezuela as a Socialist Utopia.
 
You mean those same rich people who pay 90 percent of the total tax burden?
Who told you that? I work for one of the most successful and largest accounting firms in the world, one of my jobs is binding tax returns during the tax season’s. Every year I see the returns of the upper crust including well known public figures. I was collating returns of individuals that you are aware of today. These people do NOT pay taxes. Put down the Kool-Aid.
 
Ban... airplanes, cars, trains (eventually), cows, natural gas, nuclear power...

Ensure... "living wage" for people "unable or unwilling to work", college, a house, "healthy food"... blah blah blah...

I mean, hell, with a free "living wage", free food and a free house what do we need with an education? :roll:

She is b.o.n.k.e.r.s.

Wouldn't need an education. Wouldn't need ambition. Wouldn't need to work. Wouldn't need freedom of expression, speech or thought.
Wouldn't need to do a lot of things.

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'The Deep State can do it for you!'
 
Why is anyone taking this woman seriously?

The leftist media have been fawning over her since she won her unchallenged primary.
This is why all th NPCs have obediently fallen in line behind her, as they've been told to.
 
I guess it's nice that she's shooting for the stars - you have to admire her moxy. But this is totally unrealistic. She's also wasting her time.

She should frame this, hang it on her wall, and say, "OK, what can I realistically do in the next two years to move me toward my goal?"
 
I guess it's nice that she's shooting for the stars - you have to admire her moxy. But this is totally unrealistic. She's also wasting her time.

She should frame this, hang it on her wall, and say, "OK, what can I realistically do in the next two years to move me toward my goal?"

If she wants to start showing some restraint and concern for reality, I'd be happy to take her seriously. At this point, I honestly don't know if she's letting her lack of filter hide her intelligence or if she really doesn't consider her point of view beyond the soundbites we keep getting flooded with.
 
Who told you that? I work for one of the most successful and largest accounting firms in the world, one of my jobs is binding tax returns during the tax season’s. Every year I see the returns of the upper crust including well known public figures. I was collating returns of individuals that you are aware of today. These people do NOT pay taxes. Put down the Kool-Aid.

Some no doubt don't because of existing tax laws, many of which were passed in Democratic Administrations. But I would be a good steak dinner that at least since President Trump has been at the helm, most or all of them are engaged in activity that encourages, facilitates, or enables a lot of other people to pay a lot of taxes. That is the difference between macroeconomics that the government should be focused on rather than microeconomics that the government should not be involved in at all.
 
If she wants to start showing some restraint and concern for reality, I'd be happy to take her seriously. At this point, I honestly don't know if she's letting her lack of filter hide her intelligence or if she really doesn't consider her point of view beyond the soundbites we keep getting flooded with.

Notice how the presidential candidates on the left jump right aboard this mindless bandwagon because they lack the courage to call this plan what it really is--childish and dumb.
 
Welcome to the new age of politics, everybody:

Although it's just an outline it's a huge step forward to move the conversation in the right direction. Yes there are some problems, but I agree with about 90% of this proposal and if all you do is nit-pick it, then I assume you agree with 90% of it too! :mrgreen:



Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Releases Green New Deal Outline


If she just gets some of this passed and conventional thinking says she just might pull it off. She'll be on equal playing field with the President of the United States in terms of legislative deals. Trump's comprehensive tax reform plan is the only thing even remotely comparable to this that he's done or thought of.

Gosh. That's odd. She didn't mention the need to cut the military in half, and confiscate privately-owned gasoline automobiles. Wonder why she left that section out.
 
Notice how the presidential candidates on the left jump right aboard this mindless bandwagon because they lack the courage to call this plan what it really is--childish and dumb.

Promising free stuff usually doesn't go over too badly in an election. Also, the left is pretty sure they have an easy win in 2020, so they are going with the further left candidates. They better hope they don't end up going too far putting up someone as crazy as Clinton or it will be another close fight, no matter how many independents Trump offends.
 
The New Green Steal will destroy the economy.

The current Republican Energy policies will destroy the World!
/
 
How are people gonna pay for an electric car when they are forced to do so?
 
The current Republican Energy policies will destroy the World!
/

That's what the politicians want you to think. The affect of energy on the environment is not what is gonna take down this world.
 
How are people gonna pay for an electric car when they are forced to do so?

Didn't you read the whole thing? Everyone is going to have a spiffy new job that pays enough for all comforts.
 
Why is anyone taking this woman seriously?

Because she is cute! If she was ugly nobody would pay attention.

She's like the Dems version of Sarah Palin. I doubt we will be talking about her much longer after somebody finds a black face picture of her.
 
Didn't you read the whole thing? Everyone is going to have a spiffy new job that pays enough for all comforts.

I just read a "diary" on another site and it seems that AOC's proposal doesn't go far enough. Their idea is that the GND is more about influencing demand where the real emphasis needs to be on ceasing production. The diarist doesn't offer any specifics but it seems that nothing less than elimination of all fossil fuels will be acceptable.
 
I like things just the way they are!
 
Some no doubt don't because of existing tax laws, many of which were passed in Democratic Administrations. But I would be a good steak dinner that at least since President Trump has been at the helm, most or all of them are engaged in activity that encourages, facilitates, or enables a lot of other people to pay a lot of taxes. That is the difference between macroeconomics that the government should be focused on rather than microeconomics that the government should not be involved in at all.
Oh you would be so so wrong. I really wish I wasn’t bound by client confidentiality. The myths and perceptions that people like yourself parrot, I would love to confont you with reality.
 
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