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Thread: Trump says he ‘never said’ Mexico would pay for the wall. But he did – a lot

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    Re: Trump says he ‘never said’ Mexico would pay for the wall. But he did – a lot

    The point is that Mexico not paying for the wall shouldn't be a showstopper for the wall. The wall needs to be built. The debate on how to get Mexico to pay for it can be deferred for later.

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    Re: Trump says he ‘never said’ Mexico would pay for the wall. But he did – a lot

    I agree completely with what you're saying. It's really what's missing from the entire discussion.

    I think immigration has been a huge benefit to this country possibly in part because I'm a second generation American - my grandparents were born in Italy - and live in an extremely diverse part of the country. And in being completely honest I have a lot of sympathy for illegal immigrants - there are a fair number here and two of my son's closest friend were initially here illegally from El Salvador (though they are now legal).

    Though the flip side of that is that we also have some MS13 types here as well - three purported MS13 members, of high school age, were arrested just last week for stabbing another high school kid in a brawl. So yes we need to control our borders and we need a sane immigration policy. I just haven't seen evidence that spending all that money on a wall will help with that. I'd think it needs to be combination approach with fencing in some areas, surveillance in others and more border agents. More importantly I think we need to do a better job of keeping track of people of overstay their visas and checking cargo and trucks that come into the country.

    And finally I think our immigration process needs to be overhauled. A personal story that shows just how broken the system is. I have a contractor, from India, who works for me. The man has a unique skillset that is hard to come by - I know because I've tried hiring citizens to do the job he does but 6 months of looking our HR department found no one qualified. Anyway I'm working to make him a full time employee. That would require us to take over his green card process which my company doesn't like to do because it's a huge pain in the ass. I finally convinced HR that we should so we're in the process of making the guy a job offer. In taking over his green card process I found out he's been working towards getting a green card since 2011 and, according to my HR contact, given the speed of the immigration process he probably still has another 2-3 years before he can become a permanent resident. That puts the time at a decade or a little more. That's a long time for someone to exist in limbo.
    Last edited by Gaius46; 01-12-19 at 09:23 AM.
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    Re: Trump says he ‘never said’ Mexico would pay for the wall. But he did – a lot

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It's not only a cost/benefit analysis situation it's a matter of accurate problem definition. Is the problem really how foreign nationals are entering or remaining in the country without permission (illegally) or why they are doing so?

    I think that we need to focus on the why aspect of illegal immigration which is primarily for our employment opportunity, public services, birthright citizenship and social programs. So long as these are available to all residents and not limited to legal residents then the illegal inflow will continue.

    I don't think you can change the why. People have been coming here for 200 years to make better lives for themselves. You can't change that. Even if you denied them public services etc people would still come here and find a way to survive because here for a lot of them would still be far better than wherever they came from.

    It would be better to recognize that and recognize that we need them as well - we're at near full employment and there is still a large market for the cheap labor that illegals provide - and come up with a saner immigration policy.
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    Re: Trump says he ‘never said’ Mexico would pay for the wall. But he did – a lot

    Quote Originally Posted by sanman View Post
    The point is that Mexico not paying for the wall shouldn't be a showstopper for the wall. The wall needs to be built. The debate on how to get Mexico to pay for it can be deferred for later.
    While you wrote, the wall needs to be built, there are highly meritorious conclusions that the wall is an ineffectual, expensive project, that wasn't the result of a thought-out analysis. It was created to be a cheer-line at campaign rallies. It's merely a simplistic 'solution' to a complex problem. As others have already written, most undocumented aliens enter via plane, boat, or the northern border and overstay their visa.

    Brushing off Trump's promise that Mexico would pay for the wall as unimportant, dismisses those campaign event attendees as pawns. Trump yelled, "who's going to pay for the wall" and they yell back, "MEXICO!" Now, you say that isn't important, which is an admission that it was merely a cynical campaign ploy and prop, that doesn't matter after it propelled him into office.

    The fact that not even Republicans in the House and Senate put the wall into the budget over the last two years, should tell you something.




    This thread isn't a discussion of whether there is value in the wall, a position that most Americans reject. It's about Trump's denial now that he even said Mexico would pay for the wall.

    Wolf Blitzer on Twitter

    @wolfblitzer
    20h20 hours ago

    At a Republican presidential debate in 2016, I asked @realDonaldTrump: "If you don't get an actual check from the Mexican government for $8 billion or $10 billion or $12 billion, whatever it will cost, how are you going to make them pay for the wall?" Here's his response:

    <See Video>
    Last edited by MTAtech; 01-12-19 at 09:44 AM.
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    Re: Trump says he ‘never said’ Mexico would pay for the wall. But he did – a lot

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    I don't think you can change the why. People have been coming here for 200 years to make better lives for themselves. You can't change that. Even if you denied them public services etc people would still come here and find a way to survive because here for a lot of them would still be far better than wherever they came from.

    It would be better to recognize that and recognize that we need them as well - we're at near full employment and there is still a large market for the cheap labor that illegals provide - and come up with a saner immigration policy.
    You are ignoring the elephant in the room - illegal immigrants don't dare complain about low pay, other labor law violations or unsafe/unsanitary working conditions. What we can change is allowing US employers to deduct 100% of the cost of using illegal immigrant labor from their federal income tax liability. Mandate universal E-Verify and change the federal income tax code such that that only direct labor costs associated with (W-2 and 1099) labor which also has a current E-Verify certification can be deducted.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Trump says he ‘never said’ Mexico would pay for the wall. But he did – a lot

    Quote Originally Posted by SLC View Post
    Each illegal immigrant is a net loss to the American tax payer. Fewer illegal aliens equals less loss to the tax payer. Fewer people receiving government benefits equal less money the government has to spend on entitlements.
    You might benefit from reading "Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States" as well as the documents it links to rather than simply chanting mantras.

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    Re: Trump says he ‘never said’ Mexico would pay for the wall. But he did – a lot

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Either way, it's wrong to assert that illegals cannot get an ID for work and pay taxes. A dairy farmer near me was audited and his work crew was mostly 'illegals' because that's who would do the work. He was paying them cash for services. The IRS didn't really care (it's not their job to care) about the immigration status of the workers, but did ding him for not paying payroll taxes and withholding, and required him to get ITINs for his workers and file back returns for them, including SS and Medicare, and to comply with employment laws going forward. The point is to put employers of 'illegals' on the same tax footing as those who employ legal workers with regard to payroll taxes, etc.
    Another "fun" thing that the IRS can do is to simply disallow the "expense" and deem that all of the claimed money was personal income so that the employer has to pay income tax on it themselves.

    A few -very well publicized - cases where the employer has to pay income tax on several hundreds of thousands of dollars that they never actually had, will smarten up those who attempt to evade/avoid the law.

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    Re: Trump says he ‘never said’ Mexico would pay for the wall. But he did – a lot

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    That's not really what we were discussing.

    I have no problem with my tax $ going to effective border security.

    There's little evidence that this wall is such.
    Did you see "Test of steel prototype for border wall showed it could be sawed through"?

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    Re: Trump says he ‘never said’ Mexico would pay for the wall. But he did – a lot

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You are ignoring the elephant in the room - illegal immigrants don't dare complain about low pay, other labor law violations or unsafe/unsanitary working conditions. What we can change is allowing US employers to deduct 100% of the cost of using illegal immigrant labor from their federal income tax liability. Mandate universal E-Verify and change the federal income tax code such that that only direct labor costs associated with (W-2 and 1099) labor which also has a current E-Verify certification can be deducted.
    That's a good idea.

    You do realize that E-Verify is currently not operating because of the shutdown, don't you?

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    Re: Trump says he ‘never said’ Mexico would pay for the wall. But he did – a lot

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Didnt say walls dont work. You should try to read better. I've written much more about solutions here but there are so many threads on it that I'm tired of repeating it.

    Did they teach you anything about cost/benefit analysis in the military?
    Absolutely. The wall, fence, or barrier are extremely cost effective. Once built it will do its job for decades if not centuries or until it is no longer needed. Just about every time industry, the military, or countries need security or to keep people in or out the wall, fence, or other physical barrier is always the first solution. I went to the AO Smith Water Heater factory and because of the crime in Juarez. Guess what? A nice concrete wall encircling the factory, parking lot, and grounds. Why? Because the wall was cheaper than manpower without a wall. This is common knowledge all over the world and the reason millions if not billions of walls are erected and are currently being built. They are cost effective and work otherwise they would not be built and in use all over the world.
    We are the Democrats. Resistance is Futile.

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