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Trump vows 'very long' government shutdown over border wall

gdgyva said:
Show me a bill that passed the house and senate with 20b for the wall....not some generic fundind that can be changed or rerouted...it doesn’t exist....

If it did, Trump would have signed it, even if it meant giving dreamers a path to citizenship....he wants it that bad

So...I am from Missouri....show me....what is/ was the bill number?
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Why don't you call the White House and ask Trump to 'show you' those notes he confiscated from the translator from his secret meetings with Putin he clearly doesn't want Americans to see ?
 
gdgyva said:
Then I guess we will have a closed government for two years

And I guess elections can kill the stalemate

I wonder how many of the 800k are willing to wait that long?
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Trump has time. The Democrats don't. The longer the government stays shut down, the more people will begin to realize they don't need many of these agencies.
 
Birdzeye said:
And what’s “irrelevant?”

Trump’s holding 800K federal employees’ pay hostage is just morally bankrupt. There is simply no need to do that. Fund the agencies and keep on squabbling about trump’s precious wall.
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Trump has no authority to write a budget bill. Only the House can do that. The House must produce a budget bill that is acceptable to the Senate and to Trump. See Articles I and II of the Constitution of the United States.
 
Logician Man said:
You mean like Trump 'duping' his base, err 'speculating' that Mexico would pay for his imaginary wall that will never be built ? :lol:
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In the back of your mind (whether you want to admit it to yourself or not), your hoping that Trump will give up this "vanity project" and just support a bill to open the Government. I'm merely telling you that the probability of him giving up on this is low.
 
Into the Night said:
Neither does he have to. Trump has time, the Democrats don't.
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//// Trump has time///// He damn well better hurry before those Big Macs take their toll on the morbidly obese Chowhound-in-Chief! :2razz:
 
Into the Night said:
What a crybaby attitude. You don't have any idea what is in the Constitution or why we even HAVE a Constitution, do you?
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Ye I do. I also know that the Constitution gives the House all power over spending. The President does not.
 
Hedgology said:
In the back of your mind (whether you want to admit it to yourself or not), your hoping that Trump will give up this "vanity project" and just support a bill to open the Government. I'm merely telling you that the probability of him giving up on this is low.
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/// In the back of your mind //// Thank you Carnac. :lamo:lamo:lamo
 
Logician Man said:
Trump owns the shutdown. He said so himself to the American people on national tv with Pelosi and Schumer in his office. Correct ?
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He also said why he is shutting it down, and the conditions for reopening it again. The House must pass an acceptable budget bill.
 
Into the Night said:
Trump has no authority to write a budget bill. Only the House can do that. The House must produce a budget bill that is acceptable to the Senate and to Trump. See Articles I and II of the Constitution of the United States.
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The budget bills that both Houses already passed gave Trump the full amount for border security that Trump requested in his budget for 2018. $1.6 Billion. It was not until Trump lost the midterms that he suddenly increased his demands and offered nothing in return. His demands are unreasonable and he knows it.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/23/politics/trump-budget-border-security/index.html
 
uptower said:
I don't think we're looking at the constitution and seeing the same things.
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You are not looking at the Constitution at all.
uptower said:
It's very easy to get semantic and say 'Nope that's not specifically written in there' but a lot isn't, that's why there are constitutional lawyers.
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It is specifically written in there. Constitutional lawyers do not define the Constitution.
uptower said:
Every time I read these articles it strikes me just how much Trump is avoiding or undermining his duties.
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You've never read them.
uptower said:
Once again I see a wide gulf between the spirit of the president's prescribed duties and his actual performance. By refusing to accept what is the will of the people (because it's so easy to pretend that polls are fake news) he is derelict. The nation and the govt to not exist to keep the president happy or give him what he wants. I would expect him to heed what the people demand, and not just the 30% who support him.
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Argument from randU. You are using made up numbers again.
uptower said:
And since he promised to shut down the govt if he didn't get what he wanted and then went ahead and did so, it's on him.
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Just as he said. He shut down the government because the House will not pass an acceptable budget bill. When the House finally decides to do their duty, Trump can reopen the government.
uptower said:
Not those representatives of the majority (see 2018 election results) who don't see the benefit in accommodating his pet project. After all the wall is not the only or even most efficient way to improve border security.
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Argument from randU fallacy. You are again using made up numbers. Trump is still president. He doesn't have to sign anything. He can veto a bill for any reason, regardless of the 'will of the people'. Remember, the United States is not a democracy. It is a federated republic. We have constitutions.
 
Birdzeye said:
Yup, trump has quite a track record of breaking promises. His holding federal employees hostage is one of the most despicable things he’s done so far as POTUS. His GOP enablers are equally despicable.
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You are manufacturing 'broken promises'. Trump made no secret in his campaign that he was going to build the wall.
 
gdgyva said:
It’s a nice try....it really is

But hostages doesn’t really fit

And This is just beginning....that is what so many don’t understand

This will be a really long shutdown....because neither side CAN give in....

So buckle up kiddies...and I hope you have a nice savings account....**** is gonna get tough in a lot of places
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And the rest of the country buys popcorn and munches on it while they work and watch the show.
 
Birdzeye said:
Trump has not even attempted to negotiate.
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He is negotiating right now. You just don't like the way negotiations are going.
Birdzeye said:
It’s all gimmee gimmee gimmee, my way or the highway,
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His demands are simple and cheap. It is Pelosi and Chucky that is being demanding here.
Birdzeye said:
and I’ll make 800K federal employees suffer if I don’t get my way unconditionally.
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He also said why he is shutting down the government. Pelosi and the House have yet to pass an acceptable budget bill.
Birdzeye said:
He’s a bully.
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Inversion fallacy. It is Pelosi and Chucky that are the bullies here.
Birdzeye said:
Appeasing bullies is always a bad idea, because they inevitably come back and play the same sick game.
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Which is why Trump is going to budge on this. He's not going to let Pelosi be a bully anymore.
Birdzeye said:
Pelosi is right to stand up to him.
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She caused him to shut down the government.
Birdzeye said:
If she capitulates, he’ll pull the same crap all over again in a year’s time, if not sooner.
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Veto power isn't crap.
Birdzeye said:
The day he leaves office will be a good day for America.
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What he is doing IS good for America. He is putting people like Pelosi in her place. He is also demonstrating quite effectively just how little we need a lot of these government agencies.
 
Logician Man said:
//// and so we have this game of chicken ///// which Trump, by his very own proclamation made on national TV to the American people, OWNS.
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Yup. He took responsibility for shutting down the government. He has stated his conditions for opening it. Pass an acceptable budget bill.
 
Into the Night said:
Argument from randU fallacy. You are again using made up numbers. Trump is still president. He doesn't have to sign anything. He can veto a bill for any reason, regardless of the 'will of the people'. Remember, the United States is not a democracy. It is a federated republic. We have constitutions.
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Those are the conditions for a dictatorship. Like it or not the president is accountable to the citizenry and if he had a brain cell or two he'd do what's best for the country not what is best only for him.

As for numbers Pew also polls 58% against him.
 
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Birdzeye said:
Not irrelevant and you just used the appeal to popularity tactic yourself. And don’t you have any reasoned arguments instead of looking up the list of logical fallacies that you can cite, with no other argument?
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Hedgology is quite correct. You are making an appeal to popularity fallacy. The United States is not a democracy. We are a federated republic. We have constitutions. Democracies don't. Appealing to popularity means nothing in this situation. Trump has veto power. He is using it.

Get the House to pass an acceptable budget and the government can reopen.
 
uptower said:
It is not 'nonsensical' to heed the will of the people.
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Argument from randU fallacy. Trump is not even required to listen to the will of the people until his re-election.
uptower said:
Bear in mind it is only what his people wanted him to do and he had the last two years and didn't even try.
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He was busy renegotiating bad NAFTA treaties, unwinding your precious ObamaCare, and dealing with twit leaders in nations like North Korea. Now it's time to deal with the wall.
uptower said:
They didn't even have win more votes in the election,
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Yes he did.. He was elected. That is the only way to win an election.
uptower said:
just a fortunate majority in congress and they should have used that opportunity then.
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He didn't have a clear majority in the Senate. Congress was unable to present an acceptable budget to him, so he shut it down. Now it's a new Congress. The onus is on the House now to pass an acceptable budget.
uptower said:
Now with the rebuke of the midterms and the result is a new House or Representatives it is fair to say even fewer people want Trump to do what he purportedly set out to.
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Irrelevant. He doesn't need to listen to the will of the people until his re-election.
uptower said:
Hell he doesn't even have enough votes in both houses - one of which his party still controls, so it seems pretty clear what the will of the people here is now.
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The House has not presented an acceptable budget bill for even the Senate to accept. They know that Trump will only veto unacceptable bill..
uptower said:
I think we all know he's just making a stink now because he needs to deflect from his mounting legal woes.
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What mounting legal woes?
 
gdgyva said:
Trump has stated what he wants...5b plus for his wall

Is there any offer from Pelosi or Schumer? Any offer, no matter how crazy? Nope...

Now why would that be? One side has stated in no uncertain terms exactly what they want....why wouldn’t the other side come back with a counter offer?

Makes one wonder why this shut down is still on going, and no negotiations are taking place
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Because Pelosi is being a bully.
 
Into the Night said:
What mounting legal woes?
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The president is under investigation and it's getting to him. Read his twitter feed: he spends a good deal of time moaning about it.


Into the Night said:
Hedgology is quite correct. You are making an appeal to popularity fallacy. The United States is not a democracy. We are a federated republic. We have constitutions. Democracies don't. Appealing to popularity means nothing in this situation. Trump has veto power. He is using it.

Get the House to pass an acceptable budget and the government can reopen.
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An appeal to popularity fallacy is more like the ones that go, "I hear people saying..." or "Everybody knows..." or somn other disconnect where those polled have been misinformed.

Pointing out that elected representatives, expressing the will of the majority do not support Trump's wall is very different. It's more than just a popularity contest. He promised a wall off the cuff in the campaign, and has chosen now, finally when he doesn't really have the power to make it happen, to put his foot down over it. Most people are against it and the numbers actually mean something here.

The electorate, having seen no serious studies or compelling argument for his wall, remains unconvinced. Their representatives in the house and senate have therefore put forward no significant funding for the wall.

Only the president and his faction want it. So we have a situation where, after being rebuked by the people, the president is demanding something of the country for himself. Is that the intention of the constitution, really?

Well North Korea calls itself a Republic as well.
 
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gdgyva said:
Show me a bill that passed the house and senate with 20b for the wall....not some generic fundind that can be changed or rerouted...it doesn’t exist....

If it did, Trump would have signed it, even if it meant giving dreamers a path to citizenship....he wants it that bad

So...I am from Missouri....show me....what is/ was the bill number?
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Did you bother to read my link? The Dems made the offer during a meeting, and trump rejected it. Duh.
 
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