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Trump vows 'very long' government shutdown over border wall

Hedgology said:
Your expectations are ridiculous and nonsensical. The only thing that matters is what people voted for him to do.
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People did not vote for him to build a stupid wall. Hell, he didn’t even get the most votes, and polls show a majority oppose the wall.
 
Birdzeye said:
People did not vote for him to build a stupid wall.
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You're mistaken. Trump campaigned on a wall. When the American electorate voted for Donald Trump, they literally voted for him to erect a wall.

Hell, he didn’t even get the most votes, and polls show a majority oppose the wall.
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Irrelevant and an illogical appeal to popularity.
 
Birdzeye said:
Yup, trump has quite a track record of breaking promises. His holding federal employees hostage is one of the most despicable things he’s done so far as POTUS. His GOP enablers are equally despicable.
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It’s a nice try....it really is

But hostages doesn’t really fit

And This is just beginning....that is what so many don’t understand

This will be a really long shutdown....because neither side CAN give in....

So buckle up kiddies...and I hope you have a nice savings account....**** is gonna get tough in a lot of places
 
gdgyva said:
And he will keep it shut down until the house and senate pass a bill with wall funding included

He has zero obligation to sign anything else

Since the majority of the federal workers are democrats, and the unions are democratically controlled....maybe Pelosi and Schumer can find something they want to trade for Trumps wall....

But right now, they don’t want to negotiate....and he doesn’t have to

And so we have this game of chicken....
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Trump has not even attempted to negotiate. It’s all gimmee gimmee gimmee, my way or the highway, and I’ll make 800K federal employees suffer if I don’t get my way unconditionally.

He’s a bully. Appeasing bullies is always a bad idea, because they inevitably come back and play the same sick game. Pelosi is right to stand up to him. If she capitulates, he’ll pull the same crap all over again in a year’s time, if not sooner.

The day he leaves office will be a good day for America.
 
gdgyva said:
And he will keep it shut down until the house and senate pass a bill with wall funding included

He has zero obligation to sign anything else

Since the majority of the federal workers are democrats, and the unions are democratically controlled....maybe Pelosi and Schumer can find something they want to trade for Trumps wall....

But right now, they don’t want to negotiate....and he doesn’t have to

And so we have this game of chicken....
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//// and so we have this game of chicken ///// which Trump, by his very own proclamation made on national TV to the American people, OWNS.
 
Hedgology said:
You're mistaken. Trump campaigned on a wall. When the American electorate voted for Donald Trump, they literally voted for him to erect a wall.



Irrelevant and an illogical appeal to popularity.
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Not irrelevant and you just used the appeal to popularity tactic yourself. And don’t you have any reasoned arguments instead of looking up the list of logical fallacies that you can cite, with no other argument?
 
Hedgology said:
Your expectations are ridiculous and nonsensical. The only thing that matters is what people voted for him to do.
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It is not 'nonsensical' to heed the will of the people. Bear in mind it is only what his people wanted him to do and he had the last two years and didn't even try. They didn't even have win more votes in the election, just a fortunate majority in congress and they should have used that opportunity then. Now with the rebuke of the midterms and the result is a new House or Representatives it is fair to say even fewer people want Trump to do what he purportedly set out to.

Hell he doesn't even have enough votes in both houses - one of which his party still controls, so it seems pretty clear what the will of the people here is now.

I think we all know he's just making a stink now because he needs to deflect from his mounting legal woes.
 
Birdzeye said:
Not irrelevant and you just used the appeal to popularity tactic yourself. And don’t you have any reasoned arguments instead of looking up the list of logical fallacies that you can cite, with no other argument?
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Dude doesn't even understand how ratios/percentages work.....arguing with these types is a complete waste of time.
 
Birdzeye said:
Trump has not even attempted to negotiate. It’s all gimmee gimmee gimmee, my way or the highway, and I’ll make 800K federal employees suffer if I don’t get my way unconditionally.

He’s a bully. Appeasing bullies is always a bad idea, because they inevitably come back and play the same sick game. Pelosi is right to stand up to him. If she capitulates, he’ll pull the same crap all over again in a year’s time, if not sooner.

The day he leaves office will be a good day for America.
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Trump has stated what he wants...5b plus for his wall

Is there any offer from Pelosi or Schumer? Any offer, no matter how crazy? Nope...

Now why would that be? One side has stated in no uncertain terms exactly what they want....why wouldn’t the other side come back with a counter offer?

Makes one wonder why this shut down is still on going, and no negotiations are taking place
 
uptower said:
It is not 'nonsensical' to heed the will of the people. Bear in mind it is only what his people wanted him to do and he had the last two years and didn't even try. They didn't even have win more votes in the election, just a fortunate majority in congress and they should have used that opportunity then. Now with the rebuke of the midterms and the result is a new House or Representatives it is fair to say even fewer people want Trump to do what he purportedly set out to.

Hell he doesn't even have enough votes in both houses - one of which his party still controls, so it seems pretty clear what the will of the people here is now.

I think we all know he's just making a stink now because he needs to deflect from his mounting legal woes.
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^^^^ This
 
Birdzeye said:
Not irrelevant and you just used the appeal to popularity tactic yourself.
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Again, you're mistaken. Trump had a better plan for border security; so he got the job. That is not the same thing as saying, "Trump had a better plan for border security because more people agree."

Think of it like a job interview. It's not designed for the most likable person to get the position (although, likeability certainly does help).

And don’t you have any reasoned arguments instead of looking up the list of logical fallacies that you can cite, with no other argument?
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What are you talking about? I've already stated that your expectations what you believe a President should do is meaningless. What matters more (or, at least what should matter more) is how a President responds to the needs of its constituents.

Trump campaigned on a wall; you're going to get a wall. There is nothing complicated about that premise.
 
Hedgology said:
Again, you're mistaken. Trump had a better plan for border security; so he got the job. That is not the same thing as saying, "Trump had a better plan for border security because more people agree."

Think of it like a job interview. It's not designed for the most likable person to get the position (although, likeability certainly does help).



What are you talking about? I've already stated that your expectations what you believe a President should do is meaningless. What matters more (or, at least what should matter more) is how a President responds to the needs of its constituents.

Trump campaigned on a wall; you're going to get a wall. There is nothing complicated about that premise.
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Trump's 'plan' stated/promised Mexico would pay for the Wall... How's that broken promise working out for POTUS? :lol:
 
Logician Man said:
//// and so we have this game of chicken ///// which Trump, by his very own proclamation made on national TV to the American people, OWNS.
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You think that matters now to the families with no paychecks coming in? You think it will matter two months from now?

How long do you think the dems winning is going to matter to those people?

Especially if they have relatives that have lost jobs or wages to illegals?

This is a LONG game....not for the faint of heart....blaming Trump is fine....and will work short term....

That may not do so well long term....just saying
 
uptower said:
It is not 'nonsensical' to heed the will of the people. Bear in mind it is only what his people wanted him to do and he had the last two years and didn't even try. They didn't even have win more votes in the election, just a fortunate majority in congress and they should have used that opportunity then. Now with the rebuke of the midterms and the result is a new House or Representatives it is fair to say even fewer people want Trump to do what he purportedly set out to.
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You're not really saying anything meaningful there. The last President lose the House and the Senate by the largest margins in decades over the passage of ACA, which no one wanted.

We still have ACA, and it's relatively popular. As long as the President is in power, he gets to set the agenda. You are incorrectly implying that a backlash against Congress and a backlash against the President are the same thing. They're not.

Hell he doesn't even have enough votes in both houses - one of which his party still controls, so it seems pretty clear what the will of the people here is now.

I think we all know he's just making a stink now because he needs to deflect from his mounting legal woes.
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That is your opinion.
 
gdgyva said:
You think that matters now to the families with no paychecks coming in? You think it will matter two months from now?

How long do you think the dems winning is going to matter to those people?

Especially if they have relatives that have lost jobs or wages to illegals?

This is a LONG game....not for the faint of heart....blaming Trump is fine....and will work short term....

That may not do so well long term....just saying
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I feel for these people. Some of these people are my friends and family. That said, Trump claimed ownership of the shutdown, correct ?
 
Hedgology said:
We still have ACA, and it's relatively popular. As long as the President is in power, he gets to set the agenda. You are incorrectly implying that a backlash against Congress and a backlash against the President are the same thing. They're not.
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It has been widely reported - and was at the time - that the president's poor approval rating had a large impact on his party losing so many seats. People voted against him this time round as much as his party, one of the reasons he cannot muster the power to get his wall laid down and instead has to resort scare tactics and manufactured crises.

That and the last few revelations and leaks about the Russia probe have got him seething over Fox news and a bucket of chicken while he tweets like a jilted schoolgirl.
 
Logician Man said:
Stop the lying would be a good start, don't ya think ? (over 7000 since taking office )
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You just discovered that politicians lie, too? Did someone break the bad news about Santa Claus this holiday season?

Aside from that, I'm not really sure what your argument is. Would your support for a wall be any different if Mexico did pay for it?
 
Hedgology said:
You just discovered that politicians lie, too? Did someone break the bad news about Santa Claus this holiday season?

Aside from that, I'm not really sure what your argument is. Would your support for a wall be any different if Mexico did pay for it?
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I'll be happy to address your question after you address mine. ( debating 101 )
 
uptower said:
It has been widely reported - and was at the time - that the president's poor approval rating had a large impact on his party losing so many seats.
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Poor approval rating? Relatively to what? Trump started out with a poor approval rating. The fact thta his approval rating hasn't dipped below 42% says something. Not about Trump, but everyone else.

People voted against him this time round as much as his party, one of the reasons he cannot muster the power to get his wall laid down and instead has to resort scare tactics and manufactured crises.
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Hundreders of thousands of people are apprenhed at the border every year. Nothing manufactrered about it. It's a real thing that really happens and affects real people.

That and the last few revelations and leaks about the Russia probe have got him seething over Fox news and a bucket of chicken while he tweets like a jilted schoolgirl.
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Yeah, any day now, you'll collect the smoking gun, right?
 
Logician Man said:
I'll be happy to address your question after you address mine. ( debating 101 )
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I have already addressed your question; I knowledge that politicians lie. If you'd like to pretend Donald Trump told the first lie in American politics, then I don't know how to address that...
 
Hedgology said:
I have already addressed your question; I knowledge that politicians lie. If you'd like to pretend Donald Trump told the first lie in American politics, then I don't know how to address that...
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Are you trying to say you 'acknowledge' Trump lied ?
 
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