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[W:108:129]Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

trouble13 said:
Your post shows you lack a basic understanding of the bakers position.

He serves gays and trans at his shop. What he refuses to do is create products that celebrate things that are contradictory to his beliefs.

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That would require him to be able to reliably read in the first place, to understand that.
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
You said it was a religious belief... what part of the Bible talks about transgendered people at all?

...and odd or not I could care less... people can get a cake for any ****ing reason that they want to...
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Alright, so lets hypothesis for a second and yes this may be a bit out there but stay with me.

So if I were go to California with a male friend, both of us register as members of the Nazi party and both of us get engaged to one another. Then go to a Jewish owned bakery, ordering a cake that would not only commemorate the holocaust, but also celebrate our wedding. Seeing as we are also planning on holding the wedding on the same day that the holocaust started.

Should we be able to sue if the bakery denies us and or kicks us out?
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
The baker should ask what the Swastica is for... if it is for a Nazi rally then yes, as hate speech is illegal... if it is for a buddhist occasion then no, they could not refuse it.
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Illegal how? and if the swastika is for you as a connection to your political affiliation, that issues more problems. Seeing as someone's political lean is protected by law in states like California.

Hate speech itself is probably one of the most subjective things I've ever seen in my lifetime and there is still no real legal standard to my knowledge for barring speech. Even if it would eve be considered "hate" speech.
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
A baker should not be forced to bake a cake with pornography...
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Forced???

There are ones that specialize in such a thing. Hell my sister got one for her bachelorette party from Publix.
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
You are just making stuff up and obviously have no idea how restaurants and bakeries operate. I do. I worked in them for decades.
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Apparently learning nothing with all of that experience.

If you walk into a Subway and ordered a hot dog. They are under no obligation to make, nor serve you that hotdog and you have no right to sue them if they don't do as you ask.
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Oborosen said:
Alright, so lets hypothesis for a second and yes this may be a bit out there but stay with me.

So if I were go to California with a male friend, both of us register as members of the Nazi party and both of us get engaged to one another. Then go to a Jewish owned bakery, ordering a cake that would not only commemorate the holocaust, but also celebrate our wedding. Seeing as we are also planning on holding the wedding on the same day that the holocaust started.

Should we be able to sue if the bakery denies us and or kicks us out?
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Gay people are not murdering millions... trying to make an analogy to the Holocaust is always a bad idea.
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Oborosen said:
Apparently learning nothing with all of that experience.

If you walk into a Subway and ordered a hot dog. They are under no obligation to make, nor serve you that hotdog and you have no right to sue them if they don't do as you ask.
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If you want to start tossing around insults I am fine with that... but your basic failure in logic shall suffice for now.

Subway does not make hotdogs... a baker bakes cakes and frosts them with themes.
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Oborosen said:
Forced???

There are ones that specialize in such a thing. Hell my sister got one for her bachelorette party from Publix.
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A "normal" baker... does that help you understand the difference. Context of generalizations... it is important.
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Oborosen said:
Illegal how? and if the swastika is for you as a connection to your political affiliation, that issues more problems. Seeing as someone's political lean is protected by law in states like California.

Hate speech itself is probably one of the most subjective things I've ever seen in my lifetime and there is still no real legal standard to my knowledge for barring speech. Even if it would eve be considered "hate" speech.
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The Swastica is not a political lean... it is either a symbol of hate (as in this case) or one of peace (buddhists).
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
Eco just likes to imagine that I am an obtuse guy...
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It is so easy to get conditioned to expect certain behavior from another, that it is hard to pull back from that when there is an area of agreement. I've been in that situation many times. :)
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
Gay people are not murdering millions... trying to make an analogy to the Holocaust is always a bad idea.
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Don't run away and answer the question. I didn't come here to listen to you whine about context and at least give a better answer than a simple deflection.

Yes, or no. Should we be able to sue if they deny us?
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
If you want to start tossing around insults I am fine with that... but your basic failure in logic shall suffice for now.

Subway does not make hotdogs... a baker bakes cakes and frosts them with themes.
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Now you're on the right track. Though as a point I was not tossing an insult. You simply opened the door me to stick my foot in and proved that you lack the ability to slam it on said foot.

They do make cakes, the most likely have a set catalog of cakes that they make as well and I bet that this baker has no cakes that are dolled up for either a gay wedding, or a transition celebration, correct?

So demanding that they make you a cake, in which they don't actually make themselves wouldn't actually be in your scope of the argument. Do you understand now?
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
A "normal" baker... does that help you understand the difference. Context of generalizations... it is important.
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So they can't be forced to make a cake with genitals on them, but a cake celebrating someone's transition, or their gay wedding. Sure go ahead and force them to make that all you want?
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
The Swastica is not a political lean... it is either a symbol of hate (as in this case) or one of peace (buddhists).
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Still not illegal, therefor there is nothing that keeps them from having to make said cake in your stance.

Also the swastika is a symbol of the Nazi party on a whole. Which is a political group (despite how small it is) is still protected by law in several states.
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
:lol: Refusing to make something is refusing service... who the **** you trying to fool with that idiotic post anyway? LOL
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If a gay person walks into Burger King and orders a Big Mac and the cashier tells the person "I'm sorry, but we don't make burgers that way... but you are welcome to purchase any of the burgers we offer on our menu", has Burger King just refused service to that person and violated public accommodation laws?

Jack Phillips doesn't create custom, specialty cakes for an event celebrating a person's sex change, no matter who the person is that wants him to do so.

.
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
Subway does not make hotdogs... a baker bakes cakes and frosts them with themes.
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... and Jack Phillips doesn't create customized specialty cakes for events that he finds morally objectionable.

.
 
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Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Oborosen said:
Don't run away and answer the question. I didn't come here to listen to you whine about context and at least give a better answer than a simple deflection.

Yes, or no. Should we be able to sue if they deny us?
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It is not a black and white issue... again, context. Sorry... :shrug:
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Oborosen said:
Now you're on the right track. Though as a point I was not tossing an insult. You simply opened the door me to stick my foot in and proved that you lack the ability to slam it on said foot.

They do make cakes, the most likely have a set catalog of cakes that they make as well and I bet that this baker has no cakes that are dolled up for either a gay wedding, or a transition celebration, correct?

So demanding that they make you a cake, in which they don't actually make themselves wouldn't actually be in your scope of the argument. Do you understand now?
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Does the baker baker wedding cakes? Yes.

Did the baker refuse service to people seeking a wedding cake? Yes.

Hmmm....
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Oborosen said:
So they can't be forced to make a cake with genitals on them, but a cake celebrating someone's transition, or their gay wedding. Sure go ahead and force them to make that all you want?
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Yes...
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Oborosen said:
Still not illegal, therefor there is nothing that keeps them from having to make said cake in your stance.

Also the swastika is a symbol of the Nazi party on a whole. Which is a political group (despite how small it is) is still protected by law in several states.
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Nazi's do not own the swastica...
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Grim17 said:
If a gay person walks into Burger King and orders a Big Mac and the cashier tells the person "I'm sorry, but we don't make burgers that way... but you are welcome to purchase any of the burgers we offer on our menu", has Burger King just refused service to that person and violated public accommodation laws?

Jack Phillips doesn't create custom, specialty cakes for an event celebrating a person's sex change, no matter who the person is that wants him to do so.

.
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:lol: His website says... "Custom designs are his specialty"

Look... it looks like WHOOOOSH! is in order here.... you clearly are not getting the bad analogy's that you are tossing out.
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
It is not a black and white issue... again, context. Sorry... :shrug:
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Great, running away from a simple, hypothetical question.

This is what you've willingly reduced yourself to.
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
Does the baker baker wedding cakes? Yes.

Did the baker refuse service to people seeking a wedding cake? Yes.

Hmmm....
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No he didn't refuse service, even though he still won that case, because it was considered an attack on his own freedoms.

This case however, is on the grounds that a transgendered woman asked for a cake that was going to celebrate their transition. Which will most likely be thrown out given the circumstances.
 
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Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
Yes...
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Your justification for this being?

What's stopping me from suing a bakery that doesn't make me that stylish, vagina cake for my brothers bachelor party?
 
Re: Colorado baker back in court after refusing to make cake celebrating gender transition

Bodhisattva said:
Nazi's do not own the swastica...
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It is a symbol that is still more than closely associated with them enough to count as "their" symbol. However the fact still stands that it's still not illegal.

What keeps them from being sued if they don't make this swastika cake?
 
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