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So The NRA DID Fall For The Russian Cutie!

jet57 said:
Answer: the weakness of the right is exactly what made the NRA a target; the far right is a national security risk because they will hale anybody with a gun in their hand and open doors that should stay closed as in this case. And this gal is obviously very important to the Kremlin because Putin has taken an American hostage in order to get her back. The harm is that Russia "picked" the Republicans as the US's weak link to being in Trump and gain access to our people in national security issues.

So I would spend more time thinking about the US instead of your personal morality wars.
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Well said. The NRA was seen as a huge Trump ally and Russia was backing Trump all they could. It puts the NRA into bed with Putin and the Russians and no doubt that thought would shock and mortify most NRA members.
 
jet57 said:
And this gal is obviously very important to the Kremlin because Putin has taken an American hostage in order to get her back.
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Is she valuable or to prevent her from further talking or to punish her?
 
jet57 said:
Answer: the weakness of the right is exactly what made the NRA a target; the far right is a national security risk because they will hale anybody with a gun in their hand and open doors that should stay closed as in this case. And this gal is obviously very important to the Kremlin because Putin has taken an American hostage in order to get her back. The harm is that Russia "picked" the Republicans as the US's weak link to being in Trump and gain access to our people in national security issues.

So I would spend more time thinking about the US instead of your personal morality wars.
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Uh huh, uh huh...that's a lot of speechifying there but no where did you demonstrate any harm being done.
 
Fishking said:
Uh huh, uh huh...that's a lot of speechifying there but no where did you demonstrate any harm being done.
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And that's a lot of denial of fact in order to protect ignorance.
 
jet57 said:
And that's a lot of denial of fact in order to protect ignorance.
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Nope....not at all. I asked for someone to tell me the actual damage being done. You failed at that. Did the NRA change in any way? Is Russia going to make them more pro-gun or w/e?
 
jet57 said:
You don't get out much -

https://www.vox.com/2018/7/19/17581354/maria-butina-russia-nra-trump
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"Much of Butina’s alleged conduct seems to have involved socializing and attending US political events, which may not seem all that dastardly."

Super scary.

"Now, the government alleges that Butina was carrying out a plan to influence American politics on behalf of a Russian government official (Torshin). The plan, they say, was to try to influence the Republican Party to be friendlier to Russia, by way of the NRA."

Oh man...the evilness of trying to improve relations between countries. You really showed me some horrible dangerous stuff here. You're right...we should definitely keep diving back into the Cold War because that's always been good for the world.
 
haymarket said:
This is NOT a matter of definition but a matter of perception. You cannot write a definition for me of what constitutes FAR RIGHT or FAR LEFT in my mind that I will accept as valid and correct because you do not perceive the situation the way I do.
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Since when have I been attempting to define "Far Right" in your mind?

I have been asking you to tell me what YOU mean by "Far Right".

So far you haven't done that. In fact you haven't even tried.

haymarket said:
Just like I cannot write a definition for you of what constitutes FAR RIGHT or FAR LEFT in your mind that you will accept as valid and correct because you do not perceive the situation the way I do.
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Since when have I been asking you to write MY definition of "Far Right".

What I have been asking you to do is to provide me with YOUR definition of "Far Right".

This you have consistently refused to do.

haymarket said:
You and I most likely sit far apart on the political continuum regarding certain issues. To put it simply: we see things differently because of who and what and where we are.
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So what?

haymarket said:
That is just the way perception works.
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So what?

haymarket said:
Yours is not right and mine is not wrong nor is it the reverse. Its just a matter of perception.
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So what?

haymarket said:
The evidence I provided identified the NRA as FAR RIGHT. And for me the evidence was very very convincing and I accept their judgment. That is all that is necessary.
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OK, have you accidentally told me that YOUR definition of "Far Right" is "Far Right is whatever someone else tells me it is."?

haymarket said:
If you do not accept it as convincing, that is fine since it is your own perception and not mine.
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I never once questioned that whatever evidence you had had convinced you.

haymarket said:
Once upon a time - in my adult lifetime - Republicans used to support and vote for gun control measures which including restricting and outlawing of certain guns. Even though the GOP was considered as conservative , they still could belong and call themselves conservatives like Reagan was. Today, the NRA with their extreme positions as laid out in the previously submitted evidence, does not allow for politicians to support banning guns and that puts them further to the right than simply conservatives like Reagan and others. That makes them FAR RIGHT on the continuum.
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Now that is strange because I happen to agree with (almost) all of one half of the NRA (or any "PRO-Gun Nut") position on "Gun Control" (read as "BAN - Guns") and also with (almost) none of the other half of the NRA position on "Gun Control" (read as "MORE Guns Is GOODER").

Surprisingly I happen to agree with (almost) all of one half of the "Anti-Gun Nut" position on "Gun Control (read as "some people simply can't be trusted to have guns" and also with (almost) none of the other half of the "Anti-Gun Nut" position on "Gun Control" (read as "LESS Guns is GOODER").

haymarket said:
Again - you don't like that analysis? Fine with me. It makes no difference to me if you accept it or not.
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It isn't the analysis - it's the LABEL.
 
iguanaman said:
I guess you would have to ask Putin about what his goal was. The good news is that without Russian money the NRA is broke and losing members.

https://www.axios.com/nra-loses-money-membership-dues-trump-guns-6b7d8514-5691-445f-9ff9-182630aab9f0.html
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Someone once asked the head of the American Communist Party how he felt about the FBI "infiltrating" agents into the ACP.

His response what that he liked it just fine because they could always tell who they were.

When asked how the FBI agents could be identified so easily, his response was "Because they always pay their dues in full and on time.".
 
Fishking said:
Sorry, your link didn't demonstrate any harm. It also didn't say what you tried to make it say. Money is down because membership dues is down.
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So your take on Russian spies infiltrating American organizations and political parties is bring it on then. You do know that it violates our laws don't you? I do expect their will be indictments for NRA money laundering and their "redirecting" foreign money into Trumps campaign. Putin is not happy about his "Red Sparrow" agreeing to cooperate with Mueller either. He has already arranged a patsy for a possible swap. I don't think that will fly with our people though. The optics are just terrible for swapping a confessed Russian operative for a American tourist. I would not put it past Trump to try and push it thru though. But like his Syrian "withdrawal" I expect our intelligence agencies to tell him to shove it just like the military did with leaving the Kurds high and dry in Syria. Thankfully Trump is incapable of inspiring anything like loyalty or respect in our career officials who actually do the work of keeping us safe.
 
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Fishking said:
"Much of Butina’s alleged conduct seems to have involved socializing and attending US political events, which may not seem all that dastardly."

Super scary.

"Now, the government alleges that Butina was carrying out a plan to influence American politics on behalf of a Russian government official (Torshin). The plan, they say, was to try to influence the Republican Party to be friendlier to Russia, by way of the NRA."

Oh man...the evilness of trying to improve relations between countries. You really showed me some horrible dangerous stuff here. You're right...we should definitely keep diving back into the Cold War because that's always been good for the world.
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So then she was arrested for jay walking and only copped a guilty plea to get along with US prosecutors and improve the quality of her vacation...

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/12/why-maria-butinas-guilty-plea-should-make-the-nra-nervous
 
iguanaman said:
So your take on Russian spies infiltrating American organizations and political parties is bring it on then. You do know that it violates our laws don't you? I do expect their will be indictments for NRA money laundering and their "redirecting" foreign money into Trumps campaign. Putin is not happy about his "Red Sparrow" agreeing to cooperate with Mueller either. He has already arranged a patsy for a possible swap. I don't think that will fly with our people though. The optics are just terrible for swapping a confessed Russian operative for a American tourist. I would not put it past Trump to try and push it thru though. But like his Syrian "withdrawal" I expect our intelligence agencies to tell him to shove it just like the military did with leaving the Kurds high and dry in Syria. Thankfully Trump is incapable of inspiring anything like loyalty or respect in our career officials who actually do the work of keeping us safe.
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Ah...so the idea is that the NRA funneled Russian money to Trump, is it? Well, if that was proven I'd say that was definitely something to deal with.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Since when have I been attempting to define "Far Right" in your mind?

I have been asking you to tell me what YOU mean by "Far Right".
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That is a distinction without a difference. The matter has been thoroughly taken care of.

You keep repeating the same nonsense and now you add more nonsense with your silly "so what?" which says nothing other than you reject what I have said. Fine with me as your opinion makes no difference and does not change the reality that I have supported my claims with evidence.
 
haymarket said:
That is a distinction without a difference. The matter has been thoroughly taken care of.
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Would you please explain, in coherent English, how you NOT answering a simple question is the same thing as that question having been thoroughly taken care of?

haymarket said:
You keep repeating the same nonsense and now you add more nonsense with your silly "so what?" which says nothing other than you reject what I have said. Fine with me as your opinion makes no difference and does not change the reality that I have supported my claims with evidence.
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What you have established so far is:


  1. According to YOUR definition of "Far Right" (which has not been provided) you believe that the NRA is a "Far Right" organization.
  2. You base YOUR belief on someone else's statement that the NRA is "Far Right".
  3. The third party, upon whom you foot your belief, uses THEIR definition of "Far Right" (which has not been provided) in determining that the NRA is a "Far Right" organization.
  4. The pith and substance of your argument in support of your belief that the NRA is a "Far Right" organization is "Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is ...".
  5. You are either
    • incapable of providing YOUR definition of "Far Right" because you
      1. simply don't have one or
      2. are unable to articulate one or
    • unwilling to provide YOUR definition of "Far Right" because you feel that it will make you look like a fool.

Please note that I have not the least doubt that you think that the NRA is a "Far Right" organization, what I have no idea of is what you think a "Far Right" organization is.

If you were to tell me over and over and over and over that "A Snark is a Boojum." I would not doubt that you actually believed that a Snark WAS a Boojum - but I still wouldn't know what you thought a Boojum was. I could agree with you that "A Snark is a Snark" even without knowing what a Boojum was, and I could probably agree with you that a Boojum and a Piffybottle were the same thing (once I knew what you thought a Snark was and found that you definition of "Snark" and my definition of "Piffybottle" were the same) so that I could agree that your "A Snark is a Boojum" and my "A Snark is a Piffybottle" actually meant the same thing.

However, if you won't provide YOUR definition of YOUR term, there is no way that I can tell if we agree or not - is there?

PS - Your "That is a distinction without a difference." makes as much sense as saying that the difference between "I beat you to a pulp." and "You beat me to a pulp." is a "distinction without a difference".
 
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TU Curmudgeon said:
Please note that I have not the least doubt that you think that the NRA is a "Far Right" organization, what I have no idea of is what you think a "Far Right" organization is.
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Sure you do - its the NRA and I gave you evidence to support that statement.... lots of evidence.

However, if you won't provide YOUR definition of YOUR term, there is no way that I can tell if we agree or not - is there?
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I don't care if you agree or not.


Every little thing you have tried to say has already been answered and refuted. All you are doing is digging the same hole deeper and deeper. Tell you what - I am in the mood for mu shu pork - when you hit China pick up an order for me.
 
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haymarket said:
That is a distinction without a difference. The matter has been thoroughly taken care of.

You keep repeating the same nonsense and now you add more nonsense with your silly "so what?" which says nothing other than you reject what I have said. Fine with me as your opinion makes no difference and does not change the reality that I have supported my claims with evidence.
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Post where "far right" is defined?
 
Fishking said:
Still no evidence of harm. Like...what do you see as the damage being done here?
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Are you disputing that the Russian woman - Butina - pleaded guilty to the commission of a crime?
 
haymarket said:
Are you disputing that the Russian woman - Butina - pleaded guilty to the commission of a crime?
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Nope...I'm just asking what harm was done, or harm you think could've been done here. Smoking a joint is a crime as well, and it's no harm there, either.
 
Fishking said:
Nope...I'm just asking what harm was done, or harm you think could've been done here. Smoking a joint is a crime as well, and it's no harm there, either.
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The over all harm that was done by the Russian interference in our election was the hijacking of a sacred American process that is suppose to belong to the American people resulting in the installation of a president whose very legitimacy and loyalties are a serious issue.
 
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