• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Sen. Lindsey Graham says he'll introduce legislation to end birthright citizenship

All persons born in the USA are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. That is no "qualifier" which renders the gift of citizenship revocable but a simple reality. What the radical right wing is doing with this is beyond disgusting and is another sign that they inhabit a different reality - one bordering on willful mental delusion - than the vast majority of Americans

Nobody is talking about revoking citizenship.

Under the 14, there are two qualifiers: being born in the USA and being subject to the juristiction of the USA.

When the 14th was ratified, Indians were excluded from juristiction. Over the next several decades, juristiction was gradually extended by Congress.
 
Per my response, couple post earlier. Ratified in 1868 WAS THAT THE INTENT.... the way it is written is a loophole to the benefit.... If we went to the framers and asked...you ok with Illegals sneaking in giving birth and now the child is a US citizen... they would be ....Oh yeah thats all good? Intent and how the SCOTUS will interpret that intent......I think we may just see a favorable EO.... Bama Got away with DACA..... in pertaining to illegals..... why not Trump when its actually justified?

Interesting argument but let me pose a question- if we went to the slave owning Framers and asked- you cool with blacks having equal rights as the white elite- they would be down for that? How about women being allowed to vote or hold property in their own name? Gay men being able to marry and have the same legal rights as hetro couples??? :confused:

Hell, some of the key Framers wanted voting rights tied to property- don't own = don't vote

DACA doesn't ask the simple wording of an amendment be re-interpreted in today's politics- it simply held minors shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of others... if the minor could prove a life well lived to be an acceptable citizen they should be given the chance to become a citizen. DACA doesn't change an amendment.

I find the flip flop of conservatives interesting. How many times did the 'Constitutionalists' demand a literal reading of our Constitution when it came to race rights, gender rights, a woman's right to her own body, same sex marriage... the courts attempting to bring the Constitution up to date with today's more complex world were decried as unelected lawyers in robes legislating from the bench.

But now it's ok... wadda country... :peace
 
Nobody is talking about revoking citizenship.

Under the 14, there are two qualifiers: being born in the USA and being subject to the juristiction of the USA.

When the 14th was ratified, Indians were excluded from juristiction. Over the next several decades, juristiction was gradually extended by Congress.

If I go to Japan as a tourist for a few weeks, does the nation of Japan have jurisdiction over me and any actions I may engage in while there?

perhaps this will help

ju·ris·dic·tion
/ˌjo͝orəsˈdikSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
the official power to make legal decisions and judgments.
"federal courts had no jurisdiction over the case"
synonyms: authority, control, power, dominion, rule, administration, command, sway, leadership, sovereignty, hegemony
"an area under French jurisdiction"
the extent of the power to make legal decisions and judgments.
"the claim will be within the jurisdiction of the industrial tribunal"
a system of law courts; a judicature.
plural noun: jurisdictions
"in some jurisdictions there is a mandatory death sentence for murder"
 
The 14th Amendment was originally intended as a means to give former slaves and their descendants citizenship.

After the Civil war and freeing of the slaves, the Democrats continued to make life very difficult for the blacks by not honoring the benefits of US citizenship. This essentially was a back door way to maintain slavery as a default option for the blacks. The 14th Amendment was added by Republicans to assure that the full rights of citizenship was in affect to help with the transition.

In the original wording, the 14th Amendment specifically did not allow people under foreign jurisdiction, such as children of diplomats to become citizens; dual citizenships. Illegal aliens come under the same category since they are still formally connected to their countries of origin. In fact, the 14th Amendment did not apply to indigenous peoples since they were under their own independent tribal jurisdictions. It was Ted Kennedy and Liberal lawyers, in the 1960's, who changed the convention without any formal change to the Constitution. Judge Kavanaugh owes the Democrats a poke in the eye for their hateful games.The Democrats need to learn to be polite or else all their lawyer scams will come to end.
 
Bazinga!!!

Others claim the 14th Amendment does not support the anchor baby schemes.
Just for reference, this is what the 14th Amendment says about it: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

You have to really stretch that to make it mean the opposite of what it explicitly says.

The hypocrisy of conservatives here is stunning. Apparently changing the constitution via executive order is okay now, as long as it's Trump trying to screw over immigrants. Even if one doesn't agree that the 14th Amendment guarantees birthright citizenship -- though 150 years of history and precedent shows they're wrong -- stripping millions of their citizenship is utter cruelty and solves none of our immigration problems.

This was floated not as a proposal but as a distraction. A distraction with the intent of having voters talk about immigration instead of the fact that Republicans have unpopular policy positions: Cut taxes on the rich; pay for it by cutting Medicare and Social Security and throwing 30 million people off of health insurance -- all while taking away preexisting coverage protection.
 
On one hand, my feeling is that we don't need to argue every stupid thing that comes out of Trump's mouth. On the other hand Trump's stupid idea has (not surprisingly) jumped into the Republican mainstream, which I suppose is helpful in reminding everybody what's at stake during the midterms.

Why is Trump’s idea stupid?
 
All persons born in the USA are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. That is no "qualifier" which renders the gift of citizenship revocable but a simple reality. What the radical right wing is doing with this is beyond disgusting and is another sign that they inhabit a different reality - one bordering on willful mental delusion - than the vast majority of Americans

ROTFLOL... it seems your motto is:

...when you cannot debate... berate...

...LOL...
 
If I go to Japan as a tourist for a few weeks, does the nation of Japan have jurisdiction over me and any actions I may engage in while there?

perhaps this will help

C’mon Baby... let’s do the twist...
C’mon Baaay-beh... let’s do the twist...
 
Yeah, he's gonna need a few more Kavanaughs to pull that one off.

:roll:

Yeah, this is what you think when you hate a guy just because, and don't care in the slightest what his actual judicial record is.

Meanwhile, everybody who's against Trump on this should be happy Trump has been appointing originalists, textualists, and strict-constructionists to the bench.
 
ROTFLOL... it seems your motto is:

...when you cannot debate... berate...

...LOL...

Your reply makes no sense on any level as a rational response to the post from me you posted and were pretending to be replying to.
 
C’mon Baby... let’s do the twist...
C’mon Baaay-beh... let’s do the twist...

see post 85 - and multiply it times a factor of TEN.
 
All persons born in the USA are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. That is no "qualifier" which renders the gift of citizenship revocable but a simple reality. What the radical right wing is doing with this is beyond disgusting and is another sign that they inhabit a different reality - one bordering on willful mental delusion - than the vast majority of Americans

You can pass a law revoking citizenship for any reason, including things like illegal immigration, birth tourism, and anchor babies.

Additionally, 8 US Code 1401 is what actually codifies all the reasons one gains citizenship.

Its quite similar to the law proposed by Harry Reid in 1993
Reid introduced the Immigration Stabilization Act of 1993, a bill that would have, among other things, revoked birthright citizenship. Section 1001, entitled "Basis of Citizenship Clarified," said, in effect, that children born in United States to parents who are illegal immigrants would not become U.S. citizens.

And just in case there was any confusion about the matter, a press release that Reid's office issued a day later states that the bill "clarifies that a person born in the United States to an alien mother who is not a lawful resident is not a U.S. citizen." This clarification would have eliminated the "incentive for pregnant alien women to enter the United States illegally, often at risk to mother and child, for the purpose of acquiring citizenship for the child and accompanying federal financial benefits," said Reid.

Reid encouraged other lawmakers to consider and vote for the bill in a Senate floor speech on September 20, 1993. "While other legislation has been introduced in this session of Congress to address some of the most egregious abuses of our immigration laws, this legislation is the only one that institutes comprehensive reform to the entire process" Reid said. He reiterated his arguments for increased immigration controls in an August 10, 1994, op-ed piece published in the Los Angeles Times. Comparing the United States to a table that is "becoming overcrowded," Reid wrote that "unless changes are made, our dinner table eventually will collapse, and no one will have security and opportunity."
 
Last edited:
So can we play the "Interpretation" Game

14th Amendment was Ratified 07/25/1868

WELL before the issue of illegal immigrants sneaking in, Well before the welfare systems, land scarcity and development and goods and service.

With the "INTENT" during 1868 the likelihood and definition WAS defined exactly. ALL PERSONS BORN in the USA are US Citizens.

Again lets address the CURRENT CONSIDERATION and why its a topic? The abuse and loophole use to have an ILLEGAL Give birth to a child in the us to circumvent immigration law. in 1868 we likely did NOT have this issue, why? Because likely Immigrants were not ILLEGALLY abusing the system to do so, NOR was our concern of vetting, overpopulation, crime and even devaluing our democracy. HELL Likley immigrants actually respected the law, and applied or went through legal channels.......

Fast forward to 2018 we have 7000+ rushing to our borders, likely hundreds sneaking in now, and likely illegal immigrants giving brith in our country to children that fall under the 14th amendment.

WAS by INTENT what the 14th amendment created for?..... HIGHLY doubt it...

What a bunch of BS. There have always been immigrants both legal and otherwise.

You don't think that their were Mexicans coming across the border before the civil war?

How about Chinese getting off boats In San Francisco?

To think the fourteenth was written without taking into consideration of open borders on all sides is disingenuous at best...
 
You can pass a law revoking citizenship for any reason, including things like illegal immigration, birth tourism, and anchor babies.

Additionally, 8 US Code 1401 is what actually codifies all the reasons one gains citizenship.

Its quite similar to the law proposed by Harry Reid in 1993,

The only way you can change the Constitution is to amend the Constitution.
 
Really? How can one argue what ALL PERSONS BORN IN THE USA ARE CITIZENS OF THE USA mean?

The debate is over the words "subject to the jurisdiction thereof."
 
The debate is over the words "subject to the jurisdiction thereof."

So lets talk about that then. If I go to Japan as a tourist for a few weeks, does the nation of Japan have jurisdiction over me and any actions I may engage in while there?

perhaps this will help

ju·ris·dic·tion
/ˌjo͝orəsˈdikSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
the official power to make legal decisions and judgments.
"federal courts had no jurisdiction over the case"
synonyms: authority, control, power, dominion, rule, administration, command, sway, leadership, sovereignty, hegemony
"an area under French jurisdiction"
the extent of the power to make legal decisions and judgments.
"the claim will be within the jurisdiction of the industrial tribunal"
a system of law courts; a judicature.
plural noun: jurisdictions
"in some jurisdictions there is a mandatory death sentence for murder"
 
Whatever the solution to this is, it is not an executive order. Even if Trump can do that - and I don't think he can - in two years the next president will simply reverse it. So it would be pointless. The left and right need to come together somehow and find real solutions to our immigration problems. They won't though. They'll each just force through crap when they have power - fight about it - and ultimately nothing will get done but they'll stay in power. Maybe that is the point - don't solve it so you can keep people arguing over it.
 
How bout you do a little research in to the INTENT....


https://www.14thamendment.us/birthright_citizenship/original_intent.html

""Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country.""


This is from the framers who ratified the 14th in 1868 they understood the difference as the intent was NOT for Foreign born parents.. but for recently freed black slaves. But dont let me educate on the "Intent" because per perfect words of standards without understanding intent it fits the narrative.......

THIS WAS a loophole that was NEVER enforce because back in 1868 the didnt think people would be intentionally breaking our immigration laws and we would NOT be actively enforcing them for more thank 80 years...


Interesting that you quoted an article, but if you actually read the fourteenth it say absolutely nothing close to what you had underlined.
 
Interesting that you quoted an article, but if you actually read the fourteenth it say absolutely nothing close to what you had underlined.

The ABA write up on the 14th had this to say( the source of the previously bolded statement ).

The Fourteenth Amendment states that all persons born in the United States and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” become citizens at birth, a standard known as birthright citizen-ship. The exact meaning of this phrase has become more controversial today, during an era with high rates of illegal immigration. Some members of Congress and President Trump have said that they oppose birthright citizenship for children whose parents are in the United States without authorization. Such opponents have proposed changing this standard.

In 1866, the Civil Rights Act extended birthright citizenship to persons “not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed.” Native Americans who remained members of their tribes, and thus were not taxed, were subject to the sovereignty of their own nations. President Andrew Johnson vetoed the bill because he said it applied to persons of all races, including “the Chinese of the Pacific states, Indians subject to taxation, the people called gypsies, as well as the entire race designated as blacks.” Congress overrode the veto and also added a Citizenship Clause to the proposed Fourteenth Amendment, which set a higher standard for Reconstruction than did President Johnson.

However, the language of the new Citizenship Clause differed from the Civil Rights Act. Instead of conferring birthright citizenship to persons “not subject to any foreign power,” the new language applied to persons “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States. Senator Jacob Howard of Michigan, who introduced the clause in the amendment, described its meaning: “This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers.”

But many senators disagreed about the interpretation of this change in language. According to Senator Willard Saulsbury of Delaware, the goal of the Citizenship Clause was “simply to declare that Negroes shall be citizens of the United States.” Senator Edgar Cowan of Pennsylvania argued that a foreigner “has a right to the protection of the laws; but he is not a citizen within the ordinary acceptation of the word.” He worried that the clause would make citizens of Chinese immigrants in California or a “Gypsy” born in his state. But Senator John Conness of California—an Irish immigrant—took exception, noting that Chinese immigrants in his state had already been allowed to become citizens and were few in number.

The only way you can change the Constitution is to amend the Constitution.

Additionally, the ABA notes that "the Supreme Court could overturn the Wong Kim Ark case or hold that the ruling does not apply to the children of illegal immigrants"
 
:roll:

Yeah, this is what you think when you hate a guy just because, and don't care in the slightest what his actual judicial record is.

Meanwhile, everybody who's against Trump on this should be happy Trump has been appointing originalists, textualists, and strict-constructionists to the bench.

You do realize that the notion that conservative judges interpret laws based upon "original intent" and "interpret the Constitution, not make laws" is nonsense, right? Below are the results of an analysis of First Amendment rulings. What it shows is that liberal justices "tend" to favor liberal plantiffs but only by a slim margin. On the other hand, conservative justices widely skew towards conservative plaintiffs and against liberal ones. That's making law.

nyt_in_group_bias.jpg


I could also go on and show that conservative justices typically favor corporate interests over the rights of workers; corporations over the environment and those that want to restrict voter rights over those who want to protect voters.
 
The ABA write up on the 14th had this to say( the source of the previously bolded statement ).


Additionally, the ABA notes that "the Supreme Court could overturn the Wong Kim Ark case or hold that the ruling does not apply to the children of illegal immigrants"
Yes, the court "could" do anything. It could rule that one isn't entitled to citizenship if birds fly out of your butt. However, if the court rules in-line with historical precedent and the intent of the Amendment, instead of being a tool of conservative policy makers, they will rule that Trump's threatened action is blatantly unconstitutional.
 
Lindsey is going to have a really hard time getting confirmed as AG after this

Oops...
 
The idea should be discussed and expanded on. Entering the country illegally to give birth and using such as an opportunity to push for citizenship is a problem.

Jmo

What about asylum seekers who have entered legally and have given birth while waiting for their application to be decided? Presumably they would be under the jurisdiction of the US.
 
However, it is funny to see all these conservatives who treat the constitution as some kind of holy manuscript when it comes to the 2nd amendment are keen to see a Presidential EO to amend an amendment they don't like.
 
Really? How can one argue what ALL PERSONS BORN IN THE USA ARE CITIZENS OF THE USA mean?

I tend to agree with you, however, the question comes with the section that says "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" and whether that means that the parents must be citizens of the US as well.
 
Back
Top Bottom