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Sen. Lindsey Graham says he'll introduce legislation to end birthright citizenship

Or blowing it on stupid crap like a $50B wall then another $25B/year to maintain it.
Where in the hell did you pull those numbers from? Anyway a wall would slow illegal imagration and illegal drug smuggling both of which have a huge economic impact on the country. That would save us billions on social services costs and the human costs of the opioid crisis .
 
Where in the hell did you pull those numbers from? Anyway a wall would slow illegal imagration and illegal drug smuggling both of which have a huge economic impact on the country. That would save us billions on social services costs and the human costs of the opioid crisis .

Projections when it was first being proposed. If you have better ones, let’s see them.

Dude, you can fix the “social services” problem with a law. No wall necessary. Besides, how does a wall fix the problem of those already here, the 40% who come here legally then stay illegally or those who arrive by boat?
 
Where in the hell did you pull those numbers from? Anyway a wall would slow illegal imagration and illegal drug smuggling both of which have a huge economic impact on the country. That would save us billions on social services costs and the human costs of the opioid crisis .

Did you know that there is one very simple thing that Americans could do that would completely eliminate illegal drug smuggling?

Do you know what that simple thing is?

[HINT - "Stop buying the drugs"]

Have you ever read "Border Crossings Have Been Declining for Years, Despite Claims of a "crisis of Illegal Immigration"?

If there are 100 instances of "Action X" in "Year 1" and 10% are detected, do you know how many cases of "Action X" are detected in "Year 1"?

If there are 50 instances of "Action X" in "Year 2" and 30% are detected, do you know how many cases of "Action X" are detected in "Year 2"?

Does the change in the number of detected instances of "Action X" between "Year 1" and "Year 2" mean that there are more or less instances of "Action X" in "Year 2" than there were in "Year 1"?

If the majority (as much as 2/3rds) of the instances of "Illegal Immigration" to "Country A" are the result of people who have been legally admitted to "Country A" NOT leaving "Country A" when they were supposed to, is the major problem "People entering 'Country A' illegally" or is it "People remaining in 'Country A' illegally?

Is it easier to apprehend someone who is in the act of entering a country at the time that that happens than it is to apprehend someone whose legal right to be in a country expires at the time that that happens?
 
That is expressed as an opinion, and you are entitled to your own opinions.



That is expressed as a fact (which it is NOT), and you are NOT entitled to your own facts.
Sorry, I only saw this now, given that for a couple of months I haven't been coming to Debate Politics.
I frankly don't understand why you seem to believe that the FACT that children born of American parents anywhere in the world are Americans (like John McCain), is not a fact. That's factual. It's what is currently understood and practiced as a matter of fact. The late Senator McCain's American passport proves it as factual (and those of all the other US citizens like him, who were born abroad, but from American parents). He was born in Coco Solo, Panama, but he was American because his parents were Americans. Please explain to me why you consider this to be my opinion, and not a fact.
 
Those countries also restrict gun rights. Thanks for proving you're just like the Liberals. Sad.

Uh, what? What in the hell does this have to do with gun rights?

I merely said that the overwhelming majority of developed countries (therefore, desirable places for anchor babies) have long established that children born of illegal aliens in their territory are not automatically citizens. That is a smart rule, and I think the United States, a developed country, should join the consensus of these other developed countries and have a similar rule. A ****hole country doesn't need that rule because nobody wants to plant anchor babies there; that's where the developed part comes in.

The fact that I admire this rule has strictly nothing to do with gun rights. You are mixing up stuff, out of nowhere.
 
Sorry, I only saw this now, given that for a couple of months I haven't been coming to Debate Politics.
I frankly don't understand why you seem to believe that the FACT that children born of American parents anywhere in the world are Americans (like John McCain), is not a fact. That's factual.

Not quite. They are eligible to APPLY and the US government is able to REJECT that application.

IF the application is accepted, then the child is an American citizen from that moment on, but they are NOT "natural born" citizens because a "natural born" citizen is not required to APPLY for recognition as an American citizen.

Yes, it's a very fine point, but on such fine points are huge legal fees made.

He was born in Coco Solo, Panama, but he was American because his parents were Americans. Please explain to me why you consider this to be my opinion, and not a fact.

If his parents had NOT applied on his behalf, then he would not have ACQUIRED American citizenship. If the consular officer had NOT APPROVED the application then he would NOT have ACQUIRED American citizenship.

  1. Acquisition of U.S. Citizenship by a Child Born Abroad
  2. U.S. Citizenship Acquired by Birth Abroad
  3. APPLICATION FOR CONSULAR REPORT OF BIRTH ABROAD OF A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Please note Section 30 on Page 4 (of 7) in the third linked document.
 
Not quite. They are eligible to APPLY and the US government is able to REJECT that application.

IF the application is accepted, then the child is an American citizen from that moment on, but they are NOT "natural born" citizens because a "natural born" citizen is not required to APPLY for recognition as an American citizen.

Yes, it's a very fine point, but on such fine points are huge legal fees made.



If his parents had NOT applied on his behalf, then he would not have ACQUIRED American citizenship. If the consular officer had NOT APPROVED the application then he would NOT have ACQUIRED American citizenship.

  1. Acquisition of U.S. Citizenship by a Child Born Abroad
  2. U.S. Citizenship Acquired by Birth Abroad
  3. APPLICATION FOR CONSULAR REPORT OF BIRTH ABROAD OF A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Please note Section 30 on Page 4 (of 7) in the third linked document.

OK, I didn't know that. Thanks for clarifying. I stand corrected. Oh boy, I always assumed it was automatic.

But in this case, why was John McCain allowed to run for president? I thought only natural born citizens could run for president.

Oh wait, no, I think you're actually wrong, from your own third link. Look, on page 1, the application is for a consular report, not for citizenship. The document says that the child is a citizen at birth. It's just that this situation needs to be certified by the consul, but it doesn't say that the child wasn't a citizen. "Who was born abroad and who acquired citizenship at birth." In all letters.

Again, from your first link: "A person born abroad in wedlock to a U.S. citizen mother and a U.S. citizen father acquires U.S. citizenship at birth."

So, the acquisition is made at birth. Of course the fact needs to be demonstrated (thus the application for the consular report) but in no part of this legislation it says that the child wasn't a citizen at birth.

Just like one needs a birth certificate to demonstrate that one was born in the US. A person applies for a birth certificate, it doesn't mean the person wasn't a citizen before the certificate is issued. In this case, this consular report is in lieu of a US birth certificate, and VERIFIES (it doesn't grant) that conditions for the citizenship have been met. But the legislation says that the conditions are met at birth.

Your second link does establish that other presence requirements are also needed, but again, it doesn't say that citizenship was acquired later than birth. It still says the acquisition was at birth, and even if someone loses it for not meeting presence requirements, it can be reinstated by an oath of allegiance, and when it's reinstated, it goes back to being at birth:

"INA §324(d)(1) now provides that a person who was a U.S. citizen at birth who lost citizenship for failing to meet certain physical presence retention requirements in effect before October 10, 1978 will, upon taking the oath of allegiance, once again be considered be a U.S. citizen and have the status of a U.S. citizen by birth. "
 
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OK, I didn't know that. Thanks for clarifying. I stand corrected. Oh boy, I always assumed it was automatic.

So do most people.

But in this case, why was John McCain allowed to run for president? I thought only natural born citizens could run for president.

Because the precise legal definition of "natural born citizen" has not yet been judicially determined by the Supreme Court of the United States of America.

Oh wait, no, I think you're actually wrong, from your own third link. Look, on page 1, the application is for a consular report, not for citizenship. The document says that the child is a citizen at birth. It's just that this situation needs to be certified by the consul, but it doesn't say that the child wasn't a citizen. "Who was born abroad and who acquired citizenship at birth." In all letters.

Again, from your first link: "A person born abroad in wedlock to a U.S. citizen mother and a U.S. citizen father acquires U.S. citizenship at birth."

So, the acquisition is made at birth.

I will grant you that the acquisition is made RETROACTIVELY.

Of course the fact needs to be demonstrated (thus the application for the consular report) but in no part of this legislation it says that the child wasn't a citizen at birth.

I had a much longer response, but it timed out so I'll give a shorter one a try.


A man (who is an American citizen that was born in New York City to American citizen parents) and his wife (who is an American citizen that was born in Cleveland to American citizen parents) are vacationing in Banff, Alberta, Canada, and the woman gives birth to a baby. The man and his wife then attempt to return to the United States of America with their baby through the US Border Station at Porthills, Idaho. The parents neglected to make an application for "consular recognition" in respect of their child.

Will the parents be allowed to enter the US with their child?

No. The child does not have their own US passport and is not listed on the passports of either of the parents, therefore the child is inadmissible to the United States of America.

Just like one needs a birth certificate to demonstrate that one was born in the US. A person applies for a birth certificate, it doesn't mean the person wasn't a citizen before the certificate is issued. In this case, this consular report is in lieu of a US birth certificate, and VERIFIES (it doesn't grant) that conditions for the citizenship have been met. But the legislation says that the conditions are met at birth.

Under what conditions can a person be REFUSED a birth certificate?

If a person never applied for a birth certificate until they were over the age of 18, would that be grounds for refusing to issue them a birth certificate?

If no application was made by the child's parents and the child did not make an application for "consular recognition" until they were past the age of 18, would that be grounds for refusing the application for "consular recognition"?

As you can see, the situations are not quite as parallel as you think they are.

Your second link does establish that other presence requirements are also needed, but again, it doesn't say that citizenship was acquired later than birth. It still says the acquisition was at birth, and even if someone loses it for not meeting presence requirements, it can be reinstated by an oath of allegiance, and when it's reinstated, it goes back to being at birth:

"INA §324(d)(1) now provides that a person who was a U.S. citizen at birth who lost citizenship for failing to meet certain physical presence retention requirements in effect before October 10, 1978 will, upon taking the oath of allegiance, once again be considered be a U.S. citizen and have the status of a U.S. citizen by birth. "

And if they lost (or did not have) their American citizenship AFTER 10 OCT 78, what then?

PS - Of such distinctions are great legal bills made.
 
So do most people.



Because the precise legal definition of "natural born citizen" has not yet been judicially determined by the Supreme Court of the United States of America.



I will grant you that the acquisition is made RETROACTIVELY.



I had a much longer response, but it timed out so I'll give a shorter one a try.

A man (who is an American citizen that was born in New York City to American citizen parents) and his wife (who is an American citizen that was born in Cleveland to American citizen parents) are vacationing in Banff, Alberta, Canada, and the woman gives birth to a baby. The man and his wife then attempt to return to the United States of America with their baby through the US Border Station at Porthills, Idaho. The parents neglected to make an application for "consular recognition" in respect of their child.

Will the parents be allowed to enter the US with their child?

No. The child does not have their own US passport and is not listed on the passports of either of the parents, therefore the child is inadmissible to the United States of America.



Under what conditions can a person be REFUSED a birth certificate?

If a person never applied for a birth certificate until they were over the age of 18, would that be grounds for refusing to issue them a birth certificate?

If no application was made by the child's parents and the child did not make an application for "consular recognition" until they were past the age of 18, would that be grounds for refusing the application for "consular recognition"?

As you can see, the situations are not quite as parallel as you think they are.



And if they lost (or did not have) their American citizenship AFTER 10 OCT 78, what then?

PS - Of such distinctions are great legal bills made.

Yes, it is true that there is some ambiguity and that there is a complex legal question that has been back and forth with different laws over the years. It remains true, though, that "natural born citizenship" (as opposed to citizenship by naturalization) is always acquired at birth like the texts you linked to say, over and over. The laws going back and forth mostly deal with how to recognize it and verify it, what proof and conditions need to met, and so forth, but they never dispute that birth is the moment of the acquisition. See, we are talking about the required documents to verify it, but we are not saying that these Americans born abroad of American parents got naturalized once the petition is approved. They merely got recognized as citizens at birth. It is not extraordinary that one applies for a document to be issued by a consul verifying the meeting of the conditions. The "approval" of the petition is more a question of the proper documentation being correctly filed and the form being correctly filled. Do you actually think that if the parents do everything by the book and present to the consul the appropriate documents (e.g., their valid passports, the baby's local hospital birth notice, etc.) the consul would still deny their child the citizenship?

There are only two ways to acquire American citizenship: A) by birth (by being born in the territory of the United States, or abroad from American parents) or B) by naturalization.

The situation that applies to babies born abroad of American parents is within case A. Your very links say it.
 
Yes, it is true that there is some ambiguity and that there is a complex legal question that has been back and forth with different laws over the years. It remains true, though, that "natural born citizenship" (as opposed to citizenship by naturalization) is always acquired at birth like the texts you linked to say, over and over. The laws going back and forth mostly deal with how to recognize it and verify it, what proof and conditions need to met, and so forth, but they never dispute that birth is the moment of the acquisition. See, we are talking about the required documents to verify it, but we are not saying that these Americans born abroad of American parents got naturalized once the petition is approved.

They did not go through a "naturalization process" because they were retroactively recognized as being American citizens.

Until that retroactive recognition is granted, they are NOT American citizens.

They merely got recognized as citizens at birth.

A fine legal point, but they were NOT "recognized as citizens at birth", they were "recognized as citizens, with that status being retroactively applied".

If they were "recognized as citizens at birth" then it should be possible for a 45 year old who had been born in China to American citizen parents and for whom no application had been made previously, to make the application and have their American citizenship - from birth - recognized. It isn't.

It is not extraordinary that one applies for a document to be issued by a consul verifying the meeting of the conditions. The "approval" of the petition is more a question of the proper documentation being correctly filed and the form being correctly filled. Do you actually think that if the parents do everything by the book and present to the consul the appropriate documents (e.g., their valid passports, the baby's local hospital birth notice, etc.) the consul would still deny their child the citizenship?

I don't think that the Consul WOULD, but the Consul COULD. AND, if the Consul DID, then the child would NOT be an American citizen until that Consular ruling had been appealed and the appeal had been successful.

There are only two ways to acquire American citizenship: A) by birth (by being born in the territory of the United States, or abroad from American parents) or B) by naturalization.

The situation that applies to babies born abroad of American parents is within case A. Your very links say it.

Of course it does, but that applies to "acquisition" of citizenship and does not speak to "natural born citizenship".

That is the fine legal point that is going to make some lawyers a lot of money.

Personally, I think that the solution would be for the courts to define "natural born citizen" to mean


"any person born in the territorial limits of the United States of America AND who would have been granted consular recognition had they been born in a foreign country OR anyone born in a foreign country whose application for consular recognition has been approved".

That would set up exactly parallel laws EXCEPT that the ban on applying after reaching the age of 18 would have to be struck out.
 
They did not go through a "naturalization process" because they were retroactively recognized as being American citizens.

Until that retroactive recognition is granted, they are NOT American citizens.



A fine legal point, but they were NOT "recognized as citizens at birth", they were "recognized as citizens, with that status being retroactively applied".

If they were "recognized as citizens at birth" then it should be possible for a 45 year old who had been born in China to American citizen parents and for whom no application had been made previously, to make the application and have their American citizenship - from birth - recognized. It isn't.



I don't think that the Consul WOULD, but the Consul COULD. AND, if the Consul DID, then the child would NOT be an American citizen until that Consular ruling had been appealed and the appeal had been successful.



Of course it does, but that applies to "acquisition" of citizenship and does not speak to "natural born citizenship".

That is the fine legal point that is going to make some lawyers a lot of money.

Personally, I think that the solution would be for the courts to define "natural born citizen" to mean


"any person born in the territorial limits of the United States of America AND who would have been granted consular recognition had they been born in a foreign country OR anyone born in a foreign country whose application for consular recognition has been approved".

That would set up exactly parallel laws EXCEPT that the ban on applying after reaching the age of 18 would have to be struck out.

Yes, I did say that the laws are ambiguous, and they have been changed over the decades to try to decrease that, but still aren't perfect. Sure, we could use a clearer definition of natural born citizen.
But I don't see it as a big deal. A consul would not be likely to deny such petition if all the conditions are met, and if he/she did in a moment of psychosis or mental defect, the parents would win on appeal. So, in pragmatic terms, that's what it is: a baby is a citizen if he is born within our territory, or if he is born abroad of American parents. Period, full stop. The rest is semantics and like you said, they're just the little subtle issues that lawyers use in order to make money. The spirit of the law is pretty clear, though, even if the letter of it could use some clarification.
 
Yes, I did say that the laws are ambiguous, and they have been changed over the decades to try to decrease that, but still aren't perfect. Sure, we could use a clearer definition of natural born citizen.

I agree that there is a need for that - if only to stop the ignorant bickering over the point.

But I don't see it as a big deal. A consul would not be likely to deny such petition if all the conditions are met, and if he/she did in a moment of psychosis or mental defect, the parents would win on appeal.

Quite likely - but that would take time and money, and UNTIL THE APPEAL HAD BEEN SUCCESSFUL the child would not be admissible to the United States of America AS AN AMERICAN.

(If the child had been born in Canada, then the child could enter the US as a CANADIAN VISITOR as long as the child's parents could prove that they had the child's parent's permission to bring the child into the United States of America -which, although it sounds silly, would require that the child's parents prove that they were, in fact, the child's parents. And, if the CBP personnel decided NOT to accept that the people presenting as the child's parents were, in fact, the child's parents, then the CBP personnel could ban the child from entering the United States of America AND THERE IS NO APPEAL from that ban.)

So, in pragmatic terms, that's what it is: a baby is a citizen if he is born within our territory,

That is the state of the law today.

...or if he is born abroad of American parents. Period, full stop.

Not quite, you missed the "providing that the parents actually applied in the requisite manner and met the criteria for approval.

Let me give you an example where the child would NOT be an American citizen even though BOTH parents were "natural born" American citizens.


The child's mother is born in Boston and moves, with her "natural born" American citizen parents, to Ottawa when she is two years old.
The child's father is born in Seattle and moves, with his "natural born" American citizen parents, to Vancouver when he is two years old.
The child's father and mother spend the rest of their lives in Canada, but meet, and get married in Moose Jaw SK when they are both 20 years old.
Two years later, the child is born in Medicine Bend AB.

That child would NOT, regardless of the fact that BOTH parents were "natural born" American citizens, qualify for American citizenship.

The rest is semantics

See above - no "semantics" there.

... and like you said, they're just the little subtle issues that lawyers use in order to make money.

That's not quite the case. The lawyers don't use the subtle issues to make money, they use the fact that someone else wants to dispute the subtle issues in order that they can make money for themselves.

[ASIDE - I was once consulted by a potential client who wanted to sue someone over a small debt "as a matter of principle". There was no doubt that the debt existed and that the debtor simply wasn't going to pay. However, I thought that the client could put their money to better use, so I told that that "If you deposit [an amount equal to the debt PLUS a substantial sum] I will absolutely guarantee to have a cheque for [an amount equal to the debt] ready for you to pick up within 72 hours of your deposit cheque clearing your bank and the funds being deposited in mine.". The potential client was initially pleased, but then stopped and asked me how I could make that guarantee. So I told him. I said that the minute that I had the money in my hands I'd write him a cheque for the amount that the debtor owed him - the debtor's debt would be discharged and he would have won his "matter of principle". When he said that he'd be pretty stupid to agree to that arrangement, I had to agree with him - but that the net effect was going to be the same as if he had actually gone to court and won. I really don't know if he got some other lawyer to take his case, but I suspect that he got the point.

The spirit of the law is pretty clear, though, even if the letter of it could use some clarification.

Now there we are in agreement - PROVIDED that you add "for some people who simply cannot read plain English and/or don't have a clue about how laws are interpreted by the courts".
 
I agree that there is a need for that - if only to stop the ignorant bickering over the point.



Quite likely - but that would take time and money, and UNTIL THE APPEAL HAD BEEN SUCCESSFUL the child would not be admissible to the United States of America AS AN AMERICAN.

(If the child had been born in Canada, then the child could enter the US as a CANADIAN VISITOR as long as the child's parents could prove that they had the child's parent's permission to bring the child into the United States of America -which, although it sounds silly, would require that the child's parents prove that they were, in fact, the child's parents. And, if the CBP personnel decided NOT to accept that the people presenting as the child's parents were, in fact, the child's parents, then the CBP personnel could ban the child from entering the United States of America AND THERE IS NO APPEAL from that ban.)



That is the state of the law today.



Not quite, you missed the "providing that the parents actually applied in the requisite manner and met the criteria for approval.

Let me give you an example where the child would NOT be an American citizen even though BOTH parents were "natural born" American citizens.


The child's mother is born in Boston and moves, with her "natural born" American citizen parents, to Ottawa when she is two years old.
The child's father is born in Seattle and moves, with his "natural born" American citizen parents, to Vancouver when he is two years old.
The child's father and mother spend the rest of their lives in Canada, but meet, and get married in Moose Jaw SK when they are both 20 years old.
Two years later, the child is born in Medicine Bend AB.

That child would NOT, regardless of the fact that BOTH parents were "natural born" American citizens, qualify for American citizenship.



See above - no "semantics" there.



That's not quite the case. The lawyers don't use the subtle issues to make money, they use the fact that someone else wants to dispute the subtle issues in order that they can make money for themselves.

[ASIDE - I was once consulted by a potential client who wanted to sue someone over a small debt "as a matter of principle". There was no doubt that the debt existed and that the debtor simply wasn't going to pay. However, I thought that the client could put their money to better use, so I told that that "If you deposit [an amount equal to the debt PLUS a substantial sum] I will absolutely guarantee to have a cheque for [an amount equal to the debt] ready for you to pick up within 72 hours of your deposit cheque clearing your bank and the funds being deposited in mine.". The potential client was initially pleased, but then stopped and asked me how I could make that guarantee. So I told him. I said that the minute that I had the money in my hands I'd write him a cheque for the amount that the debtor owed him - the debtor's debt would be discharged and he would have won his "matter of principle". When he said that he'd be pretty stupid to agree to that arrangement, I had to agree with him - but that the net effect was going to be the same as if he had actually gone to court and won. I really don't know if he got some other lawyer to take his case, but I suspect that he got the point.



Now there we are in agreement - PROVIDED that you add "for some people who simply cannot read plain English and/or don't have a clue about how laws are interpreted by the courts".

OK, OK. I see you had to be a lawyer, indeed. You love this kind of argument. It is indeed entertaining. So, you picked the right field. Good for you.
Me, I think this stuff is very obsessive-compulsive. I like a more pragmatic approach. Life is short. We shouldn't complicate it too much. But that's just me.
 
OK, OK. I see you had to be a lawyer, indeed. You love this kind of argument. It is indeed entertaining. So, you picked the right field. Good for you.
Me, I think this stuff is very obsessive-compulsive. I like a more pragmatic approach. Life is short. We shouldn't complicate it too much. But that's just me.

As long as the rules are simple and people use common sense, lawyers starve.

I think that it is possible to get the laws simple.

I'm not so sure about the second.
 
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