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NAFTA deals leave US dairy farmers behind

Jesse Booth said:
In this case, since we're basically in the second Gilded Age, I would recommend he do the same thing that President Theodore Roosevelt did to stamp out corruption in government, primarily from big business interests putting their hands where they don't beling: appoint a select panel of rutheless bulldogs of regulators to sniff out any hint of under-the-table money exchanges, split up the biggest monopolies around by force & let the rest of the pack sort themselves out, and let the overwhelming love and loyalty of the American people tie Congress's hands for him.

Unfortunately, Donald "I Iove Nepotism" Trump is far more like Taft rhan Teddy, and will only enable the corporate shills in Congress to strip away more and more consumer and small business protections, as we're already seeing.
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Anyone else remember Ma Bell?

Was that the last time America broke a monopoly rather than create more???
 
Mycroft said:
Is THAT what that book tells you? That Trump should make war on the dairy industry?

How is that going to end subsidies?
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When it comes to subsidies the first that should go are the billions paid to big oil...
 
Mycroft said:
yawn...

Get away from the media, dude. If you do you might understand that he is using the tariffs as a tool. They are not solutions.

He has stated many times that his objective is fair, balanced and reciprocal trade agreements without tariffs and subsidies.
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Hey "dude" 😁 my media a out farming comes from right here in the middle of farm country. I have to drive past dozens of dairy farms to get to the local case station.

This **** is real out here in rural Wisconsin!!!
 
What? Trumps NAFTA victory dance is premature? Whoda thunk it.
 
GDViking said:
Hey "dude" �� my media a out farming comes from right here in the middle of farm country. I have to drive past dozens of dairy farms to get to the local case station.

This **** is real out here in rural Wisconsin!!!
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Okay. So what?
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From ABC News

NAFTA deals leave US dairy farmers behind
​

Minnesota farmer Paul Fritsche can no longer afford health insurance as he struggles to sustain a dairy farm that has been in his family for nearly a century.

With U.S. milk prices in the fourth year of a slump due to chronic oversupply, Fritsche, 58, is unsure whether he will be able to pass his 30-cow farm onto his sons and grandsons.

"Do you pull the plug? We've been at it for 90 years," he said. "I'd hate to lose that."

The dairy industry was a sticking point in the contentious renegotiations of the free trade deal between the U.S., Canada and Mexico that concluded last month.

U.S. President Donald Trump demanded concessions from the protected Canadian dairy industry and said on Twitter that Canada was hurting U.S. farmers with high tariffs. After Canada gave some ground, Trump claimed a big victory and said farmers would have more export options.

But Canada opened less than ...

COMMENT:-

It looks like even the "Big Winners" are starting to look behind the curtain at the Emerald City.
​
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I'm not sure what you are getting to here. The trade agreement opens up more export of milk from the U.S. to Canada. That's a good thing, right? It would seem that the problem isn't with the trade agreement, but with the US chronically overproducing. How does that make this a bad trade deal?
 
Jesse Booth said:
You guys also put those tariffs on American dairy because to counter the American dairy subsidies for Big Agriculture, if I'm not mistaken.
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The US government does not pay any "subsidy" it only pays "price stabilization payments".

Those are NOT the same thing. For one thing "subsidy" has only 7 keystrokes in it while "price stabilization payments" has 28.

It is obvious that 7 and 28 are different so "subsidy" and "price stabilization payments" MUST be different.

Right?
 
Mycroft said:
yawn...

Get away from the media, dude. If you do you might understand that he is using the tariffs as a tool. They are not solutions.

He has stated many times that his objective is fair, balanced and reciprocal trade agreements without tariffs and subsidies.
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Indeed he has, provided that those "fair, balanced, and reciprocal trade agreements" guarantee that the US will ALWAYS make ALL of the profits and the other countries will ALWAYS take ALL of the losses.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From ABC News

NAFTA deals leave US dairy farmers behind
​

Minnesota farmer Paul Fritsche can no longer afford health insurance as he struggles to sustain a dairy farm that has been in his family for nearly a century.

With U.S. milk prices in the fourth year of a slump due to chronic oversupply, Fritsche, 58, is unsure whether he will be able to pass his 30-cow farm onto his sons and grandsons.

"Do you pull the plug? We've been at it for 90 years," he said. "I'd hate to lose that."

The dairy industry was a sticking point in the contentious renegotiations of the free trade deal between the U.S., Canada and Mexico that concluded last month.

U.S. President Donald Trump demanded concessions from the protected Canadian dairy industry and said on Twitter that Canada was hurting U.S. farmers with high tariffs. After Canada gave some ground, Trump claimed a big victory and said farmers would have more export options.

But Canada opened less than ...

COMMENT:-

It looks like even the "Big Winners" are starting to look behind the curtain at the Emerald City.
​
Click to expand...

#30 cows IS his problem. There's no way under any circumstances you can make it on 30 cow's of likely B milk.
 
GDViking said:
Anyone else remember Ma Bell?

Was that the last time America broke a monopoly rather than create more???
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When they "broke up Ma Bell" were the shareholders required to shift their holdings so that they were only holding shares in one of the "severed" parts or (to make up some numbers) if someone held 20% of the "unbroken Ma Bell" did they end up owning 20% of each one of the "severed parts"?

If I control a company that has a monopoly in "X", and then that company is "severed" into several companies (each of which I control) that - collectively - are, essentially, a monopoly, exactly how much less do I control "X"?

[HINT - "Not one damn bit less."]
 
Chaddelamancha said:
I'm not sure what you are getting to here. The trade agreement opens up more export of milk from the U.S. to Canada. That's a good thing, right? It would seem that the problem isn't with the trade agreement, but with the US chronically overproducing. How does that make this a bad trade deal?
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Under NAFTA 1.0, the US had access to about 3.2% of Canada's milk market before the existing tariffs kicked in.

Under the TPP, the US would have had access to 3.4% of Canada's milk market before the existing tariffs kicked back in.

Under NAFTA 2.0 the US has access to 3.6% of Canada's milk market before the existing tariffs kick back in.

Wisconsin alone produces enough milk to supply 100% of Canada's milk market.

That doesn't mean that NAFTA 2.0 is a BAD trade deal, it just means that it isn't the "Biggly YUUGE" good trade deal that Mr. Trump said that it was.

PS - Canada has already pulled off an end run around what Mr. Trump insisted was a key component whereby no party to NAFTA 2.0 could enter into a free trade deal with a "non-market" (whatever that means) country without the blessing of the US government. You can expect that the Mexican government is going to do the same thing.
 
Mycroft said:
Who? Trump or JB?

Anyway, what kind of cut does either one get?

Come on, dude. Talk to me. Make sense. But hey...get rid of the talking point one liners. They are dumb.
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Time will tell.

You do understand that folks become politicians to make money by influencing, right?

From every little town in the country to international agreements.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
That doesn't mean that NAFTA 2.0 is a BAD trade deal, it just means that it isn't the "Biggly YUUGE" good trade deal that Mr. Trump said that it was.

.
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Is anyone here not wise to Trump yet?

He claims the sky is falling when it's not just to claim he saved it.

My God people. Children can see this.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Indeed he has, provided that those "fair, balanced, and reciprocal trade agreements" guarantee that the US will ALWAYS make ALL of the profits and the other countries will ALWAYS take ALL of the losses.
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Baseless hyperbole.

Tell me...which part of the USMCA guarantees the USgets all the profit and the other countries take all the losses?
 
noonereal said:
Time will tell.

You do understand that folks become politicians to make money by influencing, right?

From every little town in the country to international agreements.
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So...you can't tell me who gets what cut.

Okay.
 
Geoist said:
Fair enough. I understand the pragmatism of protectionism I just like to call out people who say they don’t support something when they clearly do.
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Of course it is protectionism. Been around forever. The devil is in the details, not the general concept. I recall some years ago China wanted to start importing tires. The American tire manufacturers response is that they might as well all shut down if that happens - so it was killed by tariffs (and regulations).
 
GDViking said:
Hey "dude" �� my media a out farming comes from right here in the middle of farm country. I have to drive past dozens of dairy farms to get to the local case station.

This **** is real out here in rural Wisconsin!!!
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Well over 100 years ago - more like over 150 years ago, Southern and Central Wisconsin was grid out into 400 to 600 acre plots that could be homesteaded to populate the state. This particularly attracted Germans due to the climate similar to Germany. This was enough land to grow the feed plus a garden, chickens etc to support a small herd of dairy cattle. A person could eek out a living - and when the government started price fixing and subsidizing then a fairly decent living. But those days are ending - like it or not. Milk sales continue to plummet as less and less people drink milk - and milk for food processing brings a much lower price. The value of the land also is vastly beyond the value of farming income.

Unless a person has a supplemental job or is willing to live and farm like the Amish, the tiny Wisconsin family dairy farms have been doomed for a long time. That's sad, but that's reality. The only question is how much money does the government (local, state and federal) throw it those farmers for their votes?
 
Mycroft said:
Is THAT what that book tells you? That Trump should make war on the dairy industry?

How is that going to end subsidies?
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I mean, that's a retarded & overly-simplistic way of phrasing it, and you should know better than that as a grown man, but at least you're almost right. If he actually gave two ****s about draining the swamp (which he doesn't), he would "declare war" on lobbying and corporate control of Congress as a whole - and he would actually ****ing win. Everyone and their grandmother wants to get big business out of politics, and he could have played his cards right to make Congress heel. If you tried reading a book every now and then, you might actually learn how.
 
Jesse Booth said:
I mean, that's a retarded & overly-simplistic way of phrasing it, and you should know better than that as a grown man, but at least you're almost right. If he actually gave two ****s about draining the swamp (which he doesn't), he would "declare war" on lobbying and corporate control of Congress as a whole - and he would actually ****ing win. Everyone and their grandmother wants to get big business out of politics, and he could have played his cards right to make Congress heel. If you tried reading a book every now and then, you might actually learn how.
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Oh...now you are going from dairy subsidies to draining the swamp...by way of crooked businessmen. But you still haven't told me what that book says about how Trump can end the subsidies.

btw, dealing with lobbyists and "corporate control of Congress" would be something that Congress has to deal with...at least, it seems that way to me. What should Trump do? Make up his own laws?
 
Mycroft said:
something that Congress has to deal with...
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You're being deliberately obtuse. Dairy subsidies are part of subsidies,which are a problem. Congress doesn't want to deal with them, but a competent President has many tools to direct Congress and set an agenda with. Roosevelt didn't just pull laws out of his ass to break up trusts, he browbeat Congress into it with investigative bodies and overwhelming public support. If Trump didn't have his head up his ass, he could have done the same.
 
Jesse Booth said:
You're being deliberately obtuse. Dairy subsidies are part of subsidies,which are a problem. Congress doesn't want to deal with them, but a competent President has many tools to direct Congress and set an agenda with. Roosevelt didn't just pull laws out of his ass to break up trusts, he browbeat Congress into it with investigative bodies and overwhelming public support. If Trump didn't have his head up his ass, he could have done the same.
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You are seriously naive.

Trump can't make Congress do something they have no intention of doing. Hell, he can't even make them do something THEY want to do like deal with the dreamers.
 
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