• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The Latest: Trump: I do find Saudi explanation credible

Thats his position now, wait an hour. The man is so wishy washy, or as my Dad would say, an opportunist. He has no convictions except to his base, and the $.

His position has changed as often as the Saudi's story. So far he has mishandled the situation due to an inconsistent message. This lack of self discipline and lack of integrity overall are not admirable leadership qualities.

It would be overly cruel to say something like "Mr. Trump was elected as the American President by the American voters in an American election conducted by Americans under American laws as provided for by the American constitution so the American people will simply have to live with it." - so I won't.
 
It would be overly cruel to say something like "Mr. Trump was elected as the American President by the American voters in an American election conducted by Americans under American laws as provided for by the American constitution so the American people will simply have to live with it." - so I won't.

In the Don Cheeto world of alternative facts, it would be premature to take a definitive position until all political impacts are reviewed, donatons to PACs and Super PACs need be reviewed, diversion of MSM attention to Hondurans in Mexico need be reviewed, identification of events that could be used to divert MSM attention or creation of same meed be reviewed, and then and then invoke the spirit of GWBush and "Helluva job" Brownie disaster response while praising the thoroughness and transparency of the secret Saudi investigation of events Khashoggi close the case and everybody forgets about it. Tee hee, haha, and ridicule, but keep in mind that it was not a command of World politics, experential acumen, or an encyclopedic knowledge of geography that put Trump where he is but and excellent command of MSM manipulation. "The more things change, the more they stay the same," eh?
/
 
You forget,our intelligence agencies are not to be believed, the Prince said he didn't do it. That's good enough for the great pumpkin...

You forget History it was our intelligence that said Iraq had WMD, thus started the war with Iraq. Had our intelligence got it right there would have been no Iraq war.
 
You forget History it was our intelligence that said Iraq had WMD, thus started the war with Iraq. Had our intelligence got it right there would have been no Iraq war.

You misremember "history". In-country inspectors were finding occasional spent weapons, but nothing resembling an active program, while Bush chuntered about secret plots and stockpiles.
 
You forget History it was our intelligence that said Iraq had WMD, thus started the war with Iraq. Had our intelligence got it right there would have been no Iraq war.

You misremember "history". In-country inspectors were finding occasional spent weapons, but nothing resembling an active program, while Bush chuntered about secret plots and stockpiles.

The decision to invade Iraq preceded the intelligence. It did not follow it.
 
By their aggression, the Iranians have brought into being a de facto Israeli-Saudi alliance.

Iran's "aggression" has long been exaggerated and taken out of context. Iran's concern is Israel and the Shi'a. In fact, despite Khomeini's anti-Israeli rhetoric since the 1950s, it wasn't until after Israel tossed into the Lebanese Civil War and after the Islamic Revolution that Iranians really even started to care about Israel. Another fact, it wasn't until after the U.S. proved that it really could not protect the Shi'a population in Iraq from Sunni extremists that Iran began funding Shia's militias, in which some targeted Americans. And virtually all of Iran's moves are geopolitical within its own region; and it is no more (even far less) aggressive than Israel or the various Sunni governments (Saudi, Qatar, Egypt, etc.), both of which have respectively invaded neighbors on a constant basis and funded Islamist extremism.

- Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq invaded the newly independent Israel in 1948.
- Israel, France, and Britain invaded Egypt in 1956.
- Israel invaded Egypt in 1967 (because the Soviets fed Nasser bad Intel in which raised tensions).
- The Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in 1979.
- Iraq invaded Iran in 1980.
- Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982.
- Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1991.
- Saudi-created Islamists joined with Egyptian-created Islamists and gave the world 9/11.
- The U.S. invaded Afghanistan in 2001.
- The U.S. invaded Iraq in 2003.

Do you see what is missing in all of this history of invasions and regional instability? -Iran...invading anybody.

And when it comes to funding Islamist activity, Saudi Arabia and Qatar (especially now) have long become the major players that sew discord in democratic and even Sunni governments everywhere. During the Arab Spring, Qatar quickly learned the benefits of being an economic benefactor towards Islamist agitation while the U.S. completely buried its head and allowed the vastly-large democratic movement to fend for itself because our Senate would rather be ignorant and Obama weakly struggled between supporting or not supporting our dictators. Virtually all of the extremist organizations from west Africa to Afghanistan are Sunni inspired, not Shi'a.

Iran is the "enemy" only for two reasons:

1) For the U.S., it goes back to our long-held 1979 Hostage Crisis grudge, which actually contradicts our government's clandestine relationship with Iran in the 1980s (Iran-Contra) and the CIA's brief 2000~2001 collaboration against the Taliban and al-Qaeda. And even after the largest candle-lit vigil in the Middle East over the 9/11 victims was held in Tehran, not Israel or Saudi Arabia, Bush goes ahead an announced that Iran is a member of the Axis of Evil in 2002. And why? Because of reason number 2...

2) With eighteen of the 9/11 terrorists being Saudi Arabian, and all of them being Sunni, Bush sought to distract the American people. Some, even to this day try to argue that it was Iran that was behind 9/11, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Ever since the Islamic Revolution and the Hostage Crisis, U.S. Presidents and the major news outlets have exaggerated Iran's activity against the U.S. and all along Saudi Arabia and Israel have been there to encourage this ignorance. Major U.S. news outlets spent the first few days after the 1993 WTC bombing blaming Iran with absolutely no evidence. They even spent the first two days after the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 making declarations that it was probably Arabs, and most certainly Iran (making no attempt to differentiate). So when Bush makes his arbitrary "Axis of Evil" speech, even after Iran had spent years and years financing Massoud's Northern Alliance against the Taliban and al-Qaeda, the American people shift off of Saudi Arabia and Israel got the satisfaction that their enemy (Iran) remains America's enemy.

But every time Iran proves that it is a player within its own region, and with its own foreign policy, we take bits and pieces as "proof" in order to secure this continued game of scapegoating.
 
Iran's "aggression" has long been exaggerated and taken out of context. Iran's concern is Israel and the Shi'a. In fact, despite Khomeini's anti-Israeli rhetoric since the 1950s, it wasn't until after Israel tossed into the Lebanese Civil War and after the Islamic Revolution that Iranians really even started to care about Israel. Another fact, it wasn't until after the U.S. proved that it really could not protect the Shi'a population in Iraq from Sunni extremists that Iran began funding Shia's militias, in which some targeted Americans. And virtually all of Iran's moves are geopolitical within its own region; and it is no more (even far less) aggressive than Israel or the various Sunni governments (Saudi, Qatar, Egypt, etc.), both of which have respectively invaded neighbors on a constant basis and funded Islamist extremism.

- Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq invaded the newly independent Israel in 1948.
- Israel, France, and Britain invaded Egypt in 1956.
- Israel invaded Egypt in 1967 (because the Soviets fed Nasser bad Intel in which raised tensions).
- The Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in 1979.
- Iraq invaded Iran in 1980.
- Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982.
- Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1991.
- Saudi-created Islamists joined with Egyptian-created Islamists and gave the world 9/11.
- The U.S. invaded Afghanistan in 2001.
- The U.S. invaded Iraq in 2003.

Do you see what is missing in all of this history of invasions and regional instability? -Iran...invading anybody.

And when it comes to funding Islamist activity, Saudi Arabia and Qatar (especially now) have long become the major players that sew discord in democratic and even Sunni governments everywhere. During the Arab Spring, Qatar quickly learned the benefits of being an economic benefactor towards Islamist agitation while the U.S. completely buried its head and allowed the vastly-large democratic movement to fend for itself because our Senate would rather be ignorant and Obama weakly struggled between supporting or not supporting our dictators. Virtually all of the extremist organizations from west Africa to Afghanistan are Sunni inspired, not Shi'a.

Iran is the "enemy" only for two reasons:

1) For the U.S., it goes back to our long-held 1979 Hostage Crisis grudge, which actually contradicts our government's clandestine relationship with Iran in the 1980s (Iran-Contra) and the CIA's brief 2000~2001 collaboration against the Taliban and al-Qaeda. And even after the largest candle-lit vigil in the Middle East over the 9/11 victims was held in Tehran, not Israel or Saudi Arabia, Bush goes ahead an announced that Iran is a member of the Axis of Evil in 2002. And why? Because of reason number 2...

2) With eighteen of the 9/11 terrorists being Saudi Arabian, and all of them being Sunni, Bush sought to distract the American people. Some, even to this day try to argue that it was Iran that was behind 9/11, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Ever since the Islamic Revolution and the Hostage Crisis, U.S. Presidents and the major news outlets have exaggerated Iran's activity against the U.S. and all along Saudi Arabia and Israel have been there to encourage this ignorance. Major U.S. news outlets spent the first few days after the 1993 WTC bombing blaming Iran with absolutely no evidence. They even spent the first two days after the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 making declarations that it was probably Arabs, and most certainly Iran (making no attempt to differentiate). So when Bush makes his arbitrary "Axis of Evil" speech, even after Iran had spent years and years financing Massoud's Northern Alliance against the Taliban and al-Qaeda, the American people shift off of Saudi Arabia and Israel got the satisfaction that their enemy (Iran) remains America's enemy.

But every time Iran proves that it is a player within its own region, and with its own foreign policy, we take bits and pieces as "proof" in order to secure this continued game of scapegoating.

Iran sponsored the 1983 bombings of the US Marine barracks and US Embassy in Lebanon.
Iran sponsors Hezbollah to project power and carry out aggression.
 
Iran sponsored the 1983 bombings of the US Marine barracks and US Embassy in Lebanon.
Iran sponsors Hezbollah to project power and carry out aggression.

Iran sponsors Hezbollah, as a means to protect Shia muslims from what has been traditionally oppressive Sunni (or in Lebanon Christian/Sunni Muslim) oppressive states. Looking at Iran's FP, the majority of it has been focused on supporting Shia populations. From the Hazari in Afghanistan, the Houthis in Yemen, the Shia's population in Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon. The only major exception to this are the Palestinians who are predominately Sunni
 
Iran sponsors Hezbollah, as a means to protect Shia muslims from what has been traditionally oppressive Sunni (or in Lebanon Christian/Sunni Muslim) oppressive states. Looking at Iran's FP, the majority of it has been focused on supporting Shia populations. From the Hazari in Afghanistan, the Houthis in Yemen, the Shia's population in Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon. The only major exception to this are the Palestinians who are predominately Sunni

You forgot the part about destroying Israel.

From the inception of Hezbollah to the present,[SUP][40][/SUP][SUP][101][/SUP] the elimination of the State of Israel has been one of Hezbollah's primary goals. Some translations of Hezbollah's 1985 Arabic-language manifesto state that "our struggle will end only when this entity [Israel] is obliterated".[SUP][40][/SUP] According to Hezbollah's Deputy-General, Naim Qassem, the struggle against Israel is a core belief of Hezbollah and the central rationale of Hezbollah's existence.[SUP][102][/SUP]
 
You misremember "history". In-country inspectors were finding occasional spent weapons, but nothing resembling an active program, while Bush chuntered about secret plots and stockpiles.

Sorry the intelligence was dead wrong. Thus if they got it right there would not be an Iraq war. Period
 
In the Don Cheeto world of alternative facts, it would be premature to take a definitive position until all political impacts are reviewed, donatons to PACs and Super PACs need be reviewed, diversion of MSM attention to Hondurans in Mexico need be reviewed, identification of events that could be used to divert MSM attention or creation of same meed be reviewed, and then and then invoke the spirit of GWBush and "Helluva job" Brownie disaster response while praising the thoroughness and transparency of the secret Saudi investigation of events Khashoggi close the case and everybody forgets about it. Tee hee, haha, and ridicule, but keep in mind that it was not a command of World politics, experential acumen, or an encyclopedic knowledge of geography that put Trump where he is but and excellent command of MSM manipulation. "The more things change, the more they stay the same," eh?
/

If push comes to shove, I have absolutely no doubt that the Saudis will arrest, charge, try, convict, and (at least appear to) execute some people as a result of this incident.

Whether those people were actually involved and whether the executions actually took place are going to be things which can never be determined with any certainty.

Mr. Trump will, of course, praise the Saudis for their through investigation, strict adherence to the rule of law, and 'powerful statement' that such behaviour is not tolerated by any civilized country.

That will be followed by a rather large Saudi investment in American real estate and/or military hardware.
 
The Bush administration came into office determined to invade Iraq. Please see The Price of Loyalty by Paul O'Neill.

I've been doing some research and find myself corrected. No doubt that the Bush administration was hell bent on invading Iraq.
 
You forget History it was our intelligence that said Iraq had WMD, thus started the war with Iraq. Had our intelligence got it right there would have been no Iraq war.

Just a couple of points here:

  1. ... it was our intelligence that said Iraq had WMD ...
    • The US intelligence reports said that there was a CHANCE that Iraq MIGHT have SOME weapons of mass destruction BUT that the evidence was fragmentary, unreliable, and inconclusive.
  2. ... thus started the war with Iraq ...
    • The President of the United States of America had discussed how it might be possible to justify invading Iraq before the WTC/Pentagon mass murders and long before the (now admitted to have been highly "cherry picked") US intelligence reports said that there was a CHANCE that Iraq MIGHT have SOME weapons of mass destruction BUT that the evidence was fragmentary, unreliable, and inconclusive.
  3. ... Had our intelligence got it right there would have been no Iraq war. ...
    • Well, at least not on THAT basis.
 
Last edited:
Iran sponsored the 1983 bombings of the US Marine barracks and US Embassy in Lebanon.

Absolutely not. This is exactly the intellectual habit and acceptance-without-question that I talked about in my last post. There is absolutely no evidence that Iran was behind 1983; and plenty of evidence that points towards Iran being as shocked as the U.S....

- In 1983, Hezbollah was not even fully formed; and its make-up at the time included offshoots and rogue players that were still coming together and working with other governments.

- We know that IJO (Islamic Jihad Organization) was the perpetrator. This extremist group was very active during the Lebanese Civil War and took responsibility for a number of kidnappings, assassinations, and bombings of embassies and peacekeeping troops.

- Directly after the Beirut Bombing in 1983, Iran's mujtahids in Tehran and Qom were so shocked that they issued a fatwa, outlawing suicide bombing within Shi'a Islam, which is why we predominantly see this terrorist tactic more from the Sunni today.

- In 1985, Reagan, and to a large part Marine Colonel Oliver North, initiated the Iran-Contra scandal which saw weapons go to Iran through Israel. Obviously, those in power knew better than the average American who allowed the media circus to run wild with Iran accusations over 1983.

- The IJO screwed up in 1986 when they abducted Soviet diplomats. The Soviet Union applied pressure on the Syrian and Lebanese governments, as well as the Shi'ite Amal militia at the Shia quarters of West Beirut to bring a steady decline to IJO. But if Iran was behind the Beirut Bombing, thus issuing orders to IJO, why would the Soviet Union not apply pressure to Iran? Obviously, the KGB knew better than the average American who allowed the media circus to run wild with Iran accusations. By the way, the last recorded attack claimed by the IJO as an independent group took place in 1992, when the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, was blown up. <---Again...not Iran.

Just as in the cases in 1993 and in 1995 and again in 2001, this 1983 finger pointing had everything to do with intellectual habit and blind acceptance of stereotyping rather than actual evidence.

Iran sponsors Hezbollah to project power and carry out aggression.

And? Among all the world's international players who carry out aggression while projecting power, Iran alone is supposed sit on its hands and simply watch its own region while the U.S., the Russians, the Sunni governments, and Israel have fun? Context. But, notice how little we Americans speak of Iran's projection of power across its borders during the 1990s to combat al-Qaeda and the Taliban; while we continued military and economic aid to Pakistan, which supported the Taliban.

And aggression against who? We are not Israel. Israel is not a fifty-first state. We have allies all over the world and many of them have enemies. But Israel was fine feeding Iran weapons in 1985, wasn't it?
 
Last edited:
Absolutely not. This is exactly the intellectual habit and acceptance-without-question that I talked about in my last post. There is absolutely no evidence that Iran was behind 1983; and plenty of evidence that points towards Iran being as shocked as the U.S....

- In 1983, Hezbollah was not even fully formed; and its make-up at the time included offshoots and rogue players that were still coming together and working with other governments.

- We know that IJO (Islamic Jihad Organization) was the perpetrator. This extremist group was very active during the Lebanese Civil War and took responsibility for a number of kidnappings, assassinations, and bombings of embassies and peacekeeping troops.

- Directly after the Beirut Bombing in 1983, Iran's mujtahids in Tehran and Qom were so shocked that they issued a fatwa, outlawing suicide bombing within Shi'a Islam, which is why we predominantly see this terrorist tactic more from the Sunni today.

- In 1985, Reagan, and to a large part Marine Colonel Oliver North, initiated the Iran-Contra scandal which saw weapons go to Iran through Israel. Obviously, those in power knew better than the average American who allowed the media circus to run wild with Iran accusations over 1983.

- The IJO screwed up in 1986 when they abducted Soviet diplomats. The Soviet Union applied pressure on the Syrian and Lebanese governments, as well as the Shi'ite Amal militia at the Shia quarters of West Beirut to bring a steady decline to IJO. But if Iran was behind the Beirut Bombing, thus issuing orders to IJO, why would the Soviet Union not apply pressure to Iran? Obviously, the KGB knew better than the average American who allowed the media circus to run wild with Iran accusations. By the way, the last recorded attack claimed by the IJO as an independent group took place in 1992, when the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, was blown up. <---Again...not Iran.

Just as in the cases in 1993 and in 1995 and again in 2001, this 1983 finger pointing had everything to do with intellectual habit and blind acceptance of stereotyping rather than actual evidence.



And? Among all the world's international players who carry out aggression while projecting power, Iran alone is supposed sit on its hands and simply watch its own region while the U.S., the Russians, the Sunni governments, and Israel have fun? Context. But, notice how little we Americans speak of Iran's projection of power across its borders during the 1990s to combat al-Qaeda and the Taliban; while we continued military and economic aid to Pakistan, which supported the Taliban.

And aggression against who? We are not Israel. Israel is not a fifty-first state. We have allies all over the world and many of them have enemies. But Israel was fine feeding Iran weapons in 1985, wasn't it?

BS. In 1983 I was on active service. There is no doubt whatsoever that Iran was behind the 1983 bombings, and much else besides.
 
UPDATE

From Associated Press

The Latest: Trump calls Khashoggi killing a 'total fiasco'

11:55 p.m.

U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo says the Trump administration is revoking the visas of some Saudi officials implicated in the death of writer Jamal Khashoggi.

Pompeo announced the step at a State Department news conference Tuesday. Vice President Mike Pence said earlier that Khashoggi’s death at Saudi Arabia’s consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, “will not go without an American response.”

The visa revocations are the first punitive measures taken by the administration against the Saudis since Khashoggi disappeared after entering the consulate on Oct. 2.

Visa records are considered confidential and Pompeo did not say which or how many Saudi officials would have their visas revoked. Saudi authorities have detained 18 people in connection with Khashoggi’s death, which officials say was accidental despite Turkish allegations that Khashoggi was intentionally killed.

___

11:15 p.m.

President Donald Trump is criticizing the Saudi operation that killed journalist Jamal Khashoggi, calling it one of the “worst cover-ups in the history of cover-ups.”

Trump tells reporters in the Oval Office that he’s expecting a full report on the killing soon.

But he says, “They had a very bad original concept” and it was “carried out poorly.”

He calls the events after Khashoggi’s death “the worst cover-up ever.”

Saudi Arabia has claimed Khashoggi, a writer for The Washington Post who wrote critically about Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, died accidentally in a brawl at the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul on Oct. 2.

But Turkish officials say a 15-men team tortured, killed and dismembered the writer and say Saudi officials had planned the killing for days.

COMMENT:-


But it was the very best credible worst cover-up ever.
 
Back
Top Bottom