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20 killed in Schoharie limousine crash

JANFU said:
https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/20-killed-in-Schoharie-limousine-crash-13288015.php

Reports are the Limo had a wedding party in it.

20 dead, confirmed.
Click to expand...

Questions:

  1. Why was a limousine that had been certified as unsafe being operated as a limousine?
  2. Why was a driver who was not certified as being able to drive the limousine driving the limousine?
  3. How many passengers was the limousine licensed for?
  4. How many days will elapse before the families file suit against the limousine company?
  5. How many days will elapse before the limousine company files bankruptcy papers?
  6. How long will it take for someone to blame this whole thing on
    • Mr. Trump,
    • Ms. Clinton,
    • Mr. Obama,
    • some Muslim terrorist group, and or
    • drugs?
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
What sounds bad to me is that the 1st Limo broke down, so the company sent this Limo as a replacement. I'm not a lawyer, and all of this is just speculation and guesses:

But if this Limo was just sitting in their lot, not being used because it failed its inspection last month, but in a pinch because the 1st Limo broke down the owners sent this one KNOWING it failed inspection and it wasn't safe... IMO there's got to be criminal charges too.
Click to expand...

I'm sure the state is checking into doing exactly that.
 
Without saying specifically how it failed inspection it might not mean a whole lot. In Utah they until very recently mandated inspections. If your windshield wiper fluid didn't squirt, you failed. Most cracks in a windshield would fail you. If your defroster didn't work, you failed.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Questions:

  1. Why was a limousine that had been certified as unsafe being operated as a limousine?
  2. Why was a driver who was not certified as being able to drive the limousine driving the limousine?
  3. How many passengers was the limousine licensed for?
  4. How many days will elapse before the families file suit against the limousine company?
  5. How many days will elapse before the limousine company files bankruptcy papers?
  6. How long will it take for someone to blame this whole thing on
    • Mr. Trump,
    • Ms. Clinton,
    • Mr. Obama,
    • some Muslim terrorist group, and or
    • drugs?
Click to expand...

The limo driver would (at least under federal guidelines for interstate travel) need a class C CDL with passenger endorsement for that vehicle
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Questions:

  1. Why was a limousine that had been certified as unsafe being operated as a limousine?
  2. Why was a driver who was not certified as being able to drive the limousine driving the limousine?
  3. How many passengers was the limousine licensed for?
  4. How many days will elapse before the families file suit against the limousine company?
  5. How many days will elapse before the limousine company files bankruptcy papers?
  6. How long will it take for someone to blame this whole thing on
    • Mr. Trump,
    • Ms. Clinton,
    • Mr. Obama,
    • some Muslim terrorist group, and or
    • drugs?
Click to expand...

Well the driver I think was qualified for the vehicle at least as far as the law goes, I don’t know NY state law but most states follow federal guidelines (although that’s not required for intrastate travel) and those are any vehicle carrying in excess of 15 people for hire needs a driver with a CDL and passenger endorsement. If the same vehicle were carrying 15 or fewer only a regular drivers license is required.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Questions:

  1. Why was a limousine that had been certified as unsafe being operated as a limousine?
  2. Why was a driver who was not certified as being able to drive the limousine driving the limousine?
  3. How many passengers was the limousine licensed for?
  4. How many days will elapse before the families file suit against the limousine company?
  5. How many days will elapse before the limousine company files bankruptcy papers?
  6. How long will it take for someone to blame this whole thing on
    • Mr. Trump,
    • Ms. Clinton,
    • Mr. Obama,
    • some Muslim terrorist group, and or
    • drugs?
Click to expand...

6D) Kind of?

Limousine Owner Had Shoddy Record and Shady Dealings

A driver with an improper license. A limousine company with a trail of failed inspections and ties to a scheme to illegally obtain driver’s licenses. And a limousine itself that had also been deemed unsafe.

Two days after a devastating limousine crash in upstate New York that killed 20 people, officials revealed new details about their inquiry that suggested that the trip never should have been allowed to happen.

The mounting questions about the accident increasingly centered on the limousine company, Prestige Limousine, which had a shoddy record, operated out of a back room in a low-budget hotel and had a history of suspicious dealings that seemed to extend to Dubai. On Monday, officials moved to suspend the company’s operations and seize its vehicles.

Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo told reporters that the limousine involved in the accident had failed an inspection last month and “was not supposed to be on the road.”

In all, Prestige had three vehicles and had repeatedly failed inspections, officials said.

The owner of the limousine company, Shahed Hussain, has the same name and address as that of a former informant for the F.B.I. who has testified in two prominent terrorism cases, according to public records. A law enforcement official suggested that his son may operate the limousine company.

The company is based at the Crest Hotel and Suites in Gansevoort, N.Y., a small town north of Albany, and On Monday, state troopers were at the hotel. The State Police said they had seized three vehicles, including another limousine, from the company and believed that Mr. Hussain was outside of the United States.

Arnie Cornett, the manager at the hotel, confirmed that the State Police were looking for the owner of the hotel and limousine company. Mr. Cornett identified the owner only as “Malik” and said he lived in Dubai. Mr. Hussain, the informant, went by Malik when he helped the F.B.I. infiltrate a mosque in Albany.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/08/nyregion/prestige-limousine-crash-schoharie.html
 
Lursa said:
They were going to a birthday party at a brewery. It seems like everyone in that limo was being extremely responsible...by renting a limo and not drinking and driving.

Story still out on why it happened but it seems like possibly a medical emergency with the (not properly licensed) driver combined with high speed.
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Known bad mechanical condition and not properly certified driver is what I heard, which is gross irresponsibility. That is what happens when societies crash, one can no longer trust that others are even trying to do things right, and people die.
 
TV news last night reported the owner of the company, presently in Pakistan, had been an informant for the FBI in one of their stings against muslims. I wonder if he received favorable treatment in his business application?
 
Thoreau72 said:
TV news last night reported the owner of the company, presently in Pakistan, had been an informant for the FBI in one of their stings against muslims. I wonder if he received favorable treatment in his business application?
Click to expand...

If true, then yes.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Known bad mechanical condition and not properly certified driver is what I heard, which is gross irresponsibility. That is what happens when societies crash, one can no longer trust that others are even trying to do things right, and people die.
Click to expand...

Looking at your original quote, you werent referring to the technicians who worked on the vehicle.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Known bad mechanical condition and not properly certified driver is what I heard, which is gross irresponsibility. That is what happens when societies crash, one can no longer trust that others are even trying to do things right, and people die.
Click to expand...

It's unfettered capitalism in action. The original vehicle the clients were in (a bus) broke down. The manager of the limo company then had a choce to make: lose the clients and refund their money, or, send them another vehicle. It just so happened that the only vehicle on the lot that could possible seat 17 people was a piece of crap that failed inspection. So, time to choose--give up the revenue or roll the dice. It just came up snake eyes is all.

That's why we need regulations and (GASP!) laws protecting consumers.
 
calamity said:
It's unfettered capitalism in action. That's why we need regulations and (GASP!) laws protecting consumers.
Click to expand...

Seems more like what we have for 'gun control.' Completely adequate laws...that get ignored and/or not enforced.

THe vehicle had failed inspection and an improperly licensed driver was at the wheel.

sound familiar? What laws would you suggest to correct the failures here?

Always people want MORE laws...and dont bother to examine why the ones they have arent working.
 
To those familiar with the area, I have a question.

Reports are that the party was heading to Cooperstown. But, C-Town is North of I-88. The vehicle was heading south on US 30, which is south of I-88 and nowhere near Cooperstown, NY.

Is there something I am missing here?
 
Lursa said:
Seems more like what we have for 'gun control.' Completely adequate laws...that get ignored and/or not enforced.

THe vehicle had failed inspection and an improperly licensed driver was at the wheel.

sound familiar? What laws would you suggest to correct the failures here?

Always people want MORE laws...and dont bother to examine why the ones they have arent working.
Click to expand...

It looks like what we are seeing is an inefficient bureaucracy in action.

You might find "How Much Bureaucracy is a Good Thing in Government and Business?" interesting.

Pournelle's law of Bureaucracy

“In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control, and those dedicated to the goals the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely.”

― Jerry Pournelle
​

Agent X89A's Staffing Rule


"Every organization (especially the military) requires someone who is prepared to forge blithely ahead - despite the rules - when the rules don't make sense, but to do that successfully it is necessary for that person to actually know what the rules are and why they are in place."

- "Agent X89A
​
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
It looks like what we are seeing is an inefficient bureaucracy in action.

You might find "How Much Bureaucracy is a Good Thing in Government and Business?" interesting.

Pournelle's law of Bureaucracy

“In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control, and those dedicated to the goals the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely.”

― Jerry Pournelle
​

Agent X89A's Staffing Rule


"Every organization (especially the military) requires someone who is prepared to forge blithely ahead - despite the rules - when the rules don't make sense, but to do that successfully it is necessary for that person to actually know what the rules are and why they are in place."

- "Agent X89A
​
Click to expand...

When I'm asked what I think needs to be changed in this country, my #2 answer is always 'bureaucracy."
 
calamity said:
To those familiar with the area, I have a question.

Reports are that the party was heading to Cooperstown. But, C-Town is North of I-88. The vehicle was heading south on US 30, which is south of I-88 and nowhere near Cooperstown, NY.

Is there something I am missing here?
Click to expand...

I think they were heading South on 30, then at the T(30 and 30a) where the accident happened they were going to turn North on 30a to get to I-88, which goes to Rt. 28, then that goes right to Cooperstown.

It sounds like the long way around, but it is probably is shorter timewise. The few roads that cut across to Cooperstown which are through the Catskill mountains are mostly small country roads with 35 mph limits(add in driving a stretch Limo on those kind of roads would be pretty tough). Where I-88 is 65 mph.
 
calamity said:
It's unfettered capitalism in action. The original vehicle the clients were in (a bus) broke down. The manager of the limo company then had a choce to make: lose the clients and refund their money, or, send them another vehicle. It just so happened that the only vehicle on the lot that could possible seat 17 people was a piece of crap that failed inspection. So, time to choose--give up the revenue or roll the dice. It just came up snake eyes is all.

That's why we need regulations and (GASP!) laws protecting consumers.
Click to expand...

I have the same response to this as I do to Jordan Peterson defending capitalism, which is to point out that while we claim that we do we dont do capitalism anymore....what we have now is a mutt of an economic system, one that is run by fools who care about the wrong things and at this point barely understand or control our economic system.

Your explanation does not work.
 
Lursa said:
Looking at your original quote, you werent referring to the technicians who worked on the vehicle.
Click to expand...

I am talking about happy go lucky Americans hiring a service and trusting them but the owners and operators were untrustworthy. We cant count on each other like that anymore, this society is too trashed for that.

I have since been told that the owner is not American, and that there were past actions from him that made him not trustworthy, which muddles my point but only some.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I am talking about happy go lucky Americans hiring a service and trusting them but the owners and operators were untrustworthy. We cant count on each other like that anymore, this society is too trashed for that.

I have since been told that the owner is not American, and that there were past actions from him that made him not trustworthy, which muddles my point but only some.
Click to expand...

They used him to railroad Muslims who were not even terrorists, and in return unleashed terror on the American people by leaving him free to wreak havoc on an unsuspecting public. Witness protection does much the same thing.
 
Owner of limo in New York crash that killed 20 was 'warned not to operate the vehicle'

U.S.
Owner of limo in New York crash that killed 20 was 'warned not to operate the vehicle'
Good Morning America KARMA ALLEN, MEGHAN KENEALLY and AARON KATERSKY,Good Morning America 2 hours 9 minutes ago
Reactions Reblog on Tumblr Share Tweet Email

Owner of limo in New York crash that killed 20 was 'warned not to operate the vehicle' (ABC News)
Owner of limo in New York crash that killed 20 was 'warned not to operate the vehicle' originally appeared on abcnews.go.com

The family of the driver of the limousine that crashed in upstate New York, killing 20 people, believe the vehicle "was neither roadworthy or safe," the family's lawyers said.

The driver, Scott Lisincchia, 53, died in the accident along with the 17 others inside the car and two pedestrians. Lisincchia's wife released a statement through her lawyers, which said that the Lisincchia family is "devastated by the horrific tragedy" and "prayers go out to all the families that lost loved ones."

"They are mourning their husband, father and brother, and they are also grieving for the other innocent souls who lost their lives," the lawyers' statement reads.

Scott Lisincchia is described in the statement as "a loving and caring man who never would have knowingly put others in harm's way."

"The family believes that unbeknownst to him he was provided with a vehicle that was neither roadworthy nor safe for any of its occupants," the statement reads.

The vehicle failed a Sept. 4 safety inspection in part due to an Anti-lock breaking system (ABS) malfunction indicators for the hydraulic brake system, according to records reviewed by ABC News.

State transportation officials declined to immediately elaborate on the notation. Such a malfunction could mean that there is a problem either with the brake system or simply with the indicator light connected to said system.

The record from the Sept. 4 inspection also notes that there is a violation for “failure to correct defects noted on previous inspection report," though it did not detail those prior failures.

"The assertion that the limousine was cleared to be on the road following the September inspection is categorically false," according to a spokesperson for the New York State Department of Transportation. "The vehicle was subject to inspections and the owner was warned not to operate the vehicle; the vehicle was placed out of service."

Richard Burke, a spokesperson for the Lisinicchia family, told ABC News that Lisinicchia had previously told his wife about issues with the company's vehicles.

Burke said that Lisinicchia's wife "told me that he had complained to her regarding the condition of some of the vehicles. In fact they said that one time he was driving one of the vehicle’s and a muffler fell off with clients in the car and he had to stop the car, get out of the car, remove the muffler and move it to the side of the roadway."

Burke said that Lisinicchia had worked as a driver of trucks, tractor trailers, and dump trucks.

"He's a very safe driver. He never had any kind of accident like this," Burke said.

Both state and federal authorities are investigating the crash, which is the deadliest transportation accident in the U.S. since August 2009, according to the chief of the National Transportation Safety Board.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/community-members-friends-attend-vigil-honor-victims-deadly-133527297--abc-news-topstories.html
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
Owner of limo in New York crash that killed 20 was 'warned not to operate the vehicle'

U.S.
Owner of limo in New York crash that killed 20 was 'warned not to operate the vehicle'
Good Morning America KARMA ALLEN, MEGHAN KENEALLY and AARON KATERSKY,Good Morning America 2 hours 9 minutes ago
Reactions Reblog on Tumblr Share Tweet Email

Owner of limo in New York crash that killed 20 was 'warned not to operate the vehicle' (ABC News)
Owner of limo in New York crash that killed 20 was 'warned not to operate the vehicle' originally appeared on abcnews.go.com

The family of the driver of the limousine that crashed in upstate New York, killing 20 people, believe the vehicle "was neither roadworthy or safe," the family's lawyers said.

The driver, Scott Lisincchia, 53, died in the accident along with the 17 others inside the car and two pedestrians. Lisincchia's wife released a statement through her lawyers, which said that the Lisincchia family is "devastated by the horrific tragedy" and "prayers go out to all the families that lost loved ones."

"They are mourning their husband, father and brother, and they are also grieving for the other innocent souls who lost their lives," the lawyers' statement reads.

Scott Lisincchia is described in the statement as "a loving and caring man who never would have knowingly put others in harm's way."

"The family believes that unbeknownst to him he was provided with a vehicle that was neither roadworthy nor safe for any of its occupants," the statement reads.

The vehicle failed a Sept. 4 safety inspection in part due to an Anti-lock breaking system (ABS) malfunction indicators for the hydraulic brake system, according to records reviewed by ABC News.

State transportation officials declined to immediately elaborate on the notation. Such a malfunction could mean that there is a problem either with the brake system or simply with the indicator light connected to said system.

The record from the Sept. 4 inspection also notes that there is a violation for “failure to correct defects noted on previous inspection report," though it did not detail those prior failures.

"The assertion that the limousine was cleared to be on the road following the September inspection is categorically false," according to a spokesperson for the New York State Department of Transportation. "The vehicle was subject to inspections and the owner was warned not to operate the vehicle; the vehicle was placed out of service."

Richard Burke, a spokesperson for the Lisinicchia family, told ABC News that Lisinicchia had previously told his wife about issues with the company's vehicles.

Burke said that Lisinicchia's wife "told me that he had complained to her regarding the condition of some of the vehicles. In fact they said that one time he was driving one of the vehicle’s and a muffler fell off with clients in the car and he had to stop the car, get out of the car, remove the muffler and move it to the side of the roadway."

Burke said that Lisinicchia had worked as a driver of trucks, tractor trailers, and dump trucks.

"He's a very safe driver. He never had any kind of accident like this," Burke said.

Both state and federal authorities are investigating the crash, which is the deadliest transportation accident in the U.S. since August 2009, according to the chief of the National Transportation Safety Board.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/community-members-friends-attend-vigil-honor-victims-deadly-133527297--abc-news-topstories.html
Click to expand...

Brake failure certainly would explain what went wrong.
 
calamity said:
It's unfettered capitalism in action. The original vehicle the clients were in (a bus) broke down. The manager of the limo company then had a choce to make: lose the clients and refund their money, or, send them another vehicle. It just so happened that the only vehicle on the lot that could possible seat 17 people was a piece of crap that failed inspection. So, time to choose--give up the revenue or roll the dice. It just came up snake eyes is all.

That's why we need regulations and (GASP!) laws protecting consumers.
Click to expand...

The regulations exist, but they were evaded and ignored by the company. Was such an attitude fostered by the company's owner, a federal informant working both sides of the law? God only knows.
 
TurtleDude said:
Police Chief just said Ford excursion converted to a stretch limo.
Click to expand...

Was it Excursion or Expedition?

Excursions haven't been made for quite a few years.
 
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