[W:163]Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

Tigerace117 said:

Oh look, how you are trying the "it was a long time ago" card. What a surprise....not. :roll:

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The fact is that we are not (no matter how much Mr. Trump0 would like to change it) still living in the 1950s. After all, should we be excoriating the United States of America because it was once legal to own slaves in the US?

I don't think so, and I suspect that you don't either.

Tigerace117 said:

Oh look, the exact same argument that all sorts of genocide deniers like to use comes out. Sorry bud, but while it was a genocide, it was a mass killing, and we have a pretty ****ing damn good idea of the death count--- despite the best efforts of your heroes at suppressing the information

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The fact that many people die does not constitute "genocide". This appears to have escaped you. Genocide has to have a deliberate intent to kill specific sectors of the population.

Tigerace117 said:

And then we have a paraphrased version of the argument used to deny Soviet responsibility in the Holodomar, only flipped to China.

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What "deny responsibility"? The Chinese government was RESPONSIBLE for the deaths BUT the actions were not taken specifically with the intention to CAUSE the deaths.

Tigerace117 said:

"They didn't mean to murder so many innocent people! They were just so callous, incompetent, and psychotic that the killing continued for years without them bothering to do anything about it!" :roll:

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If the intention was NOT "to kill", then there was no intention to "murder". Even American law recognizes that point.

Tigerace117 said:

What a pathetic attempt at a defense of your heroes from you.

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"Strawman" on the internet much?

Tigerace117 said:

PS--- can you ever face the fact that no matter how many times you try, the simple fact of the matter is that the US is not morally equivalent to your beloved tyrannical countries?

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There is no doubt in my mind that "The American Dream/Ideal" is many times superior (for the type of society that I prefer to live in) than whatever "moral basis" foots other societies.

That being said, the US government is no more "morally superior" than any other (major power's) government. That you cannot tell the difference between your government, your country, and your country's professed ideals is a flaw in your education.

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

TU Curmudgeon said:

Pointing out the facts about Mr. Trump is not "whining" - although you appear to think it is.



Quite right - provided that you ignore them.



The last time that you saw me write that I thought that the regime in the PRC was a "good thing" was - never.

On the other hand, I have pointed out that the people who live in the PRC just might have a different opinion.



True.



Descending into sloganeering is NOT conducting a logical discussion - at least it isn't in my reality although it might be in yours.



Statistics are statistics and facts are facts - regardless of whether you like them or not.



Pointing out that I am skeptical (and giving the reasons for that skepticism) is neither denying that the reports might be true nor "defending" the alleged actions. Although someone who lives in a milieu where "Everyone (that I support) is **I*N*N*O*C*E*N*T** until after they have been charged, tried, convicted, exhausted all possible appeals AND after it has been 100% established that there wasn't even the slightest chance of a miscarriage of justice and everyone else is **G*U*I*L*T*Y** immediately upon the first hint of a whiff of a ghost of a suspicion that there is even the slightest possible theoretical chance of an allegation being made." probably has a different opinion.



Possibly true,



Pointing out that other cultures (and the people who live in them) have different opinions than the people who don't live in them is not handwaving away.



Neither does yours - does it?

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Except you don't "point out facts". You continually defend brutal dictatorships and tyrannical regimes, and use Trump as a convenient shield to try and deflect criticism. Case in point? The fawning youve been doing over the idea of South Korea making separate accommodations with one of the most evil regimes in human history in North Korea and your excitement at the thought of US troops pulling out of South Korea.

Yes you routinely ignore reality in favor of your delusional claims.

The last time you defended the PRC and whined about the US was.....the numerous times you've made threads doing exactly that. One of the ones I remember specifically is you defending China's aggression in the South China Sea.....oh, and this thread of course.

Yes, you've made it very clear that you think the tyrannical regime's who "think otherwise" are in the right, hence your fawning defense of them.

Unlike the regimes you defend.

Gee bud, because that was a direct respose to your "sloganeering".

Yep, facts are facts, and you not liking that the PRC has murdered huge numbers of innocent people means nothing.

In other words, you are upset that I have pointed out the crimes of your favored regimes while debunking your delusion that the US is a moral equivalent to them. Noted.

Oh, so Chinese Christians don't count as people in "other cultures" now?

Only problem, bud, is that my "personal opinion" is backed by facts.

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

TU Curmudgeon said:

The fact is that we are not (no matter how much Mr. Trump0 would like to change it) still living in the 1950s. After all, should we be excoriating the United States of America because it was once legal to own slaves in the US?

I don't think so, and I suspect that you don't either.



The fact that many people die does not constitute "genocide". This appears to have escaped you. Genocide has to have a deliberate intent to kill specific sectors of the population.



What "deny responsibility"? The Chinese government was RESPONSIBLE for the deaths BUT the actions were not taken specifically with the intention to CAUSE the deaths.



If the intention was NOT "to kill", then there was no intention to "murder". Even American law recognizes that point.



"Strawman" on the internet much?



There is no doubt in my mind that "The American Dream/Ideal" is many times superior (for the type of society that I prefer to live in) than whatever "moral basis" foots other societies.

That being said, the US government is no more "morally superior" than any other (major power's) government. That you cannot tell the difference between your government, your country, and your country's professed ideals is a flaw in your education.

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We aren't living in the 1940s anymore either. Does that mean we should just forget all about the Holocaust? Give the people who still promote Nazism a pass?

How about Turkey? We aren't living in the 1910s either. Should the Armenians just "go away"?

Your arguments for ignoring atrocities committed by a regime which is still in power are truly pathetic.

Only problem with your argument, bud, is that hundreds of thousands of Americans died to end that injustice.

How many Chinese people died to stop the tyranny of the Chinese Communists......oh wait.

Clearly your ignorance extends to basic reading as well. I knew you would be dumb enough to try that card, which is why, despite the typo(wasn't instead of was) the point remains that it was a mass killing---and certainly certain segments of the population were deliberately targeted.

And just like the Holodomar, incompetence, apathy, and malevolence are a no defense.

The fact that you are willing to spinelessly defend every tyranny which comes down the pipe is a flaw in you personally.

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

Tigerace117 said:

The fawning youve been doing over the idea of South Korea making separate accommodations with one of the most evil regimes in human history in North Korea

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Asking "What would happen if?" is not "fawning. The possibility is there and should be explored.

Tigerace117 said:

and your excitement at the thought of US troops pulling out of South Korea.

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Not only have I not said anything about US troops pulling out of the ROK, I couldn't care less if they do (or don't). If the Koreans don't want them there any more, well, that's up to the Koreans to decide.

The last time you defended the PRC and whined about the US was.....the numerous times you've made threads doing exactly that. One of the ones I remember specifically is you defending China's aggression in the South China Sea.....oh, and this thread of course.[/quote]

Since I wasn't saying (in this thread) that the Chinese were justified in what they were alleged to be doing, it's pretty difficult to see how I could be "defending" them for doing it (assuming that it is being done).

Since all I was doing with regard to the Chinese activity in the South China Sea was pointing out that they had every legal right to be doing what they were doing, AND that the US was (in many cases) doing exactly the same thing, I guess that you could say that I was "defending" them (against charges that they had no right to be doing what they were doing).

Tigerace117 said:

Yes, you've made it very clear that you think the tyrannical regime's who "think otherwise" are in the right, hence your fawning defense of them.

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Droppings from the south end of a north bound male bovine.

Tigerace117 said:

Yep, facts are facts, and you not liking that the PRC has murdered huge numbers of innocent people means nothing.

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As usual, you have decided to completely ignore the actual meaning of the word "murder".

Tigerace117 said:

In other words, you are upset that I have pointed out the crimes of your favored regimes while debunking your delusion that the US is a moral equivalent to them. Noted.

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I have absolutely no idea why you would think that anything that you say "upsets" me.

Tigerace117 said:

Oh, so Chinese Christians don't count as people in "other cultures" now?

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Which, of course, is NOT what I said.

Tigerace117 said:

Only problem, bud, is that my "personal opinion" is backed by facts.

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None of which you bother to produce.

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

Tigerace117 said:

We aren't living in the 1940s anymore either. Does that mean we should just forget all about the Holocaust? Give the people who still promote Nazism a pass?

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Which, of course, isn't what I said at all - not even close.

Using your "logic" we should still be punishing the Germans for what their forefathers (and, lest I upset you with the use of such a sexist term, foremothers) did.

And, of course, everyone should be punishing the Americans for what they did to the Native Americans (but I won't mention that because i don't want to upset you).

Tigerace117 said:

How about Turkey? We aren't living in the 1910s either. Should the Armenians just "go away"?

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Are the Turks still killing Armenians?

Tigerace117 said:

Your arguments for ignoring atrocities committed by a regime which is still in power are truly pathetic.

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Does the term "American Indian" have any meaning to you?

Tigerace117 said:

Only problem with your argument, bud, is that hundreds of thousands of Americans died to end that injustice.

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Which one, the Nazis?

Did you know that during WWII a grand total of approximately 0.32% of the US population died as a result of that war? Did you know that during WWII a grand total of approximately 0.38% of the Canadian population died as a result of that war? Did you know that during WWII a grand total of approximately 0.94% of the UK population died as a result of that war? Did you know that during WWII a grand total of approximately 13.7% of the Soviet Union population died as a result of that war? Did you know that during WWII a grand total of approximately 3.38% of the Chinese population died as a result of that war? Do you know which is the greater percentage of

1. ____ 0.32%
2. ____ 0.38%
3. ____ 0.94
4. ____ 3.38%
5. ____ 13.7%

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

Tigerace117 said:

How many Chinese people died to stop the tyranny of the Chinese Communists......oh wait.

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Approximately 1,500,000 soldiers of the KMT died in the unsuccessful attempt to prevent the CCP ousting Generalissimo Chiang Kai Chek.

You might find


and


interesting - assuming that you are actually interested in learning something.

Tigerace117 said:

Clearly your ignorance extends to basic reading as well. I knew you would be dumb enough to try that card, which is why, despite the typo(wasn't instead of was) the point remains that it was a mass killing---and certainly certain segments of the population were deliberately targeted.

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But not for death.

Tigerace117 said:

And just like the Holodomar, incompetence, apathy, and malevolence are a no defense.

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There was nothing incompetent or apathetic about the Nazi's killing of around 15,000,000 people (I'll agree that there was malevolence). The difference between what happened in the Third Reich under the Nazis and what happened in "The Great Leap Forward" under the CCP was that the PRIMARY intention of the Nazis was "killing" and that "killing" wasn't even a minor consideration in "The Great Leap Forward" (which ended up being neither "great", "a leap", nor "forward")

Tigerace117 said:

The fact that you are willing to spinelessly defend every tyranny which comes down the pipe is a flaw in you personally.

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Reminds me of the old law school adage "When the facts are against you, argue the law. When the law is against you, argue the facts. When both the facts and the law are against you, jump up and down and call the other side names.".

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

TU Curmudgeon said:

If I were to agree with your "murdered" - and I don't - then the way of assessing the murderousness of a regime can NOT be determined simply by how many people die per year, but the INTENT of the regime has to be considered.

The Nazis DID "INTEND TO KILL" the 15,000,000 which they killed. The Chinese DID NOT "INTEND TO KILL" however many people died because of (disasterously) incorrect economic policies (that were INTENDED to improve the lot of the average Chinese).

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Here is my rebuttal to you, TU Curmudgeon: Tens of millions of people do not die as a result of some well-intentioned "mistake." Your statement presumes a couple things which I do not think have any basis in reality either now or then. First, it presumes that the Chinese Communists were not originally intent on establishing a worker's state in which the means of production would be collectivized, i.e. that they were not intentional in seizing all resources within China and controlling the production and distribution of goods and services. Secondly, it presumes that Mao Zedong and his coterie were fundamentally humanitarians at heart who genuinely cared about the lives people under their rule and would never willingly wish to sacrifice anyone in the service of creating an earthly utopia. I think charitably imputing such saintly motivations in retrospect is utterly ahistorical. I would argue that the Communists viewed the people who died as acceptable sacrifices in order to achieve a properly collectivized, socialistic society. It was no more an "accident" than the United States creating reservations for Native Americans and forcing them off their homelands, leading thousands to die of starvation, disease and exposure was an "accident." It was seen as a necessity by the government perpetrating the atrocities to create a more "perfect" society free of conflict with the Indians yet giving them their own land under Federal control.

Second, to the point of it not being murder because we do not have evidence of some kind of Chinese Communist Wannsee Conference (not yet, anyway) and a direct intent of the government to engage in mass murder of its citizens, I would argue that the Chinese government was uncaring about the plight of the people and that is just as good as the intent to murder. After all, they did not reverse the policy due to the starvation of tens of millions of citizens, but because of the loss of economic output and productivity. I would argue that if your government takes your family's food and prevents you from getting anymore through collectivization or forced industrial policies, your government may as well have taken you and your family and machine-gunned you all in shallow graves. One could argue that it is more humane than the slow, painful death that comes with starvations.

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

You do know that burning Bibles in China only adds to its current air pollution problem, right?

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

Felis Leo said:

Here is my rebuttal to you, TU Curmudgeon: Tens of millions of people do not die as a result of some well-intentioned "mistake."

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Really?

Did you know that over 36,000,000 people died as a result of WWI - which was a war that none of the participants wanted, but which was inevitable due to a "well intentioned mistake". Do you know what that "well intentioned mistake" was?

Felis Leo said:

Your statement presumes a couple things which I do not think have any basis in reality either now or then. First, it presumes that the Chinese Communists were not originally intent on establishing a worker's state in which the means of production would be collectivized, i.e. that they were not intentional in seizing all resources within China and controlling the production and distribution of goods and services. Secondly, it presumes that Mao Zedong and his coterie were fundamentally humanitarians at heart who genuinely cared about the lives people under their rule and would never willingly wish to sacrifice anyone in the service of creating an earthly utopia. I think charitably imputing such saintly motivations in retrospect is utterly ahistorical.

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Your idea of what my "presumptions" are/were is incorrect. The Communists in China were intent on doing exactly what you said I presumed they were not intent on doing.

Felis Leo said:

I would argue that the Communists viewed the people who died as acceptable sacrifices in order to achieve a properly collectivized, socialistic society.

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That may well be the case. However the KMT had exactly the same view of the acceptability of sacrificing the people of China.

Felis Leo said:

It was no more an "accident" than the United States creating reservations for Native Americans and forcing them off their homelands, leading thousands to die of starvation, disease and exposure was an "accident."

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There was a difference in "intention" between the two. The "intention" of the US government was the total elimination of the Native Indian population so that "Whites" could own the land for the betterment of individual "Whites". The "intention" of the CCP was the revolutionizing of Chinese society so that the Chinese people could own the land for the betterment of the Chinese people as a whole.

Felis Leo said:

It was seen as a necessity by the government perpetrating the atrocities to create a more "perfect" society free of conflict with the Indians yet giving them their own land under Federal control.

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I guess that you don't see the basic absurdity of "giving them their own land under (the control of people over whom they had no control)" which is what "giving them their own land under Federal control" actually means.

Felis Leo said:

Second, to the point of it not being murder because we do not have evidence of some kind of Chinese Communist Wannsee Conference (not yet, anyway) and a direct intent of the government to engage in mass murder of its citizens, I would argue that the Chinese government was uncaring about the plight of the people ...

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There is a difference between "accepting the reality of what happened to the people (individually)" and "being uncaring about the plight of the people (collectively)".

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

Felis Leo said:

...and that is just as good as the intent to murder.

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And, for those who are only able to think in simplistic terms, it might well be.

Felis Leo said:

After all, they did not reverse the policy due to the starvation of tens of millions of citizens, but because of the loss of economic output and productivity.

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Which does sort of indicate that the "intention" had something to do with "increasing economic output and productivity" rather than "Hey, Gang, let's kill a few tens of millions of people just for fun." - doesn't it?

Or is that concept too difficult?

Felis Leo said:

I would argue that if your government takes your family's food and prevents you from getting anymore through collectivization or forced industrial policies, your government may as well have taken you and your family and machine-gunned you all in shallow graves.

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Yes you would. Of course calling a dog's tail a leg does not produce a five legged dog either.

Felis Leo said:

One could argue that it is more humane than the slow, painful death that comes with starvations.

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Indeed one could. It's also cheaper, faster, and more likely to target only the ones you want to target.

Now, here's the thing. You persist in interpreting what the Chinese government did in China in the light of what would be acceptable for the American government to do in America. That presumes that Chinese history, culture, and society are identical to American history, culture, and society. It also completely ignores the fact that China has had a "Command/Collectivist" economy/society for well over 2,000 years and that a "Command/Collectivist" economy/society is the one that the Chinese people have been raised - for generations - to accept and believe in.

By assuming that "the other guy" thinks exactly the same as you do you run the risk of completely misunderstanding what "the other guy" is likely to do. By assuming that "the other guy" is only going to "fight the short war" (because, in your society that is the only acceptable one) then you run the risk of losing "the long war" (the fighting of which is completely acceptable to "the other guy"). By "just knowing" that "the other guy" isn't willing to accept short term pain for long term gain (because that is the way that you society operates) you run the risk of your short term efforts backfiring. By thinking that "the other guy" will always put the interests of the individual ahead of the interests of society as a whole (because that's the way that the society that you live in operates) you run the risk of complete defeat.

I'd like to remind you of


and ask you to think about which category you fall into.

Do I expect that degree of introspection?

Is a bear Catholic?

PS - Did you know that the leadership of the "freedom loving, democratic" KMT (that the US government supported) was amongst the most corrupt, dictatorial, and murderous groups ever to run a country? Did you know that the leadership of the "freedom loving, democratic" KMT systematically lied to the US government about the state of China in order to persuade the US to send ever increasing amounts of money (most of which the leadership of the KMT "converted" to their own personal use?

PPS - If I were to accept your logic, then I would expect that you would be consistent and condemn the current leadership of the United States of America for what the previous leaderships of the United States of America did. Are you likely to do that? Do pigs fly?

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

PleasantValley said:

Thank you.
I get it.
You know, Tokogawa in Japan kicked all Catholics out of Japan because he considered them a rival government rather than a religion.
Baptists and others could stay.

maybe the Communists in China see Christians as some rival government too?

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"Rival authority" IMO

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

TU Curmudgeon said:

Which, of course, isn't what I said at all - not even close.

Using your "logic" we should still be punishing the Germans for what their forefathers (and, lest I upset you with the use of such a sexist term, foremothers) did.

And, of course, everyone should be punishing the Americans for what they did to the Native Americans (but I won't mention that because i don't want to upset you).



Are the Turks still killing Armenians?



Does the term "American Indian" have any meaning to you?



Which one, the Nazis?

Did you know that during WWII a grand total of approximately 0.32% of the US population died as a result of that war? Did you know that during WWII a grand total of approximately 0.38% of the Canadian population died as a result of that war? Did you know that during WWII a grand total of approximately 0.94% of the UK population died as a result of that war? Did you know that during WWII a grand total of approximately 13.7% of the Soviet Union population died as a result of that war? Did you know that during WWII a grand total of approximately 3.38% of the Chinese population died as a result of that war? Do you know which is the greater percentage of

1. ____ 0.32%
2. ____ 0.38%
3. ____ 0.94
4. ____ 3.38%
5. ____ 13.7%

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Yes, you absolutely did try the "it was a long time ago" card to defend the actions of the People's Republic of China.

We certainly wouldn't tolerate the German government actively denying the Holocaust or trying to minimize the mass killings.

Yawn. Card number one in the America basher's playbook. Your tactic is boring, unoriginal and easily debunked, especially considering that A) the US government never did anything even remotely close to the slaughter of the "Great Leap Forward" and B) the vast majority of Native Americans died of disease, rather than deliberate action.

Another lame justification from you. The Germans aren't still killing Jews either. That doesn't mean that everyone should just ignore what happened in the 1940s.

Does the term "disease" mean anything to you?

Although I do think it's downright hilarious after all the time you've spent handwaving away millions of innocent deaths that now you want to whine about "atrocities" committed against Native Americans.

Actually, the American Civil War was the one I specifically was talking about, but while we are on the topic; I wonder how many fewer people would have died if the governments you love so much hadn't actively aided and abetted Adolf Hitler's gearing up for war?

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

TU Curmudgeon said:

Approximately 1,500,000 soldiers of the KMT died in the unsuccessful attempt to prevent the CCP ousting Generalissimo Chiang Kai Chek.

You might find

Historian Odd Arne Westad says the Communists won the Civil War because they made fewer military mistakes than Chiang Kai-shek and also because in his search for a powerful centralized government, Chiang antagonized too many interest groups in China. Furthermore, his party was weakened in the war against the Japanese. Meanwhile, the Communists targeted different groups, such as peasants, and brought them to its corner.[72]

Chiang wrote in his diary in June 1948 that the KMT had failed not because of external enemies but because of rot from within.[73]

The USSR generally supported Chiang's forces. Stalin distrusted Mao, tried to block him from leadership as late as 1942, and worried that Mao would become an independent rival force in world communism.[74]

Strong American support for the Nationalists was hedged with the failure of the Marshall Mission, and then stopped completely mainly because of KMT corruption [75] (such as the notorious Yangtze Development Corporation [76] controlled by H.H. Kung and T. V. Soong's family) [77] and KMT's military setback in Northeast China.

Communist land reform policy promised poor peasants farmland from their landlords, ensuring popular support for the PLA.

The main advantage of the Chinese Communist Party was the "extraordinary cohesion" within the top level of its leadership. These skills were not only secured from defections that came about during difficult times but also coupled with "communications and top level debates over tactics". A big addition to this was the charismatic style of leadership of Mao Zedong which created a "unity of purpose" and a "unity of command" which the KMT lacked majorly. Apart from that the CPC had mastered the manipulation of local politics to their benefit, this was also derived from their propaganda skills that had also been decentralised successfully. By "portraying their opponents as enemies of all groups of Chinese" and itself as "defenders of the nation" and people (given the backdrop of the war with Japan).[78]

In the Chinese Civil War after 1945, the economy in the ROC areas collapsed because of hyperinflation and the failure of price controls by the ROC government and financial reforms; the Gold Yuan devaluated sharply in late 1948 [79] and resulted in the ROC government losing the support of the cities' middle classes. In the meantime, the Communists continued their relentless land reform (land redistribution) programs to win the support of the population in the countryside.

[SOURCE LINK]
​

and

Benjamin A. Valentino's "Final Solutions: Mass Killing and Genocide in the Twentieth Century" Cornell University Press. December 8, 2005
​

interesting - assuming that you are actually interested in learning something.




But not for death.




There was nothing incompetent or apathetic about the Nazi's killing of around 15,000,000 people (I'll agree that there was malevolence). The difference between what happened in the Third Reich under the Nazis and what happened in "The Great Leap Forward" under the CCP was that the PRIMARY intention of the Nazis was "killing" and that "killing" wasn't even a minor consideration in "The Great Leap Forward" (which ended up being neither "great", "a leap", nor "forward")

Unlike you, I am aware that the Nazis systematically murdered more than the 6,000,000 Jews that are referenced by the term "Holocaust". Would you like to tell me what percentage of the US National Holocaust Museum is devoted to the 9,000,000 NON-Jewish victims that the Nazis murdered? Is it 60%? Is it less than 60%? If it is less than 60% is it more than 6%?
​

Reminds me of the old law school adage "When the facts are against you, argue the law. When the law is against you, argue the facts. When both the facts and the law are against you, jump up and down and call the other side names.".

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Gee, that reminds me of another saying "when the facts are inconvenient, invent a lie and murder anyone who says otherwise".

Which, of course, is exactly what the regimes you love so much do.

The rest of your post--- you whining about how the US Holocaust Museum doesn't dedicate as much info to non-Jewish victims as you want; you making excuses about how you are under the delusion that the Chicoms didn't want to murder all those people; etc, etc etc; is nothing but total crap.

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

Tigerace117 said:

Yes, you absolutely did try the "it was a long time ago" card to defend the actions of the People's Republic of China.

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Pointing out that the people who did something 50 years ago are not the same people who are running things now is not "defending" anyone.

Tigerace117 said:

We certainly wouldn't tolerate the German government actively denying the Holocaust or trying to minimize the mass killings.

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Really? And what would you do about it if they did?

However, that isn't what I said at all.

What I said is that, on the basis of your logic, you should be complaining that the CURRENT German government is guilty of mass atrocities because a previous one was.

Tigerace117 said:

Yawn. Card number one in the America basher's playbook. Your tactic is boring, unoriginal and easily debunked, especially considering that A) the US government never did anything even remotely close to the slaughter of the "Great Leap Forward" and B) the vast majority of Native Americans died of disease, rather than deliberate action.

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The usual "But that's DIFFERENT!!!" position.

Tigerace117 said:

Another lame justification from you. The Germans aren't still killing Jews either. That doesn't mean that everyone should just ignore what happened in the 1940s.

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And I never said that it did.

What I did say was that you couldn't accuse the current German government of atrocities simply because a previous government committed them and you cannot accuse the current Chinese government of killing millions through its actions simply because that was the unintended consequence of the actions of a previous Chinese government.

Tigerace117 said:

Does the term "disease" mean anything to you?

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In deed it does. And it was the actual policy of the US government to "allow" the Native Americans to die out.

Tigerace117 said:

Although I do think it's downright hilarious after all the time you've spent handwaving away millions of innocent deaths that now you want to whine about "atrocities" committed against Native Americans.

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And for someone to take the position that "the past should never be forgotten and should always be used to condemn those who had nothing whatsoever to do with it" at the same time as the American past is simply ignored is - what?

Tigerace117 said:

Actually, the American Civil War was the one I specifically was talking about,

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So putting down an internal political dispute is "fighting for freedom" - OK.

Tigerace117 said:

I wonder how many fewer people would have died if the governments you love so much hadn't actively aided and abetted Adolf Hitler's gearing up for war?

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Probably a whole bunch. Of course that would have had to include firms like GE, IBM, IT&T, Dow, Ford, GM, and a raft of other American companies that owned German subsidiaries that produced war materials for the Germans up to - and right on through the end of - WWII, but I won't embarrass you by mentioning facts that you obviously don't want to learn.

PS - I wonder how often you completely ignore facts when you post, your "governments you love" type comments seem to come fast and loose. Do you use them to paper over the holes in your knowledge/logic?

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

Tigerace117 said:

Gee, that reminds me of another saying "when the facts are inconvenient, invent a lie and murder anyone who says otherwise".

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That's very good. Did you make it up all by yourself?

Tigerace117 said:

Which, of course, is exactly what the regimes you love so much do.

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Back to "Strawmanism", eh?

Tigerace117 said:

The rest of your post--- you whining about how the US Holocaust Museum doesn't dedicate as much info to non-Jewish victims as you want;

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It actually doesn't dedicate any space at all.

Tigerace117 said:

... you making excuses about how you are under the delusion that the Chicoms didn't want to murder all those people; etc, etc etc;

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If one has some actual knowledge while the other doesn't, for the one who is less knowledgeable to say that knowledge is delusion is silly.

Tigerace117 said:

is nothing but total crap.

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You are entitled to your own opinion.

What you are not entitled to is your own facts.

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

TU Curmudgeon said:

Pointing out that the people who did something 50 years ago are not the same people who are running things now is not "defending" anyone.



Really? And what would you do about it if they did?

However, that isn't what I said at all.

What I said is that, on the basis of your logic, you should be complaining that the CURRENT German government is guilty of mass atrocities because a previous one was.



The usual "But that's DIFFERENT!!!" position.



And I never said that it did.

What I did say was that you couldn't accuse the current German government of atrocities simply because a previous government committed them and you cannot accuse the current Chinese government of killing millions through its actions simply because that was the unintended consequence of the actions of a previous Chinese government.



In deed it does. And it was the actual policy of the US government to "allow" the Native Americans to die out.



And for someone to take the position that "the past should never be forgotten and should always be used to condemn those who had nothing whatsoever to do with it" at the same time as the American past is simply ignored is - what?



So putting down an internal political dispute is "fighting for freedom" - OK.



Probably a whole bunch. Of course that would have had to include firms like GE, IBM, IT&T, Dow, Ford, GM, and a raft of other American companies that owned German subsidiaries that produced war materials for the Germans up to - and right on through the end of - WWII, but I won't embarrass you by mentioning facts that you obviously don't want to learn.

PS - I wonder how often you completely ignore facts when you post, your "governments you love" type comments seem to come fast and loose. Do you use them to paper over the holes in your knowledge/logic?

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Except it is the exact same regime which conducted the mass killings which is still in charge to this day. You can whine and scream and wail and tear your hair and post a dozen threads a day moaning about how awful you think the US is---and it will never change that very simple fact.

Oh really? You think Germany is currently run by the Nazi Party? You really are hilariously bad at comprehending reality. That must come from defending North Korea for so long :lamo

Because it is, and if you can't comprehend the difference between deliberate killings and deaths from disease then you are even more historically ignorant than you had previously exposed yourself as.

Except, once again, China is ruled by the exact same party which deliberately murdered all those people.

But hey, thanks for exposing yourself so throughly. You don't seem capable of realizing how badly you've torpedoed yourself, but I suppose that's no surprise.

Oh really?

Now you are claiming the US government had a policy.....well over a hundred years before there was a United States?

Even "pathological hatred" is too mild a term for your feelings for the US.

So your position is that the People's Republic of China had nothing to do with atrocities committed by the......People's Republic of China.

Funny. You are more than willing to blame the US for anything and everything under the sun, including the deaths of people well before the US was even a thing, but there is no length you won't go to defend the PRC.

Again, I think we've found the root of your America-hatred.

So you are even more historically ignorant than you had previously shown yourself--Ok.

Gee bud, what was the "internal political dispute" about?

Let's see what delusional crap you come up with.

Ah yes, the guy who spinelessly hand waves away millions upon millions of deaths while whining about how the Holocaust Museum doesn't do enough(in his opinion) thinks he can embarrass anyone else :lamo

I wonder if you will ever grow a spine and face the facts about the regimes you love so much. I wouldn't bet on it.

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

TU Curmudgeon said:

That's very good. Did you make it up all by yourself?



Back to "Strawmanism", eh?



It actually doesn't dedicate any space at all.



If one has some actual knowledge while the other doesn't, for the one who is less knowledgeable to say that knowledge is delusion is silly.



You are entitled to your own opinion.

What you are not entitled to is your own facts.

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Actually, I do believe the men you defend so spinelessly did.

Back to whining about being called out on your support for some of the worst regimes in human history, eh?

Oh look, yet more whining. Again, the level of your unthinking hatred is truly laughable.

Yes, your delusions are rather silly.

Oh really?

Because one of the consistencies between all your favorite regimes is the fact that they firmly believe that facts are what the state says they are, and murder anyone who say otherwise.

Funny how that works.

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

Tigerace117 said:

Except it is the exact same regime which conducted the mass killings which is still in charge to this day.

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And it is "the exact same regime" which conducted the campaigns to exterminate the Native Americans in the United States of America which is still in charge to this day.

Since you appear to be unwilling to accept either facts or historical reality, there really isn't much point in continuing this discourse.

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

TU Curmudgeon said:

And it is "the exact same regime" which conducted the campaigns to exterminate the Native Americans in the United States of America which is still in charge to this day.

Since you appear to be unwilling to accept either facts or historical reality, there really isn't much point in continuing this discourse.

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That is an utterly pathetic excuse buddy. Considering the fact that disease doesn't have a "regime" you have exposed your own ignorance.....yet again.

Then we have the fact that the United States government, while certainly not treating the Native Americans well, had no intention of exterminating them, as the historical record clearly shows.

But I get it. You can't handle being called out on your support for various brutal dictatorships, and you can't handle the fact that your constant deflections towards the US have all been debunked.

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

Tigerace117 said:

That is an utterly pathetic excuse buddy.

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As before, I'm never going to be able to convince you that the United States of America is not perfect and you are never going to be able to convince me that it is so have a good day.

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

TU Curmudgeon said:

As before, I'm never going to be able to convince you that the United States of America is not perfect and you are never going to be able to convince me that it is so have a good day.

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Oh look, yet another failure from you at handling basic reality.

As I said before, the United States is not perfect, but there is no moral equivalence between it and the regimes you love so much, no matter how much you wish there was.

But yes, I know I am never going to be to convince someone who hates the US so much he whines about the the Holocaust Museum, of all places, to face reality.

Re: Chinese officials burn bibles, close churches, force Christian to denounce faith ...

Tigerace117 said:

Oh look,

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Have a good day.

From CBS News


Vatican and China make breakthrough deal on bishop appointments

VATICAN CITY — The Vatican and China said Saturday they had signed a "provisional agreement" over the appointment of bishops, a breakthrough on an issue that stymied diplomatic relations for decades and aggravated a split among Chinese Catholics. The deal resolved one of the major sticking points in recent years, with the Vatican agreeing to accept seven bishops who were previously named by Beijing without the pope's consent.

The development comes nearly seven decades after the Holy See and Beijing severed official relations. Beijing's long-held insistence that it must approve bishop appointments in China had clashed with absolute papal authority to pick bishops.

With the status of the seven bishops now reconciled, the Vatican said all bishops in China are now in communion with Rome -- even though the Catholic community in China is still split between Catholics who belong to the official Chinese church and those in the underground church who remained loyal to the pope.

"Pope Francis hopes that, with these decisions, a new process may begin that will allow the wounds of the past to be overcome, leading to the full communion of all Chinese Catholics," a Vatican statement said.

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