• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

U.S. President Trump facing a 'coup': Bannon

Wrong.

1) To pretend in this situation that the person elected to office is some kind of "evil person," …

2) I am fairly certain that if someone wrote an anonymous letter to the NYT in the same vein as the one leading to this discussion during Mr. Obama's term in office, there would be some on the Right who would certainly applaud them.

3) I am also fairly certain that most of those on the Left would be arguing MY point in such a situation.

4) I am arguing that under no circumstances short of a REAL dictatorship (ala Hitler, Stalin, Kim Jung Un, etc.) where the ideals of liberty do not at all function, do you have a valid argument on your side.

5) Nothing like that is occurring here, despite all the rhetoric otherwise. Trump at "worst" (from your perspective) will serve six more years, or at "best" (again, from your perspective) no more than two.

6) Meanwhile he is President, and if you can't serve under his Administration giving his orders full faith and credit...quit. Otherwise do...your...job! Period!

Right, Irwin!

1) In this case I don't think they are pretending.

2) But they wouldn't have had to, on his worst day President Obama acted and behaved PRESIDENTIAL.

3) So you admit that you are biased?

4)I'm arguing that IF he thought he could get away with it tRump would make himself dictator.

5) Yes, his denigration of the media and our justice system is exactly what leads to dictatorship. At worst he's already been in office two long.

6) Meanwhile our nation is one narcissistic temper tantrum from disaster.
 
Part 1 of 2 parts
With respect to your service, and always with respect to your opinions, I very much disagree with your rationale on this issue.

IMO if you are a lower echelon public employee not in the policy making hierarchy, then unless you are aware of a superiors direct violation of law and/or policy your job is to DO your job and not pick and choose how well or whether or not to do it.
you share the same confusion as senator sasse. the writing of laws is the macro version of political science. the elected officials typically pass laws that define expected outcomes rather than the nuts and bolts of how that law/outcome is going to be realized; the micro version of political science. the implementation methodology is configured by the civil servants, again using the public feedback from the federal register notice soliciting said public comments. the staff charged with implementing the laws/XOs are employed because of their expertise; their knowledge, skills, and abilities under the merit based selection system. the standard operating procedures they craft are promulgated back thru the political appointees. it is not infrequent that these political hirelings are not up to the task of assuring that the SOPs are aligned with the public policy espoused by the congress/president. in my never humble opinion they are the weak link in the process. they tend to have a better understanding of political processes than public policy principles. this misalignment of skill base results in staff sometimes achieving results that were not anticipated by the elected/appointed policy makers. lois learner and the IRS 501c4 eligibility process comes to mind in this regard, where the employees followed the SOPs but the outcomes did not match what the elected officials anticipated would result

If you ARE in the upper echelon's where policies and regulations are made, then you have an even more affirmative duty to follow the guidelines and policy decisions of the Department Secretary and the President. He/she is the Chief Executive, and Constitutionally empowered while holding office to establish whatever policies and directives necessary to enforce the laws and carry out his/her national policy goals. His Cabinet is Constitutionally approved by the Senate to act on his policy decisions
again, this tends to be the weak link when the SOPs do not match the anticipated political outcomes. the policy makers did not adequately provide for the expected outcomes. meanwhile, the implementing staff follow the misaligned SOPs. steven miller, acting IRS commissioner, comes to mind here. he was (wrongly) fired by Obama when the 501c4 practices at the IRS did not produce the outcomes expected by the politicians

YOU don't get to decide.
as a staffer charged with writing/revising the underlying standard operating procedures, and then implementing them, and training staff about how they were to be implemented, i absolutely did get to decide. i did not get to contradict what policy was intended, but in those areas where the law/XO was silent about implementation, my charge was to write the regulations to be implemented. that is where the gray areas become resident. only once in my career did i discuss matters with my agency administrator. in all other instances i had to construct the regulations anticipating an understanding about what was intended by the congress, aided by the language of the law as published in the aforementioned federal register. as an example, if the law did not specify the use of the clear and convincing standard rather than the preponderance of evidence standard, someone had to make the call. when it was my assignment, that was my call. my supervisors, both career and appointed, were provided drafts of my work providing them an opportunity to make changes they believed more appropriated configured with the outcomes expected by the law/XO. but since they were not the subject experts, they tended not to make many changes, if any
 
Part 2 of 2 parts
YOU were not elected to make those decisions. You were hired/appointed to advise and offer suggestions, but YOU don't get to modify or adjust policy simply because YOU don't agree with it.

Seriously, what would make any civil servant think that way?
from what i have written above, hopefully you will see that this was one aspect of my job, to craft standard operating procedures to be followed to implement the politicians' laws/XOs. the drafts of my work were the advice i offered to them

This is exactly what Senator Ben Sasse was referring to during the Kavanaugh hearing:



Start at 3:45 in that video.

A bunch of alphabet-soup Agencies that Congress has delegated "regulatory" powers to, with unelected civil servants making up regulations treated with the force of law.

Then some life-time civil servants working in them who see politicians come and go, and begin to think THEY are the only "stable factor," and so THEY start acting like they can ignore, or modify, or do whatever to "transient Administration" policy instructions in order to preserve what THEY think is worth it because THEY know best.

I appreciate this agreement. I am only disappointed by the above viewpoint which is part of the problem created by having these powerful Agencies who "act on behalf of the nation" regardless of who is elected to actually govern.

sasse constructed a straw man without substance. his argument is that the congress should write the law and the implementing language so that the outcomes are representative of what was expected. he insists that the congress is abdicating its responsibility to do so to the executive agencies directed by the president. but his assertion is unrealistic. it is difficult for the congress to pass the laws that it does, without an expectation for them to also construct their intricate implementing language. hell, they do not read many (most?) of the laws they pass; why should we then expect them to become even more incisive in their deliberations by effecting the implementation language in addition to the laws they do not read. that position makes no sense
 
Well, Bannon's opinions are likely to be better informed and more interesting than yours (or mine).

He also is even a bigger liar and bigot that the President. He is also into creating chaos.
 
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...dent-trump-facing-a-coup-bannon-idUSKCN1LP0DH

ROME (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump is facing a “coup”, former White House chief strategist Steve Bannon told Reuters, pointing to an anonymous column in the New York Times detailing resistance within the Trump administration.

“What you saw the other day was as serious as it can get. This is a direct attack on the institutions,” Bannon said during a flying visit to Italy. “This is a coup, okay”.
================================================================
Another opinion from someone that I tend to discount as being a white supremacist rabble-rouser with his own self-serving agenda.

No it's not a 'coup'. But it may signal the beginnings of one and the ironic thing is that it came from at the very least one of their own. A GOP conservative high level appointee and not from some secret cabal of Obama Administration "deep state' holdover bureaucrats. But really what that op-ed letter did was only confirm what we have suspected all along. That in 2016 Republican Conservatives entered into a Faustian bargain with the demented devil currently residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Arguing that ok while he is unfit for this office intellectually, morally and emotionally he has been nonetheless useful for passing other stuff we have long desired such as the tax cuts and deregulation while conniving to maneuver him away from the more 'crazy' stuff he's often inclined to propagating. Often in the wee hours of the night. Like we should be comforted by this. This isn't how it's suppose to work. You can't enable 90% of the crazy stuff coming out of this White House and then ask for credit for blocking the remaining really crazy 10%. Basically saying please don't blame us come November. We're doing the best we can. When actually much like Dr Frankenstein they are desperately trying to manage a monster of their creation.
 
you share the same confusion as senator sasse. the writing of laws is the macro version of political science. the elected officials typically pass laws that define expected outcomes rather than the nuts and bolts of how that law/outcome is going to be realized; the micro version of political science. the implementation methodology is configured by the civil servants, again using the public feedback from the federal register notice soliciting said public comments...

No, actually I am not confused. Having knowledge as an historian, via the study of Administrative law, and also a State level civil servant.

Senator Sasse was correct, as exemplified by the creation of the very first government agency, the Interstate Commerce Commission, created by the Interstate Commerce Act of 1887:

https://www.historycentral.com/documents/Interstatecommerce.html

Examine this Act you will see that there was no provision for that Agency to make any regulations. It's powers and duties were specifically listed, along with it's recourses in the event the railroads it was monitoring failed to cooperate. That was pretty much the norm up until the 1930's

Congress was very jealous of it's prerogative's, so it wasn't until FDR's administration trying to deal with a number of economic problems caused by the Great Depression in keeping with his New deal starting in 1933 that most Agencies came into being. Still it was not until the Administrative Procedures Act of 1946 that Congress established the standard legal foundation for how they could create regulations.

as a staffer charged with writing/revising the underlying standard operating procedures, and then implementing them, and training staff about how they were to be implemented, i absolutely did get to decide. i did not get to contradict what policy was intended, but in those areas where the law/XO was silent about implementation, my charge was to write the regulations to be implemented. that is where the gray areas become resident. only once in my career did i discuss matters with my agency administrator. in all other instances i had to construct the regulations anticipating an understanding about what was intended by the congress, aided by the language of the law as published in the aforementioned federal register...

Demonstrable of a very respectable level of experience, I commend you.

But I point to what I consider the important part as bolded above. The policy you wrote was founded on both Congressional guidance (the law creating the Agency+any supporting codes) and the guidance of your Administrator. Apparently that was your job, to translate that information into internal policy for THEIR approval. Does that mean everyone else in the Agency you worked for could then decide what parts they would adhere to and which ones they would not?

Or did you (and your Administrator/Director/whatever) then expect subordinates to adhere to the policy, and at the very least keep either you or your boss informed of any problems?

sasse constructed a straw man without substance. his argument is that the congress should write the law and the implementing language so that the outcomes are representative of what was expected. he insists that the congress is abdicating its responsibility to do so to the executive agencies directed by the president. but his assertion is unrealistic...

Senator Sasse was referring to exactly how it was typically done before FDR created a myriad of "Alphabet Soup" Agencies which were outside the knowledge and experience of Congressmen, and over which FDR wanted as much independent control over as was possible.

Now it has become the norm. See a problem, create a law that establishes and empowers an Agency, and then move on to the important business of raising money for re-election, dining with lobbyists, and "investigating" things requiring trips around the world. Oh, and making sure their aides keep up with tax and spend bills for them to read in summary before voting party line.

But your point about expertise applies to Congressional business, they always depend on expert advisors to "summarize" for them. They seldom try to learn about any particular issue like they used to in the simpler days before FDR (and the growth of our national economy). So, does not a sitting President also have access to not only YOUR expertise but also to outside experts willing to provide policy guidance on how to implement Presidential policies?

How does your response serve to justify undermining the policy guidance the President and his Cabinet wish to apply during his term of office? Does it make it okay that say, if someone likes President Obama's goals more than they do Trump's that justifies undermining Trump?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom