Germany calls for global payments system free of US

Godric1970 said:

About time to America has weaponized Swift ... without setting up a similar system the US can use Swift to hurt the EU economy and control our foreign policy at the same time ./... Europe needs to break free from American control and if America wants to be isolated ... then it's in the EU's best interest to set up our own financial system

Code:

https://www.ft.com/content/23ca2986-a569-11e8-8ecf-a7ae1beff35b

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That's a non-starter, but still a bad sign for how we're being perceived by our allies.

Athanasius68 said:

From what I have understood, Trump sees China, and not Russia, as the great geo-political challenge for the USA. Certainly his actions seem to imply this, regardless as to whether one agrees with the the individual actions themselves.

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I have no idea what Trump sees because Trump is incapable of explaining himself beyond a Tweet about Crooked Hillary and walls and how sad things apparently are. I have seen no sign that this outsider has any idea what he is doing other than seeing ways to temporarily introduce quick bursts of cash to select industries at a later cost that others (we) will have to pay. I think he is in over his head. And this is why...

The pivot to Asia began under Obama in 2012, because it was properly understood that the U.S. needed to shift out of intimate behaviors in the Middle East and strengthen bilateral security alliances in Asia by deepening our working relationships with emerging powers (India, South Korea, Japan, Indonesia, even China, etc.), engage with regional multilateral institutions, expand trade and investment, forge a broad-based military presence (India based, but aimed at containing China in the south), and advance democracy and human rights. The Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) was a major part of this and the aim was to decrease China's growing influence while increasing our own. But this is the problem:

- Trump **** on TPP, based on the arguments of shallow economists who insist that economics and politics remain entirely separate. Now we have nothing as China's geoeconomic machine continues to purchase political influence from Japan to Indonesia to India and everyone in between.

Besides this, Congressional aid to foreign governments continue to decrease as China increases. China has pretty much locked all of Africa. Did you know that after years of economic and political manipulation that Swaziland is the sole remaining African country that recognizes Taiwan? Taiwan is at the center of decades of America's Foreign Policy, in regards to China, as a containment, check, and launch piece; while Taiwan's independence continues to be a matter of China's "One China" Policy. China is winning because we are refusing to play the game we once mastered (when it was easy and we were the only player in town). So, how exactly is Trump addressing China's continued geoeconomic moves? By complaining about how unfair trade is between the U.S. and China? This does not address the issue at all and was better kept in phone calls between Beijing and D.C. Now, we either need to "win" or "lose" in front of the entire world, which carries consequences. But "winning" only means that the U.S. won a selfish game that only goes to the pockets of already-wealthy corporations (argued as for works) as China continues winning the long game. Doesn't Trump own Golf Courses? It's the long drives that win in the end, not the puts along the way.

Also, while we entertain ourselves with notions that Russia doesn't matter because Trump largely shrugs it off, Russia has become the nuclear Wal-Mart of the Middle East, with China as a competitor. In the meantime, Trump walked away from the Iran deal, which at least settled that issue for a decade and denied Russia and China a market. But considering the geoeconomic and geopolitical moves that both Russia and China have made in the Middle East over the years (nuclear power plant parts, technology, etc.), I'm sure Putin and Xi smiled at Trump's show of "strength" for his loyalists.

I mean, one only needs to look at the issues of TPP, the Iran deal, moving the embassy to Jerusalem, ragging on NATO and the EU, and even crapping Canada (all while wooing North Korea and Russia) that Trump appears to dismantling American influence all over the world. The attitude of "America First" and Trump's official National Security Strategy (Foreign Policy document) greatly contradict, especially when it comes to what Trump says and what he actually does. This is what happens when an outsider celebrity with a Twitter Account sits in the White House. So, I have no idea what Trump sees.

LincolnRossiter said:

That's a non-starter, but still a bad sign for how we're being perceived by our allies.

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it's a definite starter we no longer see America as a reliable ally and partner .... America is the biggest threat facing the EU

Godric1970 said:

it's a definite starter we no longer see America as a reliable ally and partner .... America is the biggest threat facing the EU

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It's not a starter because it can't work. That'd be like the Patriots taking the field and saying "let's adjust our system to exclude Brady and Belichick without viable replacements in place. Should work out fine."

It's just posturing and is indicative of the breakdown in our relationship, but there's really little way to cut the U.S. out of any facet of international finance.

LincolnRossiter said:

It's not a starter because it can't work. That'd be like the Patriots taking the field and saying "let's adjust our system to exclude Brady and Belichick without viable replacements in place. Should work out fine."

It's just posturing and is indicative of the breakdown in our relationship, but there's really little way to cut the U.S. out of any facet of international finance.

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Wrong. Create an alternative to SWIFT that the US has no power over and use that. All it needs is countries who would be willing to use it and of course even more tricky.. not having the US retaliate in some way.

We have been at this point before with the Internet domain registration... where the US abused it's power and the rest of the world forced the US out of holding ultimate power over the net.

Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk

PeteEU said:

Wrong. Create an alternative to SWIFT that the US has no power over and use that. All it needs is countries who would be willing to use it and of course even more tricky.. not having the US retaliate in some way.

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So all that's standing between this and reality is (1) a group of countries amounting to a significant bloc of global tranfers being willing to adopt the alternative system and (2) the U.S. sitting on its hands while that's being organized. Sounds simple.

We have been at this point before with the Internet domain registration...

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That's like comparing apples and hairpins. The U.S. actively works to keep maintain its power within SWIFT. Our relinquishing oversight over ICANN a couple of years ago had been in the works for years, and it's something we supported. Our "control over the internet" vis-à-vis infrastructure created here was nothing that the government ever sought.

Godric1970 said:

it's a definite starter we no longer see America as a reliable ally and partner .... America is the biggest threat facing the EU

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That is not the proper perspective at all. That is actually dangerous.

America is not the biggest threat to the EU. Russia is. America just has its head up its ass right now and has refused to see the issue at hand. It's not all Trump's fault, but he has exacerbated our blindness. In the meantime, it doesn't seem right that Europeans have a constant knack for falling in line behind strongmen (Putin, as the latest) and then looking at the U.S. for rescue. The U.S. burden is that a Europe left to itself is a Europe that sucks the world into chaos. The U.S. has forgotten that.

Godric1970 said:

contrary to belief the world doesn't revolve around America

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In a lot of ways, it does. But that's not our fault, and Germany would be worse off if we hadn't been there.

Athanasius68 said:

Well, so what do you want over there?

1. Its a problem when one country has the power to sanction a small merchant over some cigars.

2. Its a problem when one country DOESNT have the power to sanction a small merchant over some cigars.

You guys over yonder need to start deciding whether to throw in with Russia and Iran, or stay thrown in with the USA.

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We should not be needing to throw in with anyone... that is the point. You know this free trade stuff.. does not work if one country has the ability to block said trade because of its own political feelings. I have no problem with the US not wanting to trade with Iran, but it should not bully or push the rest of us who are still 100% in on the agreement with Iran. The US is the breaker of agreements.. not us. The US is at fault and is trying to bully the rest of the world... and THAT is a problem.

MSgt said:

~..............................America is not the biggest threat to the EU. Russia is. ....................~

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bears repeating.

Continuously if need be, until it sinks into the thickest of heads.

The Kremlin prefers either a EU that totally turns to Moscow or, even more, a EU that falls apart to the point of Moscow ruling what it can divide on its own doorstep.

Trump may follow similar ambitions of disruption but the Trumps come and go where the Kremlin stays what it is. Incapable of competing economically it can only pursue its ambitions of power by dissolving what it cannot compete with.

Unfortunately the EU (both in Brussels and in individual Capitals and in its habitual short-sightedness) is blinding itself to that simple fact in Chamberlainesque naïveté.

MSgt said:

The point is that we have done little to nothing to stop Russia from using state-owned companies to coerce the foreign policies of our allies.

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It feels like a circular argument - Russia is our enemy because it has difficult relations with our allies, and those countries are our allies because they have difficult relations with our enemy Russia.

I tell you what - if you wanna go fight Russia, then pick up a rifle and swim over there - I'll hold your coat. Don't drag the rest of us into your silly war "just because".

The Cold War is supposed to be over.

It's called diversification. Renewable energies cannot, and were never meant to, replace oil. The U.S. is also "gambling" on renewables because the U.S. understands that energy diversification is smart. One of the ways to alleviate the influences of OPEC and foreign governments who are chief oil exporters, is to reduce the import. Alternate energy resources do just that.

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So when you recognize that renewables can't replace oil, then recognize that relations with oil suppliers are very important, because oil continues to be important.

If you took your argument to its end, you may be able to see that special interest groups and corporations are exactly why the U.S. has largely removed geoeconimics from our Foreign Policy tool chest.

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Special interest groups are why the US continues to be at war with Russia. Special interest groups are why there was suddenly some shooting in the Maidan in Kiev, which sent their elected leader Yanuckovitch fleeing for his life.
Special interest groups are why the Democrats keep screeching to impeach Trump, screeching that he's Putin's stooge, screeching to abolish ICE and declare open borders, screeching to be nicer to dear sweet China on trade, screeching that Trump is a racist neo-nazi klan leader.

Sure, Clinton and nobody else. Isn't it odd how some people can work themselves into a stupor over Clinton's special interest dabbling, but will bow at the waist to worship Trump, who is on record for buying politicians, as a special interest, to serve his needs? I believe he even funded Hillary Clinton once. Oh, but Trump was going to "drain that swamp?" Partisanship makes us ignorant and shameless hypocrites. Remove the blinders and assess issues for what they are.

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How manipulative your are with language. Trump was buying influence (from outside the govt), while Clinton was selling it (from inside the govt). Inside vs Outside makes a difference. But what makes the key difference is that Trump's policies and decisions are completely in divergence from the past, while Hillary hasn't broken with the past at all. For Hillary to redeem herself in the eyes of the public the way Trump has, she would then have to come up with a reformist policy platform that looks nothing like the one she continues to peddle.

- There's a difference between criticizing and trying to work NATO into reform, which is what every President since Clinton has done, and behaving like an absolute ass, which is what Trump has done. It was Trump who erroneously declared NATO as obsolete, only to turn around and declare after elected that NATO is no longer obsolete. It was Trump who entered a NATO summit, as Congress moved to damage control by almost unanimously voting to support NATO, and exited the summit declaring to the world that NATO members had agreed to a 4%, when they did not. So, what is Trump doing?

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You and your NATO should stop being snowflakes. NATO should be renamed to North Atlantic Snowflake Organization.
They're not meeting their commitments, and Trump called them out on that, just as others have done. Remember how Gates-III called out NATO allies who balked at deployments to Afghanistan? Was Gates-III then also a stooge for saying so?
Criticizing NATO is a legitimate policy position - it is Trump's democratic right to criticize them - and it doesn't make him Putin's lackey for doing so.

The whole goddamn Left spent a good portion of the Cold War calling for less hostility towards Moscow - these "Make Love Not War" Lefties are now suddenly trying to flip-flop just for the sake of political convenience. A "Russia collusion" narrative has been constructed to get the POTUS out of the Whitehouse by hook or by crook, and the Lefties are going to stick with it because they feel it's their only chance to regain power.

MSgt said:

- The massive permanent tax-cut to the wealthy last Fall is ripping you off. Trump's recent considerations to bypass Congress and introduce another tax cut to the wealthy is ripping you off.

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I believe in the right to private ownership of property and wealth - as opposed to the ideology that Moscow preached for many decades, that those who own wealth are inherently evil.
I'm not some crazy brazen hypocrite who keeps obliquely citing our past hostility with a former adversary over fundamental differences in values, even while absurdly adopting the same values preached by that same enemy which made us hostile to each other.

This is as nutty as walking into a library and calling for "quiet" by shouting at the top of your lungs non-stop. It's absurd and contradictory.

- And it is obvious that your Shrug toward Russia stems on supporting Trump at any cost. Russia's cyberattacks, pipeline manipulations, and invasions in Europe's is a problem; and it is one that we have really done nothing about. But if you wish to concentrate on China, because Trump has decided to not like China now, look into Trump's mess with TPP, which left China a continued open playing field. Trump is not good for the country. He is good for the rich and powerful, at the cost of anything else.

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No, it's obvious to me that the Left never gave a crap about Russia until they found Russia to be a useful scapegoat to oust a president that they want to get rid of at all costs - no matter what fake accusations they had to come up with, no matter who they had to throw under the bus.

Putin is now the Trotsky of the American Left.

Godric1970 said:

About time to America has weaponized Swift ... without setting up a similar system the US can use Swift to hurt the EU economy and control our foreign policy at the same time ./... Europe needs to break free from American control and if America wants to be isolated ... then it's in the EU's best interest to set up our own financial system

Code:

https://www.ft.com/content/23ca2986-a569-11e8-8ecf-a7ae1beff35b

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If the dollar is replaced as the world currency reserve, America will come tumbling down

sanman said:

It feels like a circular argument - Russia is our enemy because it has difficult relations with our allies, and those countries are our allies because they have difficult relations with our enemy Russia.

I tell you what - if you wanna go fight Russia, then pick up a rifle and swim over there - I'll hold your coat. Don't drag the rest of us into your silly war "just because".

The Cold War is supposed to be over.

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It "feels" like that because you have no idea what you are talking about. Yes..it is "supposed" to be over:

- Yet, Russia, has invaded not one, but two neighbors and annexed territory while crying about NATO's threat.
- Yet, Russia, consistently plays pipeline diplomacy to maintain a sphere of influence, especially in regards to eastern Europe.
- Yet, Russia, consistently uses political and economic coercion through cyberattacks.

Clearly, while you run around personally defending Donald Trump from those meanie liberals and declare that the Cold War is "supposed to be over," Russia is playing the Cold War game as if the Iron Curtain still stands. It has gone well beyond its near-abroad into at least Syria. And since you are clearly unaware, Russia has also become the nuclear Wal-Mart of the Middle East.

And nobody said anything about war with Russia. Clearly, you have no idea what even the Cold War was and clearly you have no idea what is going on if you seek to reduce the tensions into a "just because" category. But the next time you want to play cute about me dragging the rest of you into my silly war, it might be helpful for you to remember that it was your kind who dragged me into actual war in 2003.

sanman said:

So when you recognize that renewables can't replace oil, then recognize that relations with oil suppliers are very important, because oil continues to be important.

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?! You went from scoffing at "stupid" renewable energy to declaring that oil is important too as if somebody said differently? The word I used was "diversification." I would explain further, but there is no point with you.

sanman said:

Trump ...Trump ...Trump ...Clinton ...Hillary ...Hillary ...[/Trump]

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Clearly, you have nothing to offer to this discussion because your opinions are heavily influenced by your personal devotion to Trump.

sanman said:

The whole goddamn Left spent a good portion of the Cold War calling for less hostility towards Moscow - these "Make Love Not War" Lefties are now suddenly trying to flip-flop just for the sake of political convenience. A "Russia collusion" narrative has been constructed to get the POTUS out of the Whitehouse by hook or by crook, and the Lefties are going to stick with it because they feel it's their only chance to regain power.

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- It was Truman who dealt with Russia and China's North Korean proxy.
- It was Kennedy who opened the door to Vietnam and doubled down on Advisers and Special Forces.
- It was Johnson who blew the lid off of Vietnam with the Draft and began sending hundreds of thousands to fight communism.
- It was Nixon who signed SALT I with Brezhnev and initiated the work for SALT II.

Clearly, the "whole goddamn left" did not spend a good portion of the Cold War calling for less hostility with Russia. Your partisan hackery is why you reduce your opinions to something insignificant.

sanman said:

You and your NATO should stop being snowflakes. NATO should be renamed to North Atlantic Snowflake Organization.
They're not meeting their commitments, and Trump called them out on that, just as others have done. Remember how Gates-III called out NATO allies who balked at deployments to Afghanistan? Was Gates-III then also a stooge for saying so?
Criticizing NATO is a legitimate policy position - it is Trump's democratic right to criticize them - and it doesn't make him Putin's lackey for doing so.

Me and my NATO? First of all, Trump is nowhere near the first U.S. President to criticize NATO's spending, but he is the first to denigrate NATO irrationally and dishonestly, thereby discrediting the argument. Second, it is clear that your opinion on the matter revolves around some sort of personal wounding about Trump being criticized as a Putin lackey.

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sanman said:

I believe in the right to private ownership of property and wealth - as opposed to the ideology that Moscow preached for many decades, that those who own wealth are inherently evil.

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Ah, the one-thing-or-the-other argument so that we don't have to apply ourselves to realty. I tire of you, but....

- You believe in the idea of private ownership and wealth, but care not to think about how that wealth and property is being robbed by the wealthy. Again, a permanent tax-cut for the wealthy, with another more recent tax-cut expressly for the wealthy in the works, is not about your wealth or your property. A Great Recession that shows over a trillion dollars of uninvested dollars by corporations while bailed out banks seize homes and small businesses (private property) is not about your wealth. Trickle Down is a bust.

- Nobody in America declares that wealth is "inherently evil" in the context that you mean it; and nobody has declared that capitalism must end in the communist context of Moscow.

So, your designed black-and-white world leaves you really not having a point.

sanman said:

No, it's obvious to me that the Left never gave a crap about Russia

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Um...no. Clearly, you don't have a clue about foreign policy, but you got your opinions, huh!

You see, there once was a time when diplomacy was less a contradictory Twitter belch and more of a diplomatic issue captured in official documents of Presidents who did not verbally contradict them at any given moment. Here is an example. From the 2015 National Security Strategy of the Obama Administration...

From the Middle East to Ukraine to Southeast Asia to the Americas, citizens are more empowered in seeking greater freedoms and accountable institutions. But these demands have often produced an equal and opposite reaction from backers of discredited authoritarian orders, resulting in crackdowns and conflict. Many of the threats to our security in recent years arose from efforts by authoritarian states to oppose democratic forces—from the crisis caused by Russian aggression in Ukraine to the rise of ISIL within the Syrian civil war.

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The National Security Strategies of each presidents are held here in this archive. I encourage you to at least understand the issues, before allowing Trump to form your opinions. Russia has long been a policy concern because Russia consistently proves, in an ever escalating manner, that it is a concern. It's you and your kind, through Trump's poor leadership, who have simply decided that Russia's alright, despite Russia consistently proving otherwise. It's you who chose not to care then, because Obama; and it is you who choose not to care now, because of Trump. Think for yourself.

MSgt said:

That is not the proper perspective at all. That is actually dangerous.

America is not the biggest threat to the EU. Russia is. America just has its head up its ass right now and has refused to see the issue at hand. It's not all Trump's fault, but he has exacerbated our blindness. In the meantime, it doesn't seem right that Europeans have a constant knack for falling in line behind strongmen (Putin, as the latest) and then looking at the U.S. for rescue. The U.S. burden is that a Europe left to itself is a Europe that sucks the world into chaos. The U.S. has forgotten that.

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Maybe the European countries are starving for a good leader like Putin?

In this country we are starving for a good leader, and all we get offered is Hillary and Donald. What a choice, eh?

Thoreau72 said:

Maybe the European countries are starving for a good leader like Putin?

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Europeans are not too unlike Americans but their multi-political party systems do present potentials for good leadership. From my understanding, they are, rightfully so, more concerned about Russia's reach than us. As they diversify their energy sources with renewable energy, they still need MENA oil to flow. This means that we are stuck having to continue to protect that flow by supporting undesirable Sunni regimes, which fund radical Sunni madrases and terrorist organizations that push all blame towards the American flag. We need to appreciate our current energy boom (fracking, LTO, coal, oil, etc.) and translate that new export into the TTIP discussion, in which Trump abruptly halted in early 2017 because..."Obama"...but recently resumed in a way that looks exactly like what was already happening. U.S. oil exports can greatly reduce Middle Eastern oil imports to Europe, thus addressing Russia's pressure and Saudi Arabia's hold on us.

And, by the way, the rising demand of India and China's populations continue to push for Saudi Arabia to increase production per day. And guess who, because of Europe's need, protects that for China? In the meantime, Trump went about this global trade issue horribly wrong, which has hurt his already destined-to-fail negotiations with North Korea because he went about that horribly wrong. In the end, because of Europe's needs, the U.S. military continues to stand guard to make sure China can get its oil from Saudi Arabia.

What a world. I need to be in charge. Give me four years.

Thoreau72 said:

In this country we are starving for a good leader, and all we get offered is Hillary and Donald. What a choice, eh?

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I believe it will get worse. In 2016:

- Trump's 61% unfavorable score is the worst in presidential polling history
- Clinton's 52% unfavorable score is second-worst in presidential polling history

Crap...or...crappier? Trump, a populist outsider with zero experience, is the product of the GOP refusing to deal in super-delegates in the early 1980s. The result of that now is that a champion 2008 "birther" and political extremist became president in 2016 with the GOP, though they actually begged, incapable of preventing it.

And, now, the DNC just killed the super-delegate this week, which, admittedly, stupidly pushed out Bernie Sanders in favor of Hillary Clinton in 2016. Yay ...democracy? Give it to the people?

Obviously, when we consider that Donald Trump received a whopping 14 million votes in the Primaries, the people are vulgar, uneducated, and stupid. They are so busy playing false political and partisan games that they don't even care what is good for them or the country. Without at least some sort of mechanism to screen the fool outsider morons (High School popularity contest for President) from the legitimate contenders for the Office, our future is...

- Drake, cuz his rhymes be bangin'...

or

- Joel Osteen, because his sermons lately have been righteous and pure. Let us pray.

Of course, that's an extreme bit of Idiocracy, but the Democrats saw Jesse Jackson make a run for it and the Republicans saw Pat Robertson do the same in the 1980s when the super-delegate was a mere conversation to keep the inexperienced populist out of the White House. This is 2018.

Godric1970 said:

About time to America has weaponized Swift ... without setting up a similar system the US can use Swift to hurt the EU economy and control our foreign policy at the same time ./... Europe needs to break free from American control and if America wants to be isolated ... then it's in the EU's best interest to set up our own financial system

Code:

https://www.ft.com/content/23ca2986-a569-11e8-8ecf-a7ae1beff35b

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Russia, China and Iran are already doing this. Thank God. The world is tired of the BULLY. Eyes are opening.

I dearly love America, but I despise the US mafioso Empire which has little to do with the ideals of America.

JMaximus said:

Why is the EU so desperate to do business with Iran?

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1. A young educated population
2. 75 million people
3. Top 5 in the world in BOTH oil and natural gas.

Pretty simple really

As the world pulls away from the corrupt mafia US EMPIRE.....the US elites will need a big war and likely soon. Its a matter of how the empire baits someone into starting the war...

...another fake gas attack in Syria so as to justify bombing Assad and by default Putin
...provoke China in the South China Sea
...Provoke Putin in Crimea or east Ukraine
...my guess...it will start with Iran and China/Russia decide not to stand for it