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At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say [W:314]

Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

Vox said:
Now you're just beginning to comprehend the problem that Trump has seen all along.

Welcome to the cognoscenti.
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That's a cheap ploy, snipping the biggest part of my post where I trash your viewpoint. Got anything to say about the point I made?
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

ClaraD said:
I'm fed up with hearing it...its time for solutions
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I thought I told you to stop thinking to spare the rest of us your drivel?
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

Waddy said:
You don't actually know that yet. His parents said he had mental problems, but that doesn't preclude radicalization. It might make him a more likely candidate. So he could have been both crazy and radical. I would be very interested if his parents knew he had a weapon. In so many of these cases the immediate family know they're both mentally ill and armed but don't get the guns removed and out of reach.
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He wasn't out of the blue. The Toronto cops had dealt with him before and his family said he'd suffered psychosis and depression all his life and that drugs and therapy hadn't helped him. Whether or not his parents knew he had a weapon, I haven't read anything.
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

Grand Mal said:
He wasn't out of the blue. The Toronto cops had dealt with him before and his family said he'd suffered psychosis and depression all his life and that drugs and therapy hadn't helped him. Whether or not his parents knew he had a weapon, I haven't read anything.
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The cops might not have had a clue that he was radicalized. Maybe his parents didn't even know. I'm not suggesting he was, just that they need to look at his computer, cell phone history, etc,. We just don't know much one way or the other. So jumping to any conclusion is premature.
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

OlNate said:
Quoting the Sun is the same as quoting Breitbart.
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So which specific facts are you taking issue with, exactly? The name of the shooter? The fact that he'd lived in Pakistan & Afghanistan?

Or are you just attacking the messenger because you've got nothing else?
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

Surrealistik said:
Except we don't know if this uptick is due to, as stated, other potentially more applicable elements like upheavals in gang territory/politics, changes in drug/prostitution/gun flows/other shadow economy elements and so on; it's not as though these things remain a constant without variation. Again, this is why criminology and not reflex should be our guide when formulating policy.
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Yes, we can fantasize about any number of possible reasons why there's an uptick in gun violence and murder while ignoring the only factual change that coincides with the uptick. And yes, we can do more studies and talk and talk and talk about societal issues while doing nothing about it as more people, many innocents, lose their lives needlessly. Or, we can take a practical approach and reinstitute those policies that were working previously and see if they reverse the trend.

There's nothing new here - New York City went through a similar situation decades ago and their city evolved into a lawless cesspool of criminal violence until a Mayor was elected to take back the city from the criminals and who ignored the bleeding hearts and criminal coddlers and went on to protect and support the law abiding citizens of the city and cleaned the vermin off the streets. Now, Toronto can wring its hands and spend its time instituting more gun controls and more community activities and incentives for those living in poor neighbourhoods with the false hope that a violent criminal will change his ways if only he had a basketball court to play on. Or, more practically, Toronto can get tough on crime, tougher on criminals, and rid the city of the menace before it takes firmer root.
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

Grand Mal said:
Got anything to say about the point I made?
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Your only point was in showing that you were beginning to understand the danger of Muslim immigration........just like Trump has already understood.

Welcome to the Cognoscenti.
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

Vox said:
No.

All true.

You're just in denial.......and butt-hurt because Canada's holier than thou acceptance of dangerous Muslims and criticism of the U.S. for rejecting them has resulted in dead Canadians.

Your toxic Muslim chickens have come home to roost.
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We’ve had terrorist attacks and many more mass shootings (unless Canada has been real good at hiding theirs) in the US. What toxic chickens are we raising?
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

X Factor said:
We’ve had terrorist attacks and many more mass shootings (unless Canada has been real good at hiding theirs) in the US.
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False comparison. Apples and oranges.

Population Canada......36 million.
Population U.S............320 million.

The estimated number of firearms (legal and illegal) in the hands of civilian owners in Canada is about 10 million, about 31 guns per 100 people. The United States has far more guns: about 310 million, almost one gun a person.

Canada is not the leader in combating Muslim evil in the world......but the U.S. certainly is.......thus the U.S. is the focus of Muslim hatred and attacks......but we have an excellent record of stopping them because.......unlike Canada......we work hard to see that the bastards never get into our country.......we don't keep them all out yet--but we're getting better.
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

CanadaJohn said:
Yes, we can fantasize about any number of possible reasons why there's an uptick in gun violence and murder while ignoring the only factual change that coincides with the uptick. And yes, we can do more studies and talk and talk and talk about societal issues while doing nothing about it as more people, many innocents, lose their lives needlessly. Or, we can take a practical approach and reinstitute those policies that were working previously and see if they reverse the trend.

There's nothing new here - New York City went through a similar situation decades ago and their city evolved into a lawless cesspool of criminal violence until a Mayor was elected to take back the city from the criminals and who ignored the bleeding hearts and criminal coddlers and went on to protect and support the law abiding citizens of the city and cleaned the vermin off the streets. Now, Toronto can wring its hands and spend its time instituting more gun controls and more community activities and incentives for those living in poor neighbourhoods with the false hope that a violent criminal will change his ways if only he had a basketball court to play on. Or, more practically, Toronto can get tough on crime, tougher on criminals, and rid the city of the menace before it takes firmer root.
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It's not that this change in policy is the 'only factual change' so much as it's the only one you know. You might actually be right, but until we have more information and without actually studying the causation, we know nothing about it; period.

As to getting tougher on criminals and taking action sure, I'm all for that; given the problem here specifically is gun crime:
A: The flow of crime guns needs to be stopped/impeded; better border controls/enforcement is in order.
B: The penalties for smuggling, improper sale of (notably about 50% of the guns used in recent shooting crimes were domestically sourced via illegal sales instead of the typical 70-90+% being from the US) and use of guns in the commission of a crime should be increased as deterrence.
C: Gun control in general should be improved so weapons are more traceable and weaponry is harder to acquire; tighten the white market supply, and the black market supply follows.
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

For those who equate having a Muslim name with terrorism, if his name was Sean McGinty, would you be blaming the IRA and/or the Vatican?
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

Surrealistik said:
It's not that this change in policy is the 'only factual change' so much as it's the only one you know. You might actually be right, but until we have more information and without actually studying the causation, we know nothing about it; period.

As to getting tougher on criminals and taking action sure, I'm all for that; given the problem here specifically is gun crime:
A: The flow of crime guns needs to be stopped/impeded; better border controls/enforcement is in order.
B: The penalties for smuggling, improper sale of (notably about 50% of the guns used in recent shooting crimes were domestically sourced via illegal sales instead of the typical 70-90+% being from the US) and use of guns in the commission of a crime should be increased as deterrence.
C: Gun control in general should be improved so weapons are more traceable and weaponry is harder to acquire; tighten the white market supply, and the black market supply follows.
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I can agree somewhat with your comments, but you still fail to credit the policy changes having any negative impact and the reversal of those policy changes having a positive impact. As for penalties, I wholeheartedly agree - the justice system has been too weak, particularly the courts, in punishing illegal activity involving guns. In fact, the judiciary has, in every instance, taken it upon themselves to ignore any mandatory minimum sentences the federal parliament enacted, claiming they were unconstitutional. The will of the public is thwarted by an unelected judiciary.

As for your comments related to gun control, it is true that legally purchased guns have been sold illegally and some have been prosecuted for that offense, but the penalties again are inadequate. More and stricter traceability doesn't eliminate at all, however, the use of illegally purchased guns unless you can convince American manufacturers to do likewise, which is highly doubtful. Similar to climate change initiatives, the outcomes are negligible at best unless all buy in and to date the largest offenders aren't interested.
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

CanadaJohn said:
I can agree somewhat with your comments, but you still fail to credit the policy changes having any negative impact and the reversal of those policy changes having a positive impact. As for penalties, I wholeheartedly agree - the justice system has been too weak, particularly the courts, in punishing illegal activity involving guns. In fact, the judiciary has, in every instance, taken it upon themselves to ignore any mandatory minimum sentences the federal parliament enacted, claiming they were unconstitutional. The will of the public is thwarted by an unelected judiciary.

As for your comments related to gun control, it is true that legally purchased guns have been sold illegally and some have been prosecuted for that offense, but the penalties again are inadequate. More and stricter traceability doesn't eliminate at all, however, the use of illegally purchased guns unless you can convince American manufacturers to do likewise, which is highly doubtful. Similar to climate change initiatives, the outcomes are negligible at best unless all buy in and to date the largest offenders aren't interested.
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Given that a big chunk of recent crime guns used were Canadian sourced (about 50%), improved traceability would have an impact, regardless of what the US chooses to do (and in any event, we should have better border controls to help tackle contraband from there, and much harsher gun smuggling penalties).

Further, yes, the penalties for straw sales/buys are inadequate and should be increased significantly, especially if the straw sold gun was used in the commission of a crime (and a straw seller should absolutely be vulnerable to civil liability if the sold gun was used in a crime); that's something I'm proposing.

It's not that I'm failing to credit these police policy changes so much as that I'm not jumping to conclusions that they're materially responsible; as I've said, you might be right, or there might be more relevant/salient reasons for this influx in gun crime. I don't know, and you don't know. That said, I'm personally happy to accord to the police whatever powers/assistance they request in the interim that don't directly contravene our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and have criminologists review the efficacy of those powers such that we know which to keep and which to dispose of.
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

Surrealistik said:
Given that a big chunk of recent crime guns used were Canadian sourced (about 50%), improved traceability would have an impact, regardless of what the US chooses to do (and in any event, we should have better border controls to help tackle contraband from there, and much harsher gun smuggling penalties).

Further, yes, the penalties for straw sales/buys are inadequate and should be increased significantly, especially if the straw sold gun was used in the commission of a crime (and a straw seller should absolutely be vulnerable to civil liability if the sold gun was used in a crime); that's something I'm proposing.

It's not that I'm failing to credit these police policy changes so much as that I'm not jumping to conclusions that they're materially responsible; as I've said, you might be right, or there might be more relevant/salient reasons for this influx in gun crime. I don't know, and you don't know. That said, I'm personally happy to accord to the police whatever powers/assistance they request in the interim that don't directly contravene our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and have criminologists review the efficacy of those powers such that we know which to keep and which to dispose of.
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Some, if not many Liberals are calling for a handgun ban.
 
queenmandy85 said:
For those who equate having a Muslim name with terrorism, if his name was Sean McGinty, would you be blaming the IRA and/or the Vatican?
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Naw, they would just blame mental illness and send out prayers
 
Re: At least 9 people shot in Toronto and shooter is dead, police say

JANFU said:
Some, if not many Liberals are calling for a handgun ban.
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I don't mind this.

I don't really think there's much of a place for handguns in Canada anyways; long arms in the country? Sure.

My preference is that handguns be exceedingly difficult to get (private collector, profession requires a handgun, etc) and be well traced, with severe penalties and potential civil liability for negligent keeping and straw sales/purchasing.
 
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