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White House Weighs Allowing Russia to Question Ex-U.S. Envoy

Athanasius68 said:
Indicting those Russians to “frame” a crime against Americans is no less absurd.
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Obviously you have no experience as a federal prosecutor in a complex international conspiracy case. The indictments define the core crime. We will soon learn if there are American participants in that crime.

Athanasius68 said:
Did you really not think that Putin would respond in kind?
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That would be his prerogative. Are you suggesting that we should live in fear of what Putin might do? Putin knows what happened and knows his people will never be charged (though they will now have limited international travel). This is a buzzing mosquito in terms of international incidents; he will do nothing but be annoyed. In fact, its our move in terms of things that we should be doing to them.
 
upsideguy said:
Obviously you have no experience as a federal prosecutor in a complex international conspiracy case. The indictments define the core crime. We will soon learn if there are American participants in that crime.



That would be his prerogative. Are you suggesting that we should live in fear of what Putin might do? Putin knows what happened and knows his people will never be charged (though they will now have limited international travel). This is a buzzing mosquito in terms of international incidents; he will do nothing but be annoyed. In fact, its our move in terms of things that we should be doing to them.
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It’s not a crime; it was Russian foreign policy. Those indicted guys are employees and were working to further that goal.

We should be worried that thug regimes will now have precedent to go after Americans in their courtrooms as a means of protesting USA foreign policy.
That isn’t the sound of a mosquito buzzing in your ear, it the sound of a jackhammer.
 
Athanasius68 said:
It’s not a crime; it was Russian foreign policy. Those indicted guys are employees and were working to further that goal.

We should be worried that thug regimes will now have precedent to go after Americans in their courtrooms as a means of protesting USA foreign policy.
That isn’t the sound of a mosquito buzzing in your ear, it the sound of a jackhammer.
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Of course it is a crime. That is why there are indictments.

https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download

It is conspiracy, computer crime, theft of proprietary information and profiting on propriety information, with much of it committed on US soil. The fact that the crime was committed by Russians is completely irrelevant. Crimes are crimes. While being Russian may give them cover in Russia, it does not change the fact that they committed crimes against the People of the United States.

Do you think this is something new? We charge foreign nationals with crime committed on US soil all of the time, especially bank fraud and computer crimes. But, you are still missing the point. The indictment (see link) establishes (details the crime). It creates the structure to which Americans are likely to be shown to have participated. Once they are charged, you will have the conspiracy (the "colluison") that Trump insists did not happen. I think we will very soon learn that it did.

BTW, why are you arguing on behalf of the Russians following an attack on the People of the United States. Some people might argue that you are giving aid and comfort to our enemies. Your fellow Americans want to know?

Microphone on Stage.jpg
 
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OscarLevant said:
I thought something like this would have been a no-brainer.
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It was a tit for tat, you show me yours I'll show you mine" offer. We got to interview all those 20 or so Mueller had indited (who will never see the inside of a USA courtroom.

In return, Russia got to interviews folks who Putin claims interfered with Putin's election. Putin also claims criminal activity in Russia spirited some $400 million dollars out of Russia and directly into Hillary Clinton's campaign fund. (Illegal in both countries)

The simple fact is the has USA interfered with Russian elections ever since the end of the Cold War. (and before)

Furthermore the USA has globally interfered in friendly and hostile countries elections since the founding of the CIA in 1947.

Putin and Trump knew the idea was a no go from the start. Trump enjoyed tweeking the Democrats, but he miscalculated how unglued they would become to protect Obama/Clinton.





 
upsideguy said:
Of course it is a crime. That is why there are indictments.

https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download

It is conspiracy, computer crime, theft of proprietary information and profiting on propriety information, with much of it committed on US soil. The fact that the crime was committed by Russians is completely irrelevant. Crimes are crimes. While being Russian may give them cover in Russia, it does not change the fact that they committed crimes against the People of the United States.

Do you think this is something new? We charge foreign nationals with crime committed on US soil all of the time, especially bank fraud and computer crimes. But, you are still missing the point. The indictment (see link) establishes (details the crime). It creates the structure to which Americans are likely to be shown to have participated. Once they are charged, you will have the conspiracy (the "colluison") that Trump insists did not happen. I think we will very soon learn that it did.

BTW, why are you arguing on behalf of the Russians following an attack on the People of the United States. Some people might argue that you are giving aid and comfort to our enemies. Your fellow Americans want to know?

View attachment 67236672
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Those people who wonder that can take their arguments and place it up their fascist backsides.


If one chooses to respond to an attack upon the USA by running to an American court, then a set of rules exist which need to be followed. Namely, the presumption of innocence.

So naturally, officially, Russia is not guilty of attacking anyone. At best at this point all these calls are simply for a show trial. Which corrupts the American legal system. It also does nothing to address the issue of Russian interference. And places our
government employees in harms way.
 
Parrish said:
That it took POTUS 3 freaking days to respond should give the US pause. And that he was talked out of his willingness to do so.
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Trump knows as well as anyone knows Putin can kill anyone he wants to kill in any city in any country of the world. This is the real danger to the people Polonium Putin named and wants to suffer Putin Justice. And Trump will accommodate Putin in any way Trump can. Putin's first attempt was to get possession of the Americans he has targeted. Now that that has failed who knows what Putin's second and perhaps final course of action will be against the several Americans in their own communities and country. We know already Trump has zero interest in protecting American interests abroad or Americans in our homeland. Trump is in the process of turning over to Putin the sovereignty and the national security and defense of the United States. Trump has done nothing to protect the November election against Putin and his rightwing intelligence agencies both civilian and military. The Putin-Trump Fanboyz in the USA love it and they want more of it.
 
beerftw said:
The questioning was not just a request but a request at a bargain, meaning putin was willing to hand over russian gru accused of the hacking to america for questioning in return for being able to question the guy they want.
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beerftw said:
Not even if it means getting all those people ,mueller indicted but are in russia?? Almost seems to me like they wanted those indicted russians to stay in russia, like maybe they were random names chosen knowing they would not come here to testify.
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The defense of Putin-Trump has confused and contradicted itself and has left itself confounded for all to see.

And for someone who tries determinedly to promote the Russian military at other threads you sure are willing to give up their GRU agents named in the Mueller indictment. We know Putin wants former ambassador McFaul so badly he can taste it and Browder because Browder helped memorialize Magnitsky whom Putin had murdered in prison. Browder was arrested momentarily in Spain Memorial Day on an Interpol warrant generated by Putin who won't simply or directly provide the 12 indicted by Mueller.

We know Polonium Putin can kill anyone in any city of the world at any time for any reason which is the real mortal risk to the Americans Michael McFaul and Bill Browder among other Americans Putin has targeted for Trump to clear the way to right here in our own homeland. Americans who support Putin-Trump in this definitely positively want the USA to be more like Putin's Russia than the other way around. Putin does in fact expect Trump to deliver the American citizens to him who are public officials or public figures that Putin wants to deal with in private while Trump looks the other way.
 
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Tangmo said:
The defense of Putin-Trump has confused and contradicted itself and has left itself confounded for all the see.

And for someone who tries determinedly to promote the Russian military at other threads you sure are willing to give up their GRU agents named in the Mueller indictment. We know Putin wants former ambassador McFaul so badly he can taste it and Browder because Browder helped enshrine Magnitsky whom Putin had murdered in prison. Browder was arrested in Spain Memorial Day on an Interpol warrant generated by Putin who won't simply or directly provide the 12 indicted by Mueller.

We know Polonium Putin can kill anyone in any city of the world at any time for any reason which is the real mortal risk to the Americans Michael McFaul and Bill Browder among other Americans Putin has targeted for Trump to clear the way to right here in our own homeland. Americans who support Putin-Trump in this definitely positively want the USA to be more like Putin's Russia than the other way around. Putin does in fact expect Trump to deliver the American citizens to him who are public officials or public figures that Putin wants to deal with in private while Trump looks the other way.
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Well if you have not pieced nthe puzzle together, all the names indicted were just randomly chosen, even if they had solid proof russia did it, finding the names of those responsible is pretty near impossible, it is nothing more than a stunt to excuse the investigation and investigate people in the us they can take to court, the worst thing for that investigation would be if those russians named ended up in court as it would destroy the narrative, as they were chosen to justify a domestic investigation knowing they would never show up in court.
 
beerftw said:
Well if you have not pieced nthe puzzle together, all the names indicted were just randomly chosen, even if they had solid proof russia did it, finding the names of those responsible is pretty near impossible, it is nothing more than a stunt to excuse the investigation and investigate people in the us they can take to court, the worst thing for that investigation would be if those russians named ended up in court as it would destroy the narrative, as they were chosen to justify a domestic investigation knowing they would never show up in court.
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You'll have to document that thx.

In the meantime I reiterate the American Putin-Trump Fanboyz want the USA to take Putin's Russia as the model for Americans to live by. Which brings us full circle to the fact the Putin-Trump Fanboyz have become what we once fought against.
 
Tangmo said:
You'll have to document that thx.

In the meantime I reiterate the American Putin-Trump Fanboyz want the USA to take Putin's Russia as the model for Americans to live by. Which brings us full circle to the fact the Putin-Trump Fanboyz have become what we once fought against.
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When did america want to take putins model, what putin does works for russia, and what works for russia does not work for america. Seems you just want to resort to ad hominems and hyperbole rather than make any coherant statement.
 
beerftw said:
When did america want to take putins model, what putin does works for russia, and what works for russia does not work for america. Seems you just want to resort to ad hominems and hyperbole rather than make any coherant statement.
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Putin-Trump Fanboyz need to address the Americans Putin has identified as the ones he wants -- at this time and these in particular -- and that Putin can kill any person he wants to kill in any city in any country at any time for any reason. And that Putin knows with certainty he can do this in the United States because Donald Trump is president. Putin's Boy Trump. And the Putin-Trump Fanboyz. We know we have a president who is dismantling USA national security, sovereignty, defense and leaving Americans vulnerable for their personal safety in the United States against a foreign adversarial power led by a murderer dictator-tyrant.
 
Tangmo said:
Putin-Trump Fanboyz need to address the Americans Putin has identified as the ones he wants -- at this time and these in particular -- and that Putin can kill any person he wants to kill in any city in any country at any time for any reason. And that Putin knows with certainty he can do this in the United States because Donald Trump is president. Putin's Boy Trump. And the Putin-Trump Fanboyz. We know we have a president who is dismantling USA national security, sovereignty, defense and leaving Americans vulnerable for their personal safety in the United States against a foreign adversarial power led by a murderer dictator-tyrant.
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Wel putin could kill anyone he wants reguadless of who is president, as could our cia, it is nothing more than a matter of cost/reward. If killing someone here can cause war, russia has no benefit, vice versa if the cia kils high level people in russia, all out war no benefit. There are many lesser killings both sides know goes on and ignore, as calling out the other would be the pot calling the kettle black, both sides do it on a regular basis.


Oh and how is trump dismantling us security, sovereignity or defense, seems to me he had upped military spending, and has pushed for nato to up their spending which is the direct rival to russia. Seems you have nothing more than ad hominem name calling and hyperbole since you still have no coherant message.
 
Athanasius68 said:
Those people who wonder that can take their arguments and place it up their fascist backsides.


If one chooses to respond to an attack upon the USA by running to an American court, then a set of rules exist which need to be followed. Namely, the presumption of innocence.

So naturally, officially, Russia is not guilty of attacking anyone. At best at this point all these calls are simply for a show trial. Which corrupts the American legal system. It also does nothing to address the issue of Russian interference. And places our
government employees in harms way.
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That is really twisted logic..... charging someone with a crime does not mean a step backwards with the "presumption of innocence", that makes less than no sense. I don't think you quite understand what the presumption of innocence actually means and what a federal indictment is....

"....A federal indictment is a formal legal document that charges an individual with a federal crime. Usually, an indictment is issued after a grand jury convenes and determines that there is probable cause to believe that the subject of the indictment committed the crime in question...."

https://www.neworleans-criminal-defense.com/attorney-blog/2013/10/28/receiving-federal-indictment/

The indictment means a crime was committed and the persons charged are probably guilty. Given the prosecution of cases by the Feds results in convictions 90% of the time, that probably is pretty high. The presumption of innocence only deals with the burden of proof in trial.... the prosecutor must prove beyond reasonable doubt that the charged party is guilty, and if he fails in that endeavor, the charged party is entitled to being considered innocent. It doesn't mean they are. The grand jury, having reviewed much of the evidence, has already determined that there is a high probably that the charged party is likely guilty.

A real President would also be using diplomatic responses to this attack. We would not be talking about having them join the G-7, we would be calling them out as thugs and banishing them from international legitimacy. That is what a real president would do.

For the third time, Muellers indictments of 12 Russians are not about actually bringing Russians to trial. Instead, the indictment establishes the crime, including its particular details. That structure will be used to indict Americans, establishing the conspiracy (collusion). The legal system is about prosecuting any Americans that we covertly or overtly complicit with the Russian efforts. Were not done yet, folks.
 
beerftw said:
Wel putin could kill anyone he wants reguadless of who is president, as could our cia, it is nothing more than a matter of cost/reward. If killing someone here can cause war, russia has no benefit, vice versa if the cia kils high level people in russia, all out war no benefit. There are many lesser killings both sides know goes on and ignore, as calling out the other would be the pot calling the kettle black, both sides do it on a regular basis.


Oh and how is trump dismantling us security, sovereignity or defense, seems to me he had upped military spending, and has pushed for nato to up their spending which is the direct rival to russia. Seems you have nothing more than ad hominem name calling and hyperbole since you still have no coherant message.
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Putin-Trump Fanboyz need to campaign to equate the USA to Russia morally, culturally, civilizationally, politically and in every way possible, as the post testifies to the open court of public opinion. Putin is arrogant enough to name the people in the USA who need to feel their lives are now in a real danger as our president becomes more subservient to the dictator-tyrant poison pen chemist in the Kremlin. Trump is not protecting America or Americans in the homeland against our foreign adversaries.


Before Trump can turn the USA over to the effective control of Putin, Trump has to go through SecDef Mattis and the joint chiefs and virtually all the commanders of the armed forces in the Pentagon and globally. Trump trying to turn Nato upside down to shake 'em down and inside out creates the chaos and confusion Putin-Trump want. Indeed, Pentagon sees that Trump gave away the store to Kim Jong Un and that this is Trump's modus operandi in his approach to Nato which is the longest and most vital USA national security and defense alliance. Nato came after WW II and WW I before it. Nato has over 70 years prevented WW III in numerous respects.

What we are looking at is Trump running the increasing risk of being forced out by civilian and military authority acting together quietly and low key and led by the civilian authorities from all three branches of the government. Included would be elements of the civil society as a whole such as religion, academics, business and corporate leaders among others. We recall how Republican party leaders told Nixon to get out and go away because he had insufficient support in the Congress to continue as Potus. Removing Trump by vote of the Senate remains unlikely however, as does removing Trump by vote of the Cabinet which would be subject to support in the Congress.

Removing Trump kills two birds with one stone so to speak, i.e., we dump the tandem of Putin-Trump. That leaves The Putin-Trump Fanboyz to be dealt with by a new reconstruction of the nation which would be the Second American Reconstruction. A second national reconstruction would be the opposite of the easy going first one that permitted the original sin racist secessionists to survive and thrive to come back at us full circle again. The present is like an 1860 election that gave the nation a president Jefferson Davis holding hands with the British monarch.

The Putin-Trump Fanboyz are indeed fully committed to the fact they have become the armband types we once fought against. Their determined campaign to try to equate the USA to Putin and Russia is further proof the Putin-Trump Fanboyz use Russia as their model for what they want the United States to become and to be. It is Polonium Putin and Donald Drumpf extending their hands across the Atlantic and Europe right into the USA joining up with their Fanboyz right here in the homeland. That includes you.
 
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Tangmo said:
Putin-Trump Fanboyz need to campaign to equate the USA to Russia morally, culturally, civilizationally, politically and in every way possible, as the post testifies to the open court of public opinion. Putin is arrogant enough to name the people in the USA who need to feel their lives are now in a real danger as our president becomes more subservient to the dictator-tyrant poison pen chemist in the Kremlin. Trump is not protecting America or Americans in the homeland against our foreign adversaries.


Before Trump can turn the USA over to the effective control of Putin, Trump has to go through SecDef Mattis and the joint chiefs and virtually all the commanders of the armed forces in the Pentagon and globally. Trump trying to turn Nato upside down to shake 'em down and inside out creates the chaos and confusion Putin-Trump want. Indeed, Pentagon sees that Trump gave away the store to Kim Jong Un and that this is Trump's modus operandi in his approach to Nato which is the longest and most vital USA national security and defense alliance. Nato came after WW II and WW I before it. Nato has over 70 years prevented WW III in numerous respects.

What we are looking at is Trump running the increasing risk of being forced out by civilian and military authority acting together quietly and low key and led by the civilian authorities from all three branches of the government. Included would be elements of the civil society as a whole such as religion, academics, business and corporate leaders among others. We recall how Republican party leaders told Nixon to get out and go away because he had insufficient support in the Congress to continue as Potus. Removing Trump by vote of the Senate remains unlikely however, as does removing Trump by vote of the Cabinet which would be subject to support in the Congress.

Removing Trump kills two birds with one stone so to speak, i.e., we dump the tandem of Putin-Trump. That leaves The Putin-Trump Fanboyz to be dealt with by a new reconstruction of the nation which would be the Second American Reconstruction. A second national reconstruction would be the opposite of the easy going first one that permitted the original sin racist secessionists to survive and thrive to come back at us full circle again. The present is like an 1860 election that gave the nation a president Jefferson Davis holding hands with the British monarch.

The Putin-Trump Fanboyz are indeed fully committed to the fact they have become the armband types we once fought against. Their determined campaign to try to equate the USA to Putin and Russia is further proof the Putin-Trump Fanboyz use Russia as their model for what they want the United States to become and to be. It is Polonium Putin and Donald Drumpf extending their hands across the Atlantic and Europe right into the USA joining up with their Fanboyz right here in the homeland. That includes you.
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Your post was too painful for me to finish reading, especially towards the end.
 
beerftw said:
Your post was too painful for me to finish reading, especially towards the end.
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Sorry to hear you were stricken by pain while you were engaged here and active with my post in particular. You could always take two aspirin then try again in the morning. I'd hope you could complete reading the post. The Putin-Trump Fanboyz need to know for their own individual sake where all of this goes. And how it ends up, i.e., a downer. Because when we get to a second reconstruction of the nation everyone will need to forget all the soft and mushy stuff Lincoln said about his reconstruction and that his successors carried out. No Uncle Sam Nice Guy this time around thx. Daddy will handle this one.
 
Tangmo said:
Putin-Trump Fanboyz need to campaign to equate the USA to Russia morally, culturally, civilizationally, politically and in every way possible, as the post testifies to the open court of public opinion. Putin is arrogant enough to name the people in the USA who need to feel their lives are now in a real danger as our president becomes more subservient to the dictator-tyrant poison pen chemist in the Kremlin. Trump is not protecting America or Americans in the homeland against our foreign adversaries.


Before Trump can turn the USA over to the effective control of Putin, Trump has to go through SecDef Mattis and the joint chiefs and virtually all the commanders of the armed forces in the Pentagon and globally. Trump trying to turn Nato upside down to shake 'em down and inside out creates the chaos and confusion Putin-Trump want. Indeed, Pentagon sees that Trump gave away the store to Kim Jong Un and that this is Trump's modus operandi in his approach to Nato which is the longest and most vital USA national security and defense alliance. Nato came after WW II and WW I before it. Nato has over 70 years prevented WW III in numerous respects.

What we are looking at is Trump running the increasing risk of being forced out by civilian and military authority acting together quietly and low key and led by the civilian authorities from all three branches of the government. Included would be elements of the civil society as a whole such as religion, academics, business and corporate leaders among others. We recall how Republican party leaders told Nixon to get out and go away because he had insufficient support in the Congress to continue as Potus. Removing Trump by vote of the Senate remains unlikely however, as does removing Trump by vote of the Cabinet which would be subject to support in the Congress.

Removing Trump kills two birds with one stone so to speak, i.e., we dump the tandem of Putin-Trump. That leaves The Putin-Trump Fanboyz to be dealt with by a new reconstruction of the nation which would be the Second American Reconstruction. A second national reconstruction would be the opposite of the easy going first one that permitted the original sin racist secessionists to survive and thrive to come back at us full circle again. The present is like an 1860 election that gave the nation a president Jefferson Davis holding hands with the British monarch.

The Putin-Trump Fanboyz are indeed fully committed to the fact they have become the armband types we once fought against. Their determined campaign to try to equate the USA to Putin and Russia is further proof the Putin-Trump Fanboyz use Russia as their model for what they want the United States to become and to be. It is Polonium Putin and Donald Drumpf extending their hands across the Atlantic and Europe right into the USA joining up with their Fanboyz right here in the homeland. That includes you.
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A thousand plus letters flying in close formation and in search of a cogent point.
 
Tangmo said:
Sorry to hear you were stricken by pain while you were engaged here and active with my post in particular. You could always take two aspirin then try again in the morning. I'd hope you could complete reading the post. The Putin-Trump Fanboyz need to know for their own individual sake where all of this goes. And how it ends up, i.e., a downer. Because when we get to a second reconstruction of the nation everyone will need to forget all the soft and mushy stuff Lincoln said about his reconstruction and that his successors carried out. No Uncle Sam Nice Guy this time around thx. Daddy will handle this one.
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Go back and read what you wrote before responding again.
 
MrMike said:
Keep playing that stupid game and calling for the killing of our President.

It isn’t helping you or that sickness of harassment and violence you and your political party keeps promoting.
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Except that I heard out loud weekly and for just about 8 years, they ought to drag that 'N' out of the white house and shoot his black ass.

You know, that black, Kenyan, muslim, communist...out to destroy the country.

Out to destroy the country when if he had an 'R' after name, would be practically a god ?
 
Sorry to agree but Pedestrian is spot on. Those who called out 44 are content with the WH going red, a la Russia, as long as an R is in the WH.
 
OscarLevant said:
Well there was Benedict Arnold but he wasn't president
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Benedict Arnold was crucial in the revolutionary war, from 1774 and was a war hero. Then 6 years later in 1780, he...become a traitor.
 
beerftw said:
Go back and read what you wrote before responding again.
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What we have here is a failure to discuss the issues. A failure to communicate to apply a phrase well known and appreciated by many. Which means I needn't do anything you are suggesting that is of the moment or otherwise. I would expand on my own reiterations across the threads that American Conservatives have become what we once fought against. Not all of 'em however, cause some American Conservatives have always been what we fought against. They never needed to become anything Putin-Trump cause they were with Putin before Putin was Putin-Trump already.
 
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