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Russian military planes violate South Korean air defense zone four times, report says

Tigerace117 said:
Poor Russia. Poor, poor Russia. It's almost like they have a long history of supporting a totalitarian ideology which has murdered millions of innocent people, including aiding in the propping up of the North Korean regime following its brutal attack on South Korea, and thus people are hypersensitive to their incursions.

But I forgot--- you made this thread to complain about how you think Russia, North Korea and China are the victims of the big bad US :roll:
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Not in the least - merely to point out that when WE do "it" then it is "normal flight training operations in international airspace", but when THEY do "it" then it is a "violation of our ADIZ".

There is absolutely no legal requirement for (let's say) American military aircraft to comply with any direction given by (let's say) Russian military aircraft when those (let's say) American military aircraft are in a unilaterally declared (let's say) Russian ADIZ - as long as those (let's say) American military aircraft are NOT in (let's say) Russian territorial airspace AND if those (let's say) American military aircraft DO NOT comply with the directions from those (let's say) Russian military aircraft when the (let's say) American military aircraft are in a (let's say) Russian unilaterally declared ADIZ BUT NOT in (let's say) Russian territorial airspace there is absolutely nothing that those (let's say) Russian military aircraft can do about it (if the [let's say] Russian pilots don't get intimidated by dangerous actions [short of actually shooting] by the [let's say] American pilots).

Now - what is the legal requirement for (let's say) Russian military aircraft to comply with any direction given by (let's say) American military aircraft when those (let's say) Russian military aircraft are in a unilaterally declared (let's say) American ADIZ - as long as those (let's say) Russian military aircraft are NOT in (let's say) American territorial airspace AND what can the (let's say) American pilots do about it if those (let's say) Russians do NOT comply?
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Not in the least - merely to point out that when WE do "it" then it is "normal flight training operations in international airspace", but when THEY do "it" then it is a "violation of our ADIZ".

There is absolutely no legal requirement for (let's say) American military aircraft to comply with any direction given by (let's say) Russian military aircraft when those (let's say) American military aircraft are in a unilaterally declared (let's say) Russian ADIZ - as long as those (let's say) American military aircraft are NOT in (let's say) Russian territorial airspace AND if those (let's say) American military aircraft DO NOT comply with the directions from those (let's say) Russian military aircraft when the (let's say) American military aircraft are in a (let's say) Russian unilaterally declared ADIZ BUT NOT in (let's say) Russian territorial airspace there is absolutely nothing that those (let's say) Russian military aircraft can do about it (if the [let's say] Russian pilots don't get intimidated by dangerous actions [short of actually shooting] by the [let's say] American pilots).

Now - what is the legal requirement for (let's say) Russian military aircraft to comply with any direction given by (let's say) American military aircraft when those (let's say) Russian military aircraft are in a unilaterally declared (let's say) American ADIZ - as long as those (let's say) Russian military aircraft are NOT in (let's say) American territorial airspace AND what can the (let's say) American pilots do about it if those (let's say) Russians do NOT comply?
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In other words, to whine about how you think the totalitarian regime isn't bein treated "fairly".

And all the hypotheticals in the world don't change the fact that there is no obligation for anyone to tolerate Russian antics, particularly given their long history of territorial aggression.
 
Tigerace117 said:
In other words, to whine about how you think the totalitarian regime isn't bein treated "fairly".

And all the hypotheticals in the world don't change the fact that there is no obligation for anyone to tolerate Russian antics, particularly given their long history of territorial aggression.
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Pointing out hypocrisy is not "whining" (even if your side is the side whose hypocrisy is being pointed out).

PS - If a Russian bomber flies into an American ADIZ and then turns to fly parallel to the coastline 20 miles out to sea, and the Russian bomber refuses to heed (or even acknowledge) any directions from an American aircraft, the American aircraft has no legal right to interfere with the Russian aircraft.

PPS - If an American bomber flies into a Russian ADIZ and then turns to fly parallel to the coastline 20 miles out to sea, and the American bomber refuses to heed (or even acknowledge) any directions from a Russian aircraft, the Russian aircraft has no legal right to interfere with the American aircraft.

PPPS - In the above situations the American media would describe the Russian aircraft that entered the American ADIZ as "violating" something but would describe the American aircraft that entered the Russian ADIZ as "conducting normal flight training operations".
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
No, NO, NO, NO! NO!!!

When Russia flies fly into another country's unilaterally declared ADIZ they are "violating airspace".

When the US flies into another country's unilaterally declared ADIZ it is "conducting routine flight training operations".

The two have absolutely NOTHING in common with each other.

Just ask adpst if you don't believe me.
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~~~~~~
I guess you've forgotten Russian provocations of the past. Remember the following or was that too long ago for you?

Korean Airlines flight shot down by Soviet Union - Sep 01 1983...
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/korean-airlines-flight...
In its first public statement concerning the September 1983 incident, the Soviet government merely noted that an unidentified aircraft had been shot down flying over Russian territory. The United States government reacted with horror to the disaster. The Department of State suggested that the Soviets knew the plane was an unarmed civilian …
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Russian bombers fly over Korean peninsula as US conducts ...
Russian bombers fly over Korean peninsula as US conducts exercises - Business Insider
Russian Tu-95 bombers fly during a joint Kazakh-Russian military exercise at Otar military range, some 150km (93 miles) west of Almaty, October 3, 2008. Shamil Zhumatov/Reuters Russian nuclear-capable strategic bombers have flown a rare mission around the Korean peninsula at the same time as the United States and South Korea conduct joint military exercises that have infuriated Pyongyang.
 
Thoreau72 said:
What do you call it when we go to space together? Do we share the ISS with our enemies?
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...a joint venture. It doesn't make us allies any more than having dinner with a friend makes you lovers.

We are allied with most of the EU via NATO and with Korea via a mutual defense treaty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutua...n_the_United_States_and_the_Republic_of_Korea

We have a written compact of allegiance. We have no such compact with Russia. They are NOT our allies; they have historically been an enemy.
 
upsideguy said:
...a joint venture. It doesn't make us allies any more than having dinner with a friend makes you lovers.

We are allied with most of the EU via NATO and with Korea via a mutual defense treaty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutua...n_the_United_States_and_the_Republic_of_Korea

We have a written compact of allegiance. We have no such compact with Russia. They are NOT our allies; they have historically been an enemy.
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Geez, all the Russians I know personally, about 3, are nice guys and gals.

Domestic enemies have successfully assaulted the USC. That's way more harmful than whatever the Russians did to our elections, if any.

Your apparent Russophobia is a sign of the times.
 
Thoreau72 said:
Geez, all the Russians I know personally, about 3, are nice guys and gals.

Domestic enemies have successfully assaulted the USC. That's way more harmful than whatever the Russians did to our elections, if any.

Your apparent Russophobia is a sign of the times.
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If I knew any North Koreans, I sure I would like a few as well. It means NOTHING. Anecdotes are only an argument in an ALL or NONE proposition, otherwise they are just nice stories.... so, its nice you have met some Russians you like.

First, let me point out that I said Russia has historically been an enemy of the US. I said nothing about its current status. But, ok, lets go there....

Enemies of America are defined by the actions of their governments against ours. So, lets not forget that the Russian government continues with an arsenal of 1,950 nuclear warheads, substantially all of them aimed at the US, including a city near you. That tends to put them into the enemy category. Moreover, they recently waged an attack on our elections that put a taint on the outcome. In most circles and in normal times in America, that would be considered an attack that required some type of retaliation.

So, if based on the same size of three friends and against all normal ways of looking at this, you think Russia is a friend of the US..... well.... some people are so deep into the woods that efforts to organize a rescue are futile. This naive notion that Russia is suddenly our friend seems to be an ugly sign of our times.

While Ronald Reagan rolls in his grave, the cultists have forgone truth and common sense to feel good in their worship of a "leader" destined for the gates of Hell.
 
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TU Curmudgeon said:
Pointing out hypocrisy is not "whining" (even if your side is the side whose hypocrisy is being pointed out).

PS - If a Russian bomber flies into an American ADIZ and then turns to fly parallel to the coastline 20 miles out to sea, and the Russian bomber refuses to heed (or even acknowledge) any directions from an American aircraft, the American aircraft has no legal right to interfere with the Russian aircraft.

PPS - If an American bomber flies into a Russian ADIZ and then turns to fly parallel to the coastline 20 miles out to sea, and the American bomber refuses to heed (or even acknowledge) any directions from a Russian aircraft, the Russian aircraft has no legal right to interfere with the American aircraft.

PPPS - In the above situations the American media would describe the Russian aircraft that entered the American ADIZ as "violating" something but would describe the American aircraft that entered the Russian ADIZ as "conducting normal flight training operations".
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That is not quite how it works though, and even if it is called training operations, those aircraft can be fair game if caught in their airspace, america lost 2 spyplanes over russia and cuba violating airspace, and there are probably many more non mentioned cases. However both countries generally go by how far they go into their airspace to determine action. Sometimes aircraft cross over to test defense and response times, other times they are doing training crawling along airspace borders where a tiny error in navigation can put them a few miles inside the others airspace.

The usual response is to radio the jets and send in interceptors,if they are responsive they fly out of the airspace or if far enough in either escorted out of the airspace or escorted to the ground, Usually most countries will only shoot down those aircraft if they refuse to respond.
 
upsideguy said:
If I knew any North Koreans, I sure I would like a few as well. It means NOTHING. Anecdotes are only an argument in an ALL or NONE proposition, otherwise they are just nice stories.... so, its nice you have met some Russians you like.

First, let me point out that I said Russia has historically been an enemy of the US. I said nothing about its current status. But, ok, lets go there....

Enemies of America are defined by the actions of their governments against ours. So, lets not forget that the Russian government continues with an arsenal of 1,950 nuclear warheads, substantially all of them aimed at the US, including a city near you. That tends to put them into the enemy category. Moreover, they recently waged an attack on our elections that put a taint on the outcome. In most circles and in normal times in America, that would be considered an attack that required some type of retaliation.

So, if based on the same size of three friends and against all normal ways of looking at this, you think Russia is a friend of the US..... well.... some people are so deep into the woods that efforts to organize a rescue are futile. This naive notion that Russia is suddenly our friend seems to be an ugly sign of our times.

While Ronald Reagan rolls in his grave, the cultists have forgone truth and common sense to feel good in their worship of a "leader" destined for the gates of Hell.
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Enemies of America?

Back at Fort Bragg in 1969 I took the oath of office, and that oath distinguishes between "foreign" enemies of the US Constitution, and "domestic" enemies of the US Constitution. Did you know that? Do you accept that there are foreign enemies and domestic enemies?

Aside from arming itself with nuclear weapons after the US threatened it with ours, what exactly has Russia done to attack this country or its founding document?

Depending upon your reply, I would like to discuss what harm has been caused by domestic enemies. Would you like to play?

Aside from defending itself, a sovereign right, what has Russia done to us?
 
Thoreau72 said:
Enemies of America?

Back at Fort Bragg in 1969 I took the oath of office, and that oath distinguishes between "foreign" enemies of the US Constitution, and "domestic" enemies of the US Constitution. Did you know that? Do you accept that there are foreign enemies and domestic enemies?

Aside from arming itself with nuclear weapons after the US threatened it with ours, what exactly has Russia done to attack this country or its founding document?

Depending upon your reply, I would like to discuss what harm has been caused by domestic enemies. Would you like to play?

Aside from defending itself, a sovereign right, what has Russia done to us?
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Many people become lost in spite of their excellent training.
 
Doc91478 said:
~~~~~~
I guess you've forgotten Russian provocations of the past. Remember the following or was that too long ago for you?

Korean Airlines flight shot down by Soviet Union - Sep 01 1983...
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/korean-airlines-flight...
In its first public statement concerning the September 1983 incident, the Soviet government merely noted that an unidentified aircraft had been shot down flying over Russian territory.
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Did you note the emphasized part? What does actually entering into another country's territorial airspace have to do with flying into an ADIZ?

[HINT - Absolutely nothing.]

Doc91478 said:
The United States government reacted with horror to the disaster. The Department of State suggested that the Soviets knew the plane was an unarmed civilian …
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You can "suggest" all you want, and you will receive the same response that Iran got when a USN vessel (while in Iranian territorial waters) shot down an Iranian passenger jet.

Doc91478 said:
Russian bombers fly over Korean peninsula as US conducts ...[/SIZE][/B]
Russian bombers fly over Korean peninsula as US conducts exercises - Business Insider
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Interesting article. Did you notice that the headline and the body don't say the same thing?

Did you read all the way down to paragraph 4 where it said "The flight, which also included planes with advanced intelligence gathering capabilities, was over international waters"?

Of course you didn't.
 
beerftw said:
That is not quite how it works though, and even if it is called training operations, those aircraft can be fair game if caught in their airspace ...
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Yep, but "their airspace" and "their ADIZ" are NOT the same thing.

beerftw said:
The usual response is to radio the jets and send in interceptors,if they are responsive they fly out of the airspace or if far enough in either escorted out of the airspace or escorted to the ground, Usually most countries will only shoot down those aircraft if they refuse to respond.
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Yep, but the shooting down isn't going to happen until AFTER "the other guy" has actually flown into "our" territorial airspace. In the ADIZ there is no legal right to do anything other than observe - and you can do that even without an ADIZ.
 
beerftw said:
That is not quite how it works though, and even if it is called training operations, those aircraft can be fair game if caught in their airspace, america lost 2 spyplanes over russia and cuba violating airspace, and there are probably many more non mentioned cases. However both countries generally go by how far they go into their airspace to determine action. Sometimes aircraft cross over to test defense and response times, other times they are doing training crawling along airspace borders where a tiny error in navigation can put them a few miles inside the others airspace.

The usual response is to radio the jets and send in interceptors,if they are responsive they fly out of the airspace or if far enough in either escorted out of the airspace or escorted to the ground, Usually most countries will only shoot down those aircraft if they refuse to respond.
Click to expand...

Violating a counties territorial airspace is different than entering the ADIZ of said country. The ADIZ can extend far beyond the legal boarders of a country, and can not legally be used as an excuse to shoot down airplanes in it. Violating a countries airspace can and often will result in the plane being shot down. The ADIZ is just an area the country in question will request the identification of airplanes that enter it.
 
upsideguy said:
Many people become lost in spite of their excellent training.
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Many more become lost and confused BECAUSE of their excellent training and conditioning.

Some learn to throw off the rose-colored glasses, some are never able.

Interesting but no surprise that you avoid the topic of domestic v. foreign enemies of the USC. Why the silence?
 
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