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‘Super Polluting’ Trucks Receive Loophole on Pruitt’s Last Day

Waddy said:
I agree that there are some things that are certainly better off trucked in. But lots of product currently trucked could be railed. And even though the product then has to be locally trucked to end destination, the costs would probably even out over just trucking it all.

The real advantage of trucking is inventory control. To make rail cost effective it has to be bulk. Let's say Harley Davidson needs 100,000 handlebars for the year. It would be much cheaper to have them all delivered on one rail shipment. As opposed to say, 1,000 handlebars at a time trucking them in. Storage issues aside, there is a very, very good reason why the more expensive trucking option might be a better choice.

Handle bar #10 on the production line has a major defect. Looking at the problem, NONE of those first 10 handlebars are going to work, and there is no quick fix. If you only have 990 more handlebars all having the same defect in the parts bins, then it's no big deal. Inconvenient, yes. Just order new handlebars and have them trucked in immediately. But if you have 100,000 defective handlebars in the parts warehouse you now have a real, Oh, Sh**, problem !! The answer to this problem was "just in time" inventory, and trucking it in. The other advantage of "just in time" is it's much easier to make product changes on the fly. Customer/dealer feedback says the handlebars need to be 4 inches wider? Just go through the 1,000 you have in stock and order the next batch 4" wider.

Trucking has become so popular with almost all manufacturers because manufacturers don't trust their suppliers, and those suppliers don't trust their suppliers. Nowhere in the supply chain is there much trust. People have been burned too many times. Heads have rolled, business contracts lost......

So you're right; rail will probably never get back some of their business. It is still a much cheaper way to ship. Just has it's disadvantages. Which could be overcome, but I doubt it.
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My sister, who several years back used to work for HUB International, which was a multi platform shipping company, using ship, rail, trucking all the way to final delivery, told me about 10 years ago that the model for the future being studied then was more in line with what you envision, but the simple fact is that our economy is so diverse in terms of goods, that it still hasn't come to full fruition....As a trucker, I say good...because one thing that comes along with that sort of thing is that wages for those of us who have made this one of the last decent ways to make a good living, support a family, and retire in a middle class setting would see that disappear....

For instance...I currently work for a contract carrier that works in the supply chain of bread from bakery to warehouse for delivery the next day. The trips are regional (about 600 miles) and I can get three of them in a week making about $70K per year....Now, if that were to somehow be figured out that it could be done by rail (I don't see how) and all we had left is delivery to the stores, our pay would drop by at least $30K per year....No way I could take that kind of hit...

I will agree that certain manufactured items as well as some natural resources like coal can be railed to destination, as companies like JB Hunt, Schneider, etc. are already doing such, which is why you see the piggy backed trailers on flat bed rail cars....A driver can only expect to make realistically, about $45K with these companies as well...

Currently, the transportation industry is experiencing a dramatic shortage of drivers yearly as well, and that could be due to it just not keeping up with what people expect for compensation to stay out on the road a week at a time...

So, it's a complicated issue, and after trying to think about it overnight, it is a really complicated issue for sure, and I'll meet you half way, which I think you've been trying to do as well, and say that some things could be railed, which if the current shortage of drivers continues, will have to be, there are many items that will always need to be shipped by truck...

Which as long as that continues for another 9 years, I can retire and then y'all can do what you want....lol....
 
apdst said:
There isn't anyway a driverless truck can perform all the duties of a truck driver on most loads. Especially a load that requires any kind of securement.
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Absolutely...We will not see anything close during our careers....I can see certain functions being automated such as docking, or lane control to increase safety, and cut down on minor damage claims, but in the near future, that's about it....Drivers will continue to be the backbone of logistics for at least decades to come.
 
Middle_Ground said:
It's a good thing we really don't have to worry about that...isn't it?
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Yeah...believe that. Remember that when you pay $5,000 for a DPF filter that isn't covered under the warranty and hopefully the DPF system doesn't shut the truck down and you have to pay another $1,000 for a wrecker.
 
Ahlevah said:
The "robot" trucks better have an otherwise unemployed trucker riding shotgun, or else they're going to be carrying a lot of free **** for thieves.
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Who is going to unhook the tractor to hook up another trailer?

I thought the driver did that.

If the truck is going to have to have employees riding in it anyway, what is the point?
 
The Mark said:
I was half joking, but they'll probably try it at some point.
That, or use some method to seal the truck at one end of the trip and unseal it at the other.
Probably a combo.
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There can be inspections by Highway Patrol along the way.

That will have to be factored in.
 
Middle_Ground said:
It's a good thing we really don't have to worry about that...isn't it?
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Don't know depends on your warranty the dealer and how fast you need to be serviced. Some warranties are not very good.
 
apdst said:
Yeah...believe that. Remember that when you pay $5,000 for a DPF filter that isn't covered under the warranty and hopefully the DPF system doesn't shut the truck down and you have to pay another $1,000 for a wrecker.
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I guess you've never heard of making friends. We are not new at this. We'll do the same thing we did last time....run the trucks until the real estate market tanks again. By the way if your not smart enough to put funds away for maintenance and repairs you have No one to blame but yourself when the truck is sitting for weeks. We've been running since February currently 17k sitting in the ( **** up fund) when it hits 25 we'll throw 10 on principal and keep 15 for stupid ****. Like a few weeks ago when a deer took out a headlight. Of course it happened during the blitz.
**** happens!
 
j-mac said:
I'd sure like to pick your brain sometime about getting started...
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I am sure middleground can chime in too, she just bought 2 brand new units. Start another thread on it and let me know. Then pick away. I know SOME answers. I don't know all. Just so you know.
 
Middle_Ground said:
I guess you've never heard of making friends. We are not new at this. We'll do the same thing we did last time....run the trucks until the real estate market tanks again. By the way if your not smart enough to put funds away for maintenance and repairs you have No one to blame but yourself when the truck is sitting for weeks. We've been running since February currently 17k sitting in the ( **** up fund) when it hits 25 we'll throw 10 on principal and keep 15 for stupid ****. Like a few weeks ago when a deer took out a headlight. Of course it happened during the blitz.
**** happens!
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Curiosity speaks to me, what sector you running? How are the rates you have been getting?
 
Chomsky said:
Source: (NYT) ‘Super Polluting’ Trucks Receive Loophole on Pruitt’s Last Day

This is what the Trump-GOP EPA looks like, and where our future lies.

I'm at a loss to understand the logic of putting lobbyists & CEOs in charge of a public-health & environment watchdog organization. The conflict of interest would seem obvious to even the most casual observer.
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It's a feature, not a bug. When you want to gut an agency you let someone who hates that agency run it.

It would have been cheaper if Trump had just moved to rescind all environmental rules and completely defund the EPA.
 
Mason66 said:
Who is going to unhook the tractor to hook up another trailer?

I thought the driver did that.

If the truck is going to have to have employees riding in it anyway, what is the point?
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One possibility I read about was truck caravans, with a human leading a train of bot-driven trucks.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
The question is what turd is going to replace Pruitt? Could there be someone worse or just as bad? Or is it possible the position will be kept vacant?
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Another turd, that is all of Trump's appointments. Tonight he will nominate Stalin for the Supreme Court.
 
Middle_Ground said:
I guess you've never heard of making friends. We are not new at this. We'll do the same thing we did last time....run the trucks until the real estate market tanks again. By the way if your not smart enough to put funds away for maintenance and repairs you have No one to blame but yourself when the truck is sitting for weeks. We've been running since February currently 17k sitting in the ( **** up fund) when it hits 25 we'll throw 10 on principal and keep 15 for stupid ****. Like a few weeks ago when a deer took out a headlight. Of course it happened during the blitz.
**** happens!
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It sounds like you're new at it, or you're going to **** someone out of some money.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Curiosity speaks to me, what sector you running? How are the rates you have been getting?
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Lol no sector everywhere have a team running 1 and my husband and a friend running the other 1 week on 1 week off.
 
Mason66 said:
There can be inspections by Highway Patrol along the way.

That will have to be factored in.
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That could be worked around - some kind of certification of contents included in the sealing process at start point, or whatever.
 
Alright, I know J-Mac has me at a practical disadvantage in things trucking for sure, and it seems Pirate has a bit of a grasp on the technical nature of these specific combustion precesses, so I'm willing to defer a fair amount to you guys here.

j-mac said:
Point #1. "Gliders" are not something I see as viable to companies over 10 power units. They are something that smaller start ups may opt for to get their business started.

Point #2. Truck manufactures are placing deals on slightly used fleet trucks, say a 2016 Volvo vnl670, with 350k miles on it, loaded out for around $90k, so I don't think gliders are an issue.

Point #3. Emissions standardized trucks with DEF systems have been in use now since 2008, and no larger company that I know is going to let you sub a power unit that old to run for them....


This is a non issue in the industry.

Sent from my SM-T587P using Tapatalk
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So it seems you're saying the economic and practical aspects of this exemption mean it will be limited in market penetration, and limited in functional time frame? So very few trucks, for just a few years?

If indeed so, than that's livable I suppose. But that's an "if". If this turns-out to be an end-run against the tighter EPA regs for the industry in general, then I'll stick to my guns in strongly denouncing this.

But regardless, I still am not happy with government picking winners & losers. If the regs are problematic, phase them in using a method that is the least painful - for everyone alike. I'm no fan of making some citizens or organizations "special", and believe it's too likely to spawn corruption.

PirateMk1 said:
Super polluting trucks? What a bunch of horse****. The trucks they are talking about reuse some very good reliable motors that are as fuel efficient TODAY as the brand new motors, without all the pollution control junk.

The difference in most pollution aspects between EPA 10 and pre EPA 03 motors is Nitrogen oxide emissions. Both motors burn hotter and therefore burn off almost all the fuel soot and ash. There is very very little in the way of particulate matter left. A good running diesel wont puff any smoke under acceleration. Burning hotter also increases fuel efficiency. But burning hotter also has adverse chemistry because the temps cause the nitrogen and the oxygen in the air to start to combine. Newer engines used a combination of ways to reduce emissions, starting with exhaust gas recirculation, lower combustion temperatures, and selective catalyst reduction. The newest motors do away with egr and lower exhaust temps altogether and rely mainly on SCR. Fuel efficiency with these motors has went down between 2003 and 2012 from mid 7.5 mpg average to 5.5mpg and are only starting to come back up because of the new SCR strategies. One of the main reason fuel efficiency went down was because of something called parked regeneration in order to clean the dpf filters that were added to the exhaust to meet particulate emissions standards because they reduced the temp of the combustion process to reduce NOX but increased particulate matter production. The dpf filter sprays fuel into the exhaust to bring burn the particulates in the catalyst chamber in order for the filter e somewhat self cleaning. I guarantee you that the difference in pollution from a 7.5mpg truck and 5.5mpg truck is night and day just from the pollution caused from the processing and shipment of diesel. Using more pollutes more.
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Well hang with me here, then.

My experience with engines is back in the day having been involved with building a few carbureted Chevy small-blocks. I was good enough at it then, but don't claim to be a pro at diesels or modern emissions.

But I assure you I can tell a noisy lifter from a bad rod bearing! :mrgreen:

Anyway, the article called these trucks "super polluters", because they claim the old standards have NOx emissions 40-55X that of the new engine standards. If so, that's a big deal. NOx is a nasty pollutant, harmful to humans, and is one of the primary pollutants addressed by the EPA. It was the pollutant that brought down the Volkswagen exec, who's pleaded to criminal charges and is facing a possible 169 years.

You're claiming the mileage of the new engines dropped from 7.5MPG to 5.5MPG, which I find shocking. But even taking this at face value, I don't see how the fractionally higher MPG of the older engines can make-up for the magnitudes higher NOx emissions.

As to your claim of the mileage difference in raw fuel production emissions making-up for the 55X increase in NOx, I have no idea but I'm wary of this claim. I'd be willing to look at documentation claiming so, though.
 
Chomsky said:
Alright, I know J-Mac has me at a practical disadvantage in things trucking for sure, and it seems Pirate has a bit of a grasp on the technical nature of these specific combustion precesses, so I'm willing to defer a fair amount to you guys here.

So it seems you're saying the economic and practical aspects of this exemption mean it will be limited in market penetration, and limited in functional time frame? So very few trucks, for just a few years?
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That's exactly right....Back in the early 2000s before the emissions standards started hitting the trucking industry, I helped a couple of friends put together a business plan to shop around a start up in the roll off container business to try and shop it around for capital. At that time the cost difference between new and used was about 40%, while a 'glider' could be built with new hydraulics at about 60% of new, with a warranty on the engine and drive train. It was a viable option for our start up because in my very limited experience at the time, these units would, according to plan, only have to be in the start up fleet for a max of 2-3 years until the business could start replacing them with new lease units that would be under full warranty and reliability...

Since that time, the start up never got off the ground, so I remained a driver for several medium, to large companies...And, from what I see, since the inception of emission standards, and ongoing R&D to make DEF systems more reliable, coupled with lease deals that allow just about anyone with decent credit to virtually go into a dealer and drive out with a brand new rig under lease for about 1/4 to 1/2 of what that truck can make in a week. So, I don't see anyone with a long term stance in considering going O/O {owner operator} going the glider path....

If indeed so, than that's livable I suppose. But that's an "if". If this turns-out to be an end-run against the tighter EPA regs for the industry in general, then I'll stick to my guns in strongly denouncing this.
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I don't think you need worry too much about this. What is important is that with all the factors out there ie; Just in Time {JIT}, DoT regs, as well as increased traffic on lanes of travel it is imperative that what ever a budding O/O decides to get into, that person is going to be expected to get that load there without fail....I just don't think 'gliders' offer that reliability.

But regardless, I still am not happy with government picking winners & losers....
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Little tongue in cheek here, with a screen name like "Chomsky" I find that hard to believe....lol

If the regs are problematic, phase them in using a method that is the least painful - for everyone alike. I'm no fan of making some citizens or organizations "special", and believe it's too likely to spawn corruption.
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Last I heard, the industry is looking at a shortage of drivers of approximately 50,000 per year for the next decade due to increased freight, retiring of the old guard like me, and the nature of trucking being less desirable for incoming recruits thinking about making that a career....Companies are looking for enticements to lure prospective drivers in such as brand new units, loaded out with fridges, microwaves, even some companies offering satellite tv service in the truck....The lease deals that even a medium sized company can get on spec trucks like this are just insane...My company for instance, I've been with them for 10 years, and in 2016 I was given a brand new Volvo vnl670 condo sleeper, with hook ups for tv, and microwave, power throughout. Very nice truck...I believe that they leased that truck for about half of what they would have bought it for....The thing about it is that my company is not a Swift, Schneider, or JB Hunt with thousands of units on the road. We have about 600 drivers with roughly 500 power units, so a medium sized company for sure....

In short, it just doesn't make sense to go the glider path unless you are talking about local business, and even then I'd be concerned about down time due to mechanical issues.

Hope that helps.
 
Chomsky said:
Source: (NYT) ‘Super Polluting’ Trucks Receive Loophole on Pruitt’s Last Day

This is what the Trump-GOP EPA looks like, and where our future lies.

I'm at a loss to understand the logic of putting lobbyists & CEOs in charge of a public-health & environment watchdog organization. The conflict of interest would seem obvious to even the most casual observer.
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Well, don't you know that having more crap in the air makes America great?

We can only hope that state Environmental Agencies act to ban such trucks. If CA and NY ban the trucks they can't operate in these big markets.
 
MTAtech said:
Well, don't you know that having more crap in the air makes America great?
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:roll: Yes, yes....The old saw....Republican's want dirty air, dirty water....etc....boring.
 
j-mac said:
That's exactly right....Back in the early 2000s before the emissions standards started hitting the trucking industry, I helped a couple of friends put together a business plan to shop around a start up in the roll off container business to try and shop it around for capital. At that time the cost difference between new and used was about 40%, while a 'glider' could be built with new hydraulics at about 60% of new, with a warranty on the engine and drive train. It was a viable option for our start up because in my very limited experience at the time, these units would, according to plan, only have to be in the start up fleet for a max of 2-3 years until the business could start replacing them with new lease units that would be under full warranty and reliability...

Since that time, the start up never got off the ground, so I remained a driver for several medium, to large companies...And, from what I see, since the inception of emission standards, and ongoing R&D to make DEF systems more reliable, coupled with lease deals that allow just about anyone with decent credit to virtually go into a dealer and drive out with a brand new rig under lease for about 1/4 to 1/2 of what that truck can make in a week. So, I don't see anyone with a long term stance in considering going O/O {owner operator} going the glider path....



I don't think you need worry too much about this. What is important is that with all the factors out there ie; Just in Time {JIT}, DoT regs, as well as increased traffic on lanes of travel it is imperative that what ever a budding O/O decides to get into, that person is going to be expected to get that load there without fail....I just don't think 'gliders' offer that reliability.



Little tongue in cheek here, with a screen name like "Chomsky" I find that hard to believe....lol
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Last I heard, the industry is looking at a shortage of drivers of approximately 50,000 per year for the next decade due to increased freight, retiring of the old guard like me, and the nature of trucking being less desirable for incoming recruits thinking about making that a career....Companies are looking for enticements to lure prospective drivers in such as brand new units, loaded out with fridges, microwaves, even some companies offering satellite tv service in the truck....The lease deals that even a medium sized company can get on spec trucks like this are just insane...My company for instance, I've been with them for 10 years, and in 2016 I was given a brand new Volvo vnl670 condo sleeper, with hook ups for tv, and microwave, power throughout. Very nice truck...I believe that they leased that truck for about half of what they would have bought it for....The thing about it is that my company is not a Swift, Schneider, or JB Hunt with thousands of units on the road. We have about 600 drivers with roughly 500 power units, so a medium sized company for sure....

In short, it just doesn't make sense to go the glider path unless you are talking about local business, and even then I'd be concerned about down time due to mechanical issues.

Hope that helps.
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Thanks for taking the time & effort to pen this.

Man, I'm really glad to see that last paragraph. If there ever was a barometer of the economy, it's got to be trucking!

And interesting you mention JB Hunt. What a phenomenal success story! In my lifetime they went from a tiny regional outfit, to what's got to be one of the biggest around.

(I grew-up in an industrial railroad & docks neighborhood - trucks everywhere)

Little tongue in cheek here, with a screen name like "Chomsky" I find that hard to believe....lol
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Actually though, the real-life Chomsky is anti-government. In fact, he's 'anti' any kind of controlling power or authority. At his core, he's probably an anarchist. A non-violent anarchist, and he'd indeed prefer to be stateless if possible.

My thing for him is his writing expands my thinking, my ways of looking at events. He has a great way of destroying my perceived foundations and preconceived notions, making me examine them afresh.
 
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