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Liberal states impose new individual mandate ahead of ObamaCare rollback

Nickyjo;1068757092]Why don't you go preach that to the rest of the developed world that pays less for healthcare and has better outcomes? I can see it now: tens of thousands in the streets chanting, "Take away government healthcare! Give us the pre-Medicare US system! Let us save for our healthcare and retirement even if we lose our jobs!" Canada, Britain, France, Sweden, Germany, even Mexico ... falling like dominos and abandoning their systems.
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That's because you buy what you are being told and ignore the true hidden costs of healthcare and taxes on other services that pay for it. There is no such thing as a free lunch except in the liberal utopia that doesn't exist.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/price-of-public-health-care-insurance-2016.pdf

Medicare has worked since the 1960s... Reagan said it would be so bad that it would have me telling my kid what things were like when America used to be free. He recovered from that nonsense when elected to office. Social Security has worked since the 1930s. I have gotten more out of it than I put in. Wouldn't happen under your plan, as you are forgetting what insurance is about. Also, the ACA has helped 10 million+ more be insured. Not a bad record for liberals.
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Again, you believe what you are told, how do you know Medicare works and there isn't a better option? What is the true cost of Medicare or do you even care? You buy the marketing by the left that the federal bureaucrats can do a better job than you can do yourself given the same opportunity. Medicare like SS are now at the top of the budget costs for this country and filled with waste, fraud, and abuse.

As for ACA most of those signing up for ACA were eligible for Medicaid but the true problem is we still have over 27 million Americans uninsured with ACA but you wouldn't know that by listening to the media. For something that you claim is so great the electorate rejected it

And speaking of personal responsibility, how was I responsible for getting an incurable disease, with the result that insurance companies wouldn't cover me? I survived through a government program to help uninsurables, then through Medicare. Thanks for your help, America. You did yourself proud.
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When exactly did you establish that entitlement mentality that someone else should pay for your personal responsibility issues.

I have never used the fire department, but I don't resent being taxed to pay for it. No different than Medicare. And I kept my doctor when I got Medicare. He said they are more efficient than many insurance companies when it comes to payments.
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Your federal taxes don't fund the fire department either, your local taxes do but apparently you are like so many no idea what taxes you pay or their purpose

Face it, this is the way the modern world works, benefiting from the reforms of the last 100 years. No one will get elected preaching what you have suggested, so it ain't gonna change.
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What reforms? over 60% of the US budget is entitlement spending and you believe a one size fits all Federal Program for approximate 330 million Americans is feasible? Liberalism isn't free, healthcare isn't free, and no matter how you spin it, neither is personal responsibility
 
Nickyjo said:
Why don't you go preach that to the rest of the developed world that pays less for healthcare and has better outcomes? I can see it now: tens of thousands in the streets chanting, "Take away government healthcare! Give us the pre-Medicare US system! Let us save for our healthcare and retirement even if we lose our jobs!" Canada, Britain, France, Sweden, Germany, even Mexico ... falling like dominos and abandoning their systems.

Medicare has worked since the 1960s... Reagan said it would be so bad that it would have me telling my kid what things were like when America used to be free. He recovered from that nonsense when elected to office. Social Security has worked since the 1930s. I have gotten more out of it than I put in. Wouldn't happen under your plan, as you are forgetting what insurance is about. Also, the ACA has helped 10 million+ more be insured. Not a bad record for liberals.

And speaking of personal responsibility, how was I responsible for getting an incurable disease, with the result that insurance companies wouldn't cover me? I survived through a government program to help uninsurables, then through Medicare. Thanks for your help, America. You did yourself proud.

I have never used the fire department, but I don't resent being taxed to pay for it. No different than Medicare. And I kept my doctor when I got Medicare. He said they are more efficient than many insurance companies when it comes to payments.

Face it, this is the way the modern world works, benefiting from the reforms of the last 100 years. No one will get elected preaching what you have suggested, so it ain't gonna change.
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It's hard to believe that the Democrats are still bragging about how great Obamacare is. It was a disastrous law that wound up being a huge political albatross for the Democratic party.
From 2010 to 2016, they suffered significant losses at the local and State level and lost the House and Senate majoritiee and finally the Presidency.
When Democrats were running for re-election in 2012 and 2016, they avoided the ACA like the plague essentially pretending it never existed. Didn't matter, they still lost.

Its cost increases hit the middle class and small businesses the hardest as Corporations were given wavers that allowed them to offer cheaper plans that didn't have to meet the ACAs minimum requirements for policy coverage

As for Singlepayer, Vermont actually passed a single payer law back in 2011. Green mountain care was never implented because the tax increases necessary to fund it would have collapsed the local and State economy

Vermont would have had to more than double their 1 billion dollars in annual revenue to fund it. California was forced to shelve their single payer initiative for the same reason.
Bernie Sanders rhetoric and promises of " free " stuff only appeals to his naive supporters but, everyone else knows someone's will have to pay for all of this free stuff he's promising.

Finally, the VAs treatment of Veterans gave Americans some insight into what a American single payer system would be like
Americans would have zero recourse and little choice over a massive, unaccountable and bloated bureaucracy. Sanders thinks Healthcare is a right.
Well, what happens when the same Govt that granted you that right violates it through mismanagment, lack of care or malpractice ?
 
Greenbeard said:
Translation: adverse selection = higher premiums. Red states will figure that out eventually.
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Continue to notice how you promote universal healthcare in a state that already has universal healthcare so the question is why? Liberalism is about spending in the name of compassion regardless of the reality that compassionate results aren't generated. If your state can implement Universal Healthcare and others can as well, why is this even a national program expect to gain power for the bureaucrats

Here is an interesting video that I wonder if you have the guts to watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0Dfwbr4NMg
 
Nickyjo said:
And that obviously is the most efficient way to deliver healthcare.
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18 month waits for hip replacements is efficient? A country the size of Canada has fewer MRI machines then the city of Pittsburg is efficient?
 
Nickyjo said:
And that obviously is the most efficient way to deliver healthcare.
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Perception truly is efficient in the liberal world where the adage remains the grass is always greener until you get there. What you and the rest of the left want to ignore is the true costs of healthcare in those countries you now want to emulate. You also want to ignore where the real problem lies in today's liberal world that is promoting chaos through a disguise of fairness. This is all about power and who has it, personal choice only seems to exist in the liberal world when it comes to abortions.

The problem today is you people truly are the problem not the solution.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/06/far_left_versus_far_right_spot_the_facists.html

Please feel free to point out any policy that Trump has implemented that you believe is fascist?

I would like anyone to explain to me what policies of Trump are right wing, authoritarian and fascist instead of being common sense, middle of the road policies that most people would like. Here are some of the things that Trump has done relating to major policies:

He has reduced regulations as fast as he can, moving the power and freedom back to the people and the private sector and taking away power from the powerful government. That is the opposite of what an authoritarian, fascist would do.

He has reduced taxes on businesses and individuals as fast as he can, moving the power and freedom back to the people and the private sector and taking away power from the powerful government. That is the opposite of what an authoritarian, fascist would do.

He is giving the people and businesses more freedom to choose the kind of health care they receive and the kind of health insurance policies they choose to buy. He even allows people to choose not to buy insurance if they like. That is the opposite of what an authoritarian, fascist would do.

He is seeking to enforce laws that Congress wrote, especially on immigration. How is that right wing or authoritarian?

He is negotiating directly with North Korea to try to reduce their threat to the World. What is right wing, authoritarian, dictatorial or fascist about that?

He is trying to reduce the threat of Iran to the Middle East and the rest of the World, especially as they threaten “Death to America.” What is right wing, authoritarian, dictatorial or fascist about that?

He has kept the promise of three previous presidents and Congress to move the Israeli Embassy to Israel. What is right wing, authoritarian, dictatorial or fascist about that? Isn’t that what a President should do, keep our promises?

He is asking NATO to pay what they promised to pay. Isn’t that what our President should do?

He backed out of deals that the previous president did on his own in Paris and Iran. They aren’t actually treaties if Congress didn’t approve them.
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Nickyjo said:
And that obviously is the most efficient way to deliver healthcare.
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Wasn't the point. But forcing people to buy overprices plans containing services and treatments most will never use or just don't need and then paying insurance companies extra if they don't make a profit sure isn't the most efficient either.
 
Conservative said:
As stated, let's see how you like contributing for 35 years and then receiving Medicare? My solution is take the money you and your employer contribute and put it into a private plan that is available to you when you retire
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That's a decent alternative plan, but one that much of the world has rejected. And I did pay into Medicare for 35 years. Wonderful system, as that and another US program kept me from losing everything when I was considered uninsurable. Was told by an insurance broker that I had to be symptom free for two years, something that hasn't happened for, well, at least 35 years.
 
Nickyjo said:
That's a decent alternative plan, but one that much of the world has rejected. And I did pay into Medicare for 35 years. Wonderful system, as that and another US program kept me from losing everything when I was considered uninsurable. Was told by an insurance broker that I had to be symptom free for two years, something that hasn't happened for, well, at least 35 years.
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Much of the world doesn't have approximately 330 million Americans in 50 sovereign states and much of the world relies on govt. spending for the largest component of GDP. What you want to ignore is the hidden costs in other country healthcare as I pointed out with Canadian Healthcare.

We didn't need ACA to provide for pre existing conditions nor do we need the federal bureaucrats micro management state responsibility issues. ACA was rejected by the electorate but that reality hasn't sunk in yet
 
Bullseye said:
Once again, for possible comprehension, I'm citing the Canadian government and the Frazier Institute. I am NOT saying one is better than the other. Your Canadian Chauvinism is in over drive. Oh, and the fact is anyone in America can go to an ER and receive treatment.
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The Fraser Institute completely ignores the two-thirds of the survey results that I suggested that you read.

The Canadian government is quite right to suggest that the Canadian system could do better on the one-third of the survey results that the Fraser Institute wants you to concentrate on.

Try going to the ER to receive long-term treatment for a chronic condition and see what happens.
 
Conservative said:
That's because you buy what you are being told and ignore the true hidden costs of healthcare and taxes on other services that pay for it. There is no such thing as a free lunch except in the liberal utopia that doesn't exist.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/price-of-public-health-care-insurance-2016.pdf



Again, you believe what you are told, how do you know Medicare works and there isn't a better option? What is the true cost of Medicare or do you even care? You buy the marketing by the left that the federal bureaucrats can do a better job than you can do yourself given the same opportunity. Medicare like SS are now at the top of the budget costs for this country and filled with waste, fraud, and abuse.

As for ACA most of those signing up for ACA were eligible for Medicaid but the true problem is we still have over 27 million Americans uninsured with ACA but you wouldn't know that by listening to the media. For something that you claim is so great the electorate rejected it



When exactly did you establish that entitlement mentality that someone else should pay for your personal responsibility issues.



Your federal taxes don't fund the fire department either, your local taxes do but apparently you are like so many no idea what taxes you pay or their purpose



What reforms? over 60% of the US budget is entitlement spending and you believe a one size fits all Federal Program for approximate 330 million Americans is feasible? Liberalism isn't free, healthcare isn't free, and no matter how you spin it, neither is personal responsibility
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You mix truth with outrageous assumptions and fallacies. So what if over 60% of the US budget is entitlement? They are good things, paid for by taxes passed by legislative majorities. People may not like the taxes but love the programs. I'll shift my analogy from the fire department to FEMA or some other fed disaster agency if it pleases you. Never used them. Happy to pay taxes to fund them.

But to get more personal, I have Chrohn's disease. How was I responsible when the symptoms showed up at age 16 or so? Under your plan, should I have realized how expensive the treatment for the disease, which I didn't know I had, would be over my life, and set aside a couple of million to get ready for it? Friend of mine was shot and paralyzed through no fault of his own. He has survived in part due to SS disability. Should he have been saving his money for his first 20 years so he had an "if it get shot in the back" fund? Was he irresponsible for not having done so?

This is the way the world works: in things like healthcare insurance, we spread risk over a large population to make things work. Private insurance does that. So does Medicare. Private insurance can refuse to cover someone like me. Medicare does not. I would be broke without them. I know, not your problem. But the developed world has decided over the years that it is. Read "No Man is an Island" by John Donne for more details.

Neither healthcare nor liberalism is free, admittedly. Neither is conservatism or the lack of healthcare. But I a happy to pay taxes to keep you healthy, much as you might be upset to do the same for me. Too bad. There is personal responsibility. And there is social responsibility. Most countries like ours mix both.

But let's work this out. Do you have a plan to replace the government programs that you disagree with? Has it a prayer here or in any developed country that provides healthcare benefits? Maybe we will all see the light and convert into some sort of Ayn Rand style society, accepting her ground-breaking assault on 2000 years of philosophy and every major religion's teaching. But remember, even she collected Social Security.
 
Renae said:
18 month waits for hip replacements is efficient? A country the size of Canada has fewer MRI machines then the city of Pittsburg is efficient?
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Anecdotes. I have my own from Canadian friends who say the opposite. Write when Canadians campaign to get their system replaced with one like ours pre Medicare, pre ACA.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
The Fraser Institute completely ignores the two-thirds of the survey results that I suggested that you read.
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I did read them - they deal with routine care issues like seeing your primary physicians and are based on individual perceptions. Frazier, and the CG, used measureable data to assess the state of delivery or higher order medical treatments such as hip replacements, cancer care, advanced diagnostic procedures, etc. And they found the wait times for those continued to expand, often failing to meet even the extremely lax standards the CG had set for itself.
TU curmudgeon said:
The Canadian government is quite right to suggest that the Canadian system could do better on the one-third of the survey results that the Fraser Institute wants you to concentrate on.]Well, yeah, things like cancer treatments and advanced imaging are most effective when done as soon as possible, and waiting a few weeks for hip replacement rather than several months or more is good as well.
TU Curmudgeon said:
Try going to the ER to receive long-term treatment for a chronic condition and see what happens.
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LOL, those treatments would probably fall into that into that mythical one-third you say Frazier and CG are correct on.
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Greenbeard said:
Translation: adverse selection = higher premiums. Red states will figure that out eventually.
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LOL. Blue states will eventually figure out that if you want a choice on healthcare, you move to a red state or vote Republican to change your state.
 
Nickyjo said:
You mix truth with outrageous assumptions and fallacies. So what if over 60% of the US budget is entitlement? They are good things, paid for by taxes passed by legislative majorities. People may not like the taxes but love the programs. I'll shift my analogy from the fire department to FEMA or some other fed disaster agency if it pleases you. Never used them. Happy to pay taxes to fund them.

But to get more personal, I have Chrohn's disease. How was I responsible when the symptoms showed up at age 16 or so? Under your plan, should I have realized how expensive the treatment for the disease, which I didn't know I had, would be over my life, and set aside a couple of million to get ready for it? Friend of mine was shot and paralyzed through no fault of his own. He has survived in part due to SS disability. Should he have been saving his money for his first 20 years so he had an "if it get shot in the back" fund? Was he irresponsible for not having done so?

This is the way the world works: in things like healthcare insurance, we spread risk over a large population to make things work. Private insurance does that. So does Medicare. Private insurance can refuse to cover someone like me. Medicare does not. I would be broke without them. I know, not your problem. But the developed world has decided over the years that it is. Read "No Man is an Island" by John Donne for more details.

Neither healthcare nor liberalism is free, admittedly. Neither is conservatism or the lack of healthcare. But I a happy to pay taxes to keep you healthy, much as you might be upset to do the same for me. Too bad. There is personal responsibility. And there is social responsibility. Most countries like ours mix both.

But let's work this out. Do you have a plan to replace the government programs that you disagree with? Has it a prayer here or in any developed country that provides healthcare benefits? Maybe we will all see the light and convert into some sort of Ayn Rand style society, accepting her ground-breaking assault on 2000 years of philosophy and every major religion's teaching. But remember, even she collected Social Security.
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you really need to take a history class and understand what our Founders created and what they meant by neighbor helping neighbor. What gives you the right to demand that someone else pay for your own personal responsibility issues? You think only with your heart and not with the brain you have. Yes, I always had a plan and it started with me learning personal responsibility day one that means planning for my retirement, saving for retirement and using SS as it was intended a supplement. I also had a plan for my own healthcare but that was taken away from me by forced contributions into Medicare.

What you don't seem to understand is the following:

A woman dies at age 65 before collecting one benefit check. She and her employer paid into the system for almost 50 years and she collected NOTHING! Keep in mind all the working people that die every year who were paying into the system and got nothing!
And these governmental morons mismanaged the money and stole from the system, so that it's now going broke.

My wife died at age 62, contributed to SS for years and when she died I got a check for $250. That is the benefit you want to defend? Try using an investment calculator, putting your contribution and your employees into that calculator, how much would you personally have at retirement and would that be the government's if you died or your families?
 
Conservative said:
Perception truly is efficient in the liberal world where the adage remains the grass is always greener until you get there. What you and the rest of the left want to ignore is the true costs of healthcare in those countries you now want to emulate. You also want to ignore where the real problem lies in today's liberal world that is promoting chaos through a disguise of fairness. This is all about power and who has it, personal choice only seems to exist in the liberal world when it comes to abortions.

The problem today is you people truly are the problem not the solution.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/06/far_left_versus_far_right_spot_the_facists.html

Please feel free to point out any policy that Trump has implemented that you believe is fascist?
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One has to distinguish from the epithet "fascist", which can be like calling someone a pinko or commie, from the ideology. I believe that Trump is more fascist in style than in policy, tho some of his policies ring of it a bit. Sane republicans, the courts and the press have blocked his worst tendencies.

By style, I mean the "I alone can fix it" pronouncement, the scapegoating of Mexicans, Muslims, refugees, etc., his suggestion of military parades with tanks rumbling through the capital, his suggesting that we should ignore US law and treaty law that bind us and which apply to the Hondurans and others on the border, his documented and easily disproved lies, his Mussolini-like preening, and his expressed distain for fellow democracies and admiration for dictators. You can add in his weird assumption that Judge Curiel, a third generation American, I believe, could not be impartial on the Trump U case because he was of Mexican descent and Trump planned to build a wall. Rube Goldberg would have been proud of the logic, defined as classic racism by Paul Ryan.

His put in place policies are perhaps too sloppy to qualify for fascism. "Mussolini made the trains run on time," went the saying in Italy. But impulsive actions that resulted in chaos at airports last year and at the border this year would have embarrassed Adolf and Benito, though reports of coercing families to accept deportation so they can be reunited is a nice fascist touch. But his tendencies and fantasies are fascist. See his plans to do worse torture than waterboarding. His suggestion that families of terrorists be killed is right out of the Nazi playbook for fighting the resistance in Poland and elsewhere.
 
Bullseye said:
Wasn't the point. But forcing people to buy overprices plans containing services and treatments most will never use or just don't need and then paying insurance companies extra if they don't make a profit sure isn't the most efficient either.
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Agree if true. Didn't support Obamacare, but probably the best we could get given the power of insurance companies. Medicare for all.
 
Nickyjo said:
Anecdotes. I have my own from Canadian friends who say the opposite. Write when Canadians campaign to get their system replaced with one like ours pre Medicare, pre ACA.
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Anecdote my ass.
Go look the numbers up, a oh and the comment about the MRI is from the Canadian Healthcare SYSTEM.
 
Conservative said:
Much of the world doesn't have approximately 330 million Americans in 50 sovereign states and much of the world relies on govt. spending for the largest component of GDP. What you want to ignore is the hidden costs in other country healthcare as I pointed out with Canadian Healthcare.

We didn't need ACA to provide for pre existing conditions nor do we need the federal bureaucrats micro management state responsibility issues. ACA was rejected by the electorate but that reality hasn't sunk in yet
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Don't understand. Why didn't we need the ACA to provide for pre-existing conditions? Pre ACA, I was rejected for insurance for a pre-existing condition. Was there a separate regulation or law I was unaware of? Or should I assume you mean that Congress could have passed one separate from the ACA?

I like some federal bureaucrats micro managing state responsibility issues. See safety regs, the Voting rights act, federal anti-discrimination laws, enviornmental rules, etc. When states have been irresponsible or non-responsive, people have turned to Washington. Not the best solution, perhaps, but a natural one, a style of governing set in motion decades ago absent state action.
 
Nickyjo said:
One has to distinguish from the epithet "fascist", which can be like calling someone a pinko or commie, from the ideology. I believe that Trump is more fascist in style than in policy, tho some of his policies ring of it a bit. Sane republicans, the courts and the press have blocked his worst tendencies.

By style, I mean the "I alone can fix it" pronouncement, the scapegoating of Mexicans, Muslims, refugees, etc., his suggestion of military parades with tanks rumbling through the capital, his suggesting that we should ignore US law and treaty law that bind us and which apply to the Hondurans and others on the border, his documented and easily disproved lies, his Mussolini-like preening, and his expressed distain for fellow democracies and admiration for dictators. You can add in his weird assumption that Judge Curiel, a third generation American, I believe, could not be impartial on the Trump U case because he was of Mexican descent and Trump planned to build a wall. Rube Goldberg would have been proud of the logic, defined as classic racism by Paul Ryan.

His put in place policies are perhaps too sloppy to qualify for fascism. "Mussolini made the trains run on time," went the saying in Italy. But impulsive actions that resulted in chaos at airports last year and at the border this year would have embarrassed Adolf and Benito, though reports of coercing families to accept deportation so they can be reunited is a nice fascist touch. But his tendencies and fantasies are fascist. See his plans to do worse torture than waterboarding. His suggestion that families of terrorists be killed is right out of the Nazi playbook for fighting the resistance in Poland and elsewhere.
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this is fascism, not what Trump is doing

A fascist is a follower of a political philosophy characterized by authoritarian views and a strong central government — and no tolerance for opposing opinions.

One of the first things Obama did as President was give preference to unions over other unsecured creditors and more secure bondholders in his bailout of General Motors. He essentially dictatorially rewarded his special interest unions in violation of U.S. bankruptcy law.

He passed a law that took away freedom of choice for almost all U.S citizens when he and the Democrats gave the control of what health insurance they had to buy. That is what a fascist would do who wanted a strong central government.

He had IRS target those who disagreed with him. Lois Lerner and others stifled the free speech rights of those who disagreed. That is what a fascist would do who had no tolerance for opposing opinions. Obama even compared those who wanted smaller government, lower taxes and fewer regulations to domestic terrorists.

He said that people who disagreed on climate change should not be listened to. That is what a fascist would do who had no tolerance for opposing opinions.

Obama and all the politicians from sanctuary cities and states choose to ignore their oaths of office and the laws Congress passed. They essentially believe they are above the law. Their violations of the law were completely ignored by the politicized Justice Department under Obama. Those actions are what dictators would do.

Obama, the Justice Department, Intelligence agencies and others were weaponized to let someone they supported off (another person above the law) while spying and trying to destroy a political opponent. That is what a fascist dictator who had no tolerance for opposing opinions would do.

Obama and the Justice Department sued states for requiring photo ID’s to vote while they knew that the federal government requires photo ID’s for so many other things. That clearly violates states rights and is what an authoritarian who wanted centralized government would do.

Obama unilaterally agreed to deals with Iran and with the rest of the World on climate without approval from Congress. That is what a dictator would do.
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So please, journalists and other Democrats, when your spewing forth that Trump is a fascist, right wing dictator give some actual evidence. It is especially appalling that all of these bitching about Trump allowed Obama to rule like a fascist dictator for eight years cheering all the way. He essentially wanted to remake (destroy) America by moving the power to the government from the people, exactly the opposite of what the founding fathers wanted and the opposite of what Trump is doing.
 
Nickyjo said:
Don't understand. Why didn't we need the ACA to provide for pre-existing conditions? Pre ACA, I was rejected for insurance for a pre-existing condition. Was there a separate regulation or law I was unaware of? Or should I assume you mean that Congress could have passed one separate from the ACA?

I like some federal bureaucrats micro managing state responsibility issues. See safety regs, the Voting rights act, federal anti-discrimination laws, enviornmental rules, etc. When states have been irresponsible or non-responsive, people have turned to Washington. Not the best solution, perhaps, but a natural one, a style of governing set in motion decades ago absent state action.
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Why, because it could have been granted without creating a massive govt. mandated program and higher taxes

You like a cafeteria style approach to laws picking and choosing the ones you like and discarding the others. that isn't the way this country works. I suggest you learn the taxes you pay and their purpose rather than buying what you are told. We don't need a 4 trillion dollar unified budget, we need a budget to do with the Constitution requires, NATIONAL DEFENSE
 
Conservative said:
you really need to take a history class and understand what our Founders created and what they meant by neighbor helping neighbor. What gives you the right to demand that someone else pay for your own personal responsibility issues? You think only with your heart and not with the brain you have. Yes, I always had a plan and it started with me learning personal responsibility day one that means planning for my retirement, saving for retirement and using SS as it was intended a supplement. I also had a plan for my own healthcare but that was taken away from me by forced contributions into Medicare.

What you don't seem to understand is the following:

A woman dies at age 65 before collecting one benefit check. She and her employer paid into the system for almost 50 years and she collected NOTHING! Keep in mind all the working people that die every year who were paying into the system and got nothing!
And these governmental morons mismanaged the money and stole from the system, so that it's now going broke.

My wife died at age 62, contributed to SS for years and when she died I got a check for $250. That is the benefit you want to defend? Try using an investment calculator, putting your contribution and your employees into that calculator, how much would you personally have at retirement and would that be the government's if you died or your families?
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You are demanding a level of carefulness, planning and fortune-telling that goes far beyond what people here in the US and around the world have opted to select as their own responsibility. How was I to set aside $2 million for my medical expenses? (True, I could have asked my neighbors as you think the founders might have, but there hasn't been a communal barn-raising where I live for years.)

Say I live a perfectly healthy life and never need care approaching what my private insurance will pay for. I drop dead losing out, having wasted all that money on premiums. No different than your examples. It's probably somewhere in the definition of "insurance." Our conversation is a great examination of issues, that in another context might produce recommendations to improve things. But most folks don't have the time and inclination to manage these particular parts of their life as you suggest, much as they don't pave their own interstate highways. They are happy to let Uncle Sam take care of these things, much as we long ago put away our muskets to repel foreign invasion.

As to the founders, they gave us a marvelous head start. But they lived hundreds of years ago and could not have understood the more complex world we live in now. We have adopted bur adapted their beliefs to the modern age. Actions have passed the constitutional test, or not. Approx 140 years later, there was no need for federal air traffic control when Wilbur and Orville decided to try to fly. Now there is.
 
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Nickyjo said:
You are demanding a level of carefulness, planning and fortune telling that goes far beyond what people around the world have opted to select for their own responsibility. How was I to set aside $2 million for my medical expenses? (True, I could have asked my neighbors, but there hasn't been a communal barn-raising where I live for years.)

Say I live a perfectly healthy life and never need care approaching what my private insurance will pay for. I drop dead losing out, having wasted all that money on premiums. No different than your examples.

As to the founders, they gave us a marvelous head start. But they lived hundreds of years ago and could not have understood the more complex world we live in now. We have adopted and adapted their beliefs to the modern age. Has passed the constitutional test, or not. Approx 140 years later, there was no need for federal air traffic control when Wilbur and Orville decided to try to fly. Now there is.
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No, I believe in neighbor helping neighbor with that neighbor NOT being a federal bureaucrat. I believe in personal responsibility and helping those truly in . Every dollar that goes the federal govt. is one less dollar left in your state to solve social problems. You seem ok with that, I am not
 
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