• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Paul Manafort in solitary confinement, lawyers say

Your ear for nuance is tone-deaf. a) He has NOT proven he can't be trusted (nor has the prosecution proven it). B) The consequences imposed by a trial judge given proof of witness tampering cannot be for the purpose of punishment, but it can be to revoke bail to prevent it from happening again. c) If you can't tell the difference between the assertion of the non-equivalency between two different judicial intentions, and call it a "false equivalency" because the argument is too subtle, perhaps you shouldn't be touting your superficial knowledge of courts and trials.

This grows boring.

A. He was granted bail. That bail had certain conditions attached to it, the violation of which could result in revocation of said bail.
B. He was shown to be tampering with witnesses to such a degree that the judge believed the evidence presented. IOW, the prosecution proved it to the extent they needed to, despite your protestations to the contrary. Contrary to your assertion, the evidence isn't 'weak' in the least. https://www.justsecurity.org/57518/thin-evidence-manaforts-witness-tampering-meets-standard/
C. Bail was revoked. He was then placed in solitary for his own protection.

Your false equivalency was in trying the peddle the nonsense that the punishment that comes after a verdict is the same thing as what's happening here, when what's happening here isn't punishment.

There's simply nothing, whatsoever, on any rational basis, that makes what's happened here 'Gestapo'. Zero. Zilch.

Since you have no idea what you're talking about, why continue to talk?
 
Last edited:
Again, he hasn't been convicted of a crime.

It doesn't matter. Did you read any of the materials I provided? Your outrage falls upon deaf ears when its obvious that it is rooted in ignorance, as yours seems to be.

In summary, the government can detain you if there is probable clause that you may have committed a crime. It can deny or revoke you bail if the government has probable cause to believe you would be flight risk, a danger to society OR that you might commit additional crimes while not in custody. Manafort could not behave himself, hence had his bail revoked.

Things like this happen to be people that believe they are above the law.
 
It doesn't matter. Did you read any of the materials I provided? Your outrage falls upon deaf ears when its obvious that it is rooted in ignorance, as yours seems to be.

In summary, the government can detain you if there is probable clause that you may have committed a crime. It can deny or revoke you bail if the government has probable cause to believe you would be flight risk, a danger to society OR that you might commit additional crimes while not in custody. Manafort could not behave himself, hence had his bail revoked.

Things like this happen to be people that believe they are above the law.

However, solitary confinement is a civil rights violation, in this particular case. The use of solitary confinement is a political decision, not a legal decision.
 
Due process violation or not, I was observing a fact independent of due process: "unless his work with lawyers in a jail facility has the same legal, office, and communication resources and all material is readily available then his lawyers have a good point (i.e.) Given the nature of his alleged wrong-doing, he ought to be given some periodic outside access in the custody of his attorneys."

What "should be done" by the judge remains is a different question from "must be done" by due process. Meanwhile, due process requires (obviously) that the judge follow the law that mandates procedure, evidentiary considerations, and a specific purpose to revoking bond - not just 'da judge' wants to punish someone.

After looking at the Manafort request more closely I am increasingly convinced that the judge grossly errored in her ruling, intentionally and with prejudice. In summary:

1. The District Court Failed To Assess the Strength of the Evidence Against Mr. Manafort as Required by Statute
2. The Evidence Against Mr. Manafort on Witness Tampering Is Very Weak
3. The District Court's Conclusion that Manafort is Unlikely to Abide by the Conditions of Release Rests on Multiple Errors.

For example, one needn't be a legal eagle to read the law on witness tampering, or review record of the the actual incident(s), to find the assumption of witness tampering to be, at best, very dubious and at worst clearly a frame-up job out of a prosecutor imagination and a vindictive pretext for a Judge "getting Manafort".

"Indeed, the evidence of Mr. Manafort’s alleged obstruction was so thin as to border on non-existent". (Appeal Brief) An extract in summary:

1. Manafort’s alleged communications were extremely limited. They took place only with a person who was not and still is not known to be a witness in the case. Indeed, that
person was not even identified in the indictment pending against Mr. Manafort at the time the government filed the bail-revocation motion. And the full extent of the alleged communications consisted of one phone call lasting less than 85 seconds, three phone calls not answered; and three brief unanswered text messages, (“‘This is paul.’”); id.

2. The contents of the 85 second call was not provided (a proffer by the one person called successfully) at the revocation hearing, Manafort thus had no opportunity to submit rebuttal evidence, rendering consideration of the call’s alleged contents improper. Moreover, the statements the government represented Mr. Manafort made to the single individual were nonsubstantive: Mr. Manafort merely identified himself and stated that he wanted to talk to the guy about the Hapsburg Group to provide an update and give him a “heads-up.”

3. None of those contacts come anywhere close to an “attempt to influence, delay, or prevent the testimony of any person.” 18 U.S.C. §1512(b)(1); Neither Mr. Manafort nor an intermediate asked this person, or anyone else, to do anything; no allusion to potential questions, false statements etc. Manafort made only one accurate statement of fact, that he "worked in Europe". The alleged communications provide the flimsiest of evidence of alleged obstruction.

"Independently, the alleged evidence of obstruction is so thin that it cannot reasonably support the determination that no set of conditions could ensure Mr. Manafort’s appearance and the safety of the community. Whatever else might be said of the solitary phrase he communicated, it is not witness tampering. "

<snipped to comply with 5000 characters>

Manafort is beginning to look like the first of Mueller's political prisoners - sad.
https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Manafort-Brief.pdf

That was a good post.....

However, your only source document appears to be the pleadings for the defense. If you have read many pleadings you will know that any lawyer worth his salt can put together a credible and persuasive argument on behalf of their client. On a stand alone basis, a decent pleading is compelling. If you just indulge in one side of the story, you will be convinced your side is right, no matter how wrong they may be. It seems you only sourced the pleadings of the defense without reading the pleadings of the prosecution. It has convinced you only because his lawyers are good. But, a single pleading is but one side of the story. The judge, fortunately, heard both sides of the story and made his decision after hearing the best arguments from BOTH sides. If you have not done that, you are not in a position to question the judge.

I live with the default belief, absent compelling evidence to the contrary, that the judge well heard both sides of this story and did the right thing. If you have the pleadings of the prosecution, post them. I will read them both.
 
Last edited:
Irrelevant to the simple fact that he vioated bail conditions.

This seems to really have some people tied up in knots as a concept.

Bummer.

He might have violated bail conditions. No one in the general public has seen the actual evidence.
 
He might have violated bail conditions. No one in the general public has seen the actual evidence.

So you're saying the prosecution and the judge are dishonest and conspiring against him.

Seems about right for you.
 
However, solitary confinement is a civil rights violation, in this particular case. The use of solitary confinement is a political decision, not a legal decision.

OK. I can see your point there. I will plead ignorance as to why he is in solitary confinement, but if its to force him to flip, I probably am on your side of the fence on this one. We should not be "torturing" him. If its for his safety, that works into a grey area unless he is in agreement with it.
 
OK. I can see your point there. I will plead ignorance as to why he is in solitary confinement, but if its to force him to flip, I probably am on your side of the fence on this one. We should not be "torturing" him. If its for his safety, that works into a grey area unless he is in agreement with it.

That would make it torture; an outright crime.
 
So you're saying the prosecution and the judge are dishonest and conspiring against him.

Seems about right for you.

That's exactly what I'm saying.
 
However, solitary confinement is a civil rights violation, in this particular case. The use of solitary confinement is a political decision, not a legal decision.


He’s separated from gen pop for his protection.
 
Nothing makes him special.
I am sure if you were to ask hm he would claim to be special.

However, millions of prisoners are not charged with very complex white collar process crimes, spanning many years, and almost all charged are given bail unless they are serious flight risks.
He was also given that till he ****ed it up because he thinks he is special.

Manafort is not asking for unconditional release, but enough supervised release to mount a full defense.
He should not have messed up his bail then.
 
Solitary confinement isn't used for protective custody.

Oh yes it certainly can be used for that purpose and is probably prudent if the facility he is in is not a maximum security facility. The Feds aren't going to underestimate the ability of Russian or any other criminal elements that he may have been involved with who might prefer Manafort to be silenced permanently to reach out and touch him there. Not to mention any other sort of unsavory characters or fame seekers that may be among the general population that may be inclined to take a whack at him just because they can.
 
Oh yes it certainly can be used for that purpose and is probably prudent if the facility he is in is not a maximum security facility. The Feds aren't going to underestimate the ability of Russian or any other criminal elements that he may have been involved with who might prefer Manafort to be silenced permanently to reach out touch him there. Not to mention any other sort of unsavory characters or fame seekers that may be among the general population that may be inclined to take a whack at him.

You're wrong. PC units aren't solitary confinement.

The notion that Manafort is being held in solitary for his own safety is pure bull****.
 
Trump can lie all he wants but the fact remains....Manafort was his campaign manager and doing Putin's bidding.

Lol...you still believe that? That's funny.
 
You're wrong. PC units aren't solitary confinement.

The notion that Manafort is being held in solitary for his own safety is pure bull****.

As usual you are out of touch of reality. Manafort is not like any other prisoner there. He has some very powerful potential enemies. The federal government has a duty to take every reasonable precaution that the circumstances dictate them to take to provide for Mr Manafort's safety while he is in their custody awaiting trial. The period just before start of a trial is usually the most dangerous period of all.
 
Actually Manafort's attorney's seem to be correct; it is difficult to mount a fully effective defense when you are let out of your cell one hour a day and/or are likely confined in handcuffs to a table in a room. In any case as complex as Manafort's, I am sure there are 10s of thousands of pages documentation to be read and discussed, research leads to be hashed out, and databases and legal cases (e.g. lexis) to be examined with the clients input. On the outside a client might spend entire days, mornings, or afternoons with legal staff and research assistants going through material and strategizing.

Hopefully the appeals court will approve the request for periodic release under limited conditions.

He was under house arrest and had all the time in the world to do that.
He then decided to use those days, mornings, or afternoons tampering with witnesses instead of working with research assistants.

Strange, you don't seem to demand this sort of freedom of everyday criminals. The accused MS-13 murders ya boy's always screeching about. Let them out to work on legal strategies?

But nice job falling for the exact propaganda image that Manafort's attorney is feeding you. "confined in handcuffs to a table in a room" :lamo

He's in a VIP room, not some rotting hole with no human interaction.
 
Solitary confinement isn't used for protective custody.

You're picturing an 8x8 stone box where a meal tray is slid through three times a day through a slot. (because that's what Manafort's lawyer wants you to picture, it furthers the "witch hunt!!" propaganda)

That's not what's happening here. He's in a VIP wing by himself.
 
You're picturing an 8x8 stone box where a meal tray is slid through three times a day through a slot. (because that's what Manafort's lawyer wants you to picture, it furthers the "witch hunt!!" propaganda)

That's not what's happening here. He's in a VIP wing by himself.

Seems like they can solve everyone's problems pretty quickly by sticking him in with the general population. He doesn't like his lonely accommodations, don't bother.
 
Yet, you can have classified information illegally on your own server, completely against the letter of the law, and have the head of the FBI working to let you off before even bothering to interviewing you. Boy, did our DOJ take a hit in the last few years.
 
Under normal circumstances, I would probably agree. But, this doesn't have anything to do with any crime Manafort committed, or might have committed. The decision to place him in solitary confinement is politically motivated and that, I have a problem with. We all should.

I understand the motivations behind Muller's aggressive approach concerning Paul Manafort, however what any other person with competent legal counsel would have done is let his team handle the defense, and obey the Judges orders so as not to give an aggressive team like Muller's any room to go after a situation such as this....Manafort handed Muller the leverage on a silver platter....

The President is distancing himself from the work Manafort did for the campaign, and in reality, Manafort was brought in to wrangle the delegates at the convention, and he did that expertly...In the end, I suspect that none of Manafort's troubles with his business will touch the President, but Manafort made a huge mistake thinking he could push the limits of his bail, and now is paying the price for it.
 
Seems like they can solve everyone's problems pretty quickly by sticking him in with the general population. He doesn't like his lonely accommodations, don't bother.

So, you want to see harm come to the man physically eh?

You'll forgive me if I think that shows more than a little unhinged thinking on your part....Who else would you like to see harmed? SoS? VP? the President himself?
 
Back
Top Bottom