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Trump to urge colleges to ignore race in admissions

zimmer said:
Editor’s corrections in red:


If you’re trying to identify the best and brightest... then yes.

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So you are against all other criteria used by colleges other than the score on the test they demand that people take - is that correct?
 
haymarket said:
So you are against all other criteria used by colleges other than the score on the test they demand that people take - is that correct?
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I’m not a supporter of affirmative action... that someone can take a place earned by another, but rejected because of his or her race or sex.
 
zimmer said:
I’m not a supporter of affirmative action... that someone can take a place earned by another, but rejected because of his or her race or sex.
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So is it just when race is considered that you object or are you against all other criteria used by colleges other than the score on the test they demand that people take?
 
AlbqOwl said:
Yes, and unnecessary prejudices die hard. A black person who has endured a lot of unfair mistreatment, harassment, bigotry from a lot of white people is almost surely going to have a chip on his/her shoulder and a strong distrust of the motives of white people. White people who have been subjected to black people who are mostly angry, hostile, threatening, resisting, etc. will likely have a hard time not seeing all black people in that light.

But just as American 'white society' got used to having black people in their schools, places of work, stores, restaurants, etc. until it felt natural and normal, not using race as a criteria for anything will eventually create a society where race becomes unimportant and the old prejudices and bigotry and distrust will gradually evaporate. Education is a good place to begin.
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Yes, education is a good place to begin. Why not start with teaching a bit about genetics. The bit that says 'races' do not actually exist. That the American delusion that two people with skin tones a couple of shades apart belong to different 'races' should be junked once and for all. This constant use of the word 'race' makes the US sound a hundred years behind the times.
 
haymarket said:
So is it just when race is considered that you object or are you against all other criteria used by colleges other than the score on the test they demand that people take?
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I disagree with sex and race being used to score bonus points.

Not too complicated. I’m for meritocracy. You?
 
zimmer said:
I disagree with sex and race being used to score bonus points.

Not too complicated. I’m for meritocracy. You?
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Perhaps you do not understand my simple question. Again, do you object to or are you against all other criteria used by colleges other than the score on the test they demand that people take?
 
haymarket said:
Perhaps you do not understand my simple question. Again, do you object to or are you against all other criteria used by colleges other than the score on the test they demand that people take?
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I’m against race and sex as a criteria. I’m for a meritocracy.

If you have another, then post it, and I’ll provide an answer.
 
zimmer said:
I’m against race and sex as a criteria. I’m for a meritocracy.

If you have another, then post it, and I’ll provide an answer.
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You still are not answering my question.

Again, do you object to or are you against all other criteria used by colleges other than the score on the test they demand that people take?
 
haymarket said:
You still are not answering my question.

Again, do you object to or are you against all other criteria used by colleges other than the score on the test they demand that people take?
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It would probably help if you specified the 'all other criteria' you are referring to. If you mean social activities a person participates in, etc., all that are components of meritocracy.

Most universities SAY that their admission criteria includes:
Secondary school achievement
Standardized tests
Essays and personal statements
Letters of recommendation
English language proficiency
Activities and special talents

And we all know they might strain pretty hard to recruit and 'qualify' the super talented high school football or basketball player, etc. more than they are going to recruit the super smart kid who scores in the high 90 percentiles on his/her SATs. But that football or basketball player has potential to bring in revenue to the university while the talented academic usually does not.

But all things considered, race or gender should no longer be a component of who is admitted and who is not.
 
haymarket said:
You still are not answering my question.

Again, do you object to or are you against all other criteria used by colleges other than the score on the test they demand that people take?
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Silly question, unless you say what criteria you have in mind.. One might say, for example, that one criterion is that only living members of the species Homo Sapiens be admitted to educational establishments - but so what?

Are you trying to lay some cunning trap or what?
 
haymarket said:
You still are not answering my question.

Again, do you object to or are you against all other criteria used by colleges other than the score on the test they demand that people take?
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I don’t know what you mean by “all other criteria”. You haven’t defined it, given an example thereof... you’ve simply thrown it out there. So... define it, so I can consider it. Whatever “it” may be.

I’ve told you... I'm for a meritocracy.

Skin color and sex deserve no bonus points.
 
AlbqOwl said:
It would probably help if you specified the 'all other criteria' you are referring to. If you mean social activities a person participates in, etc., all that are components of meritocracy.

Most universities SAY that their admission criteria includes:
Secondary school achievement
Standardized tests
Essays and personal statements
Letters of recommendation
English language proficiency
Activities and special talents

And we all know they might strain pretty hard to recruit and 'qualify' the super talented high school football or basketball player, etc. more than they are going to recruit the super smart kid who scores in the high 90 percentiles on his/her SATs. But that football or basketball player has potential to bring in revenue to the university while the talented academic usually does not.

But all things considered, race or gender should no longer be a component of who is admitted and who is not.
Click to expand...

I mean anything other than ones scores on a test or high school GPA.

It has been my regrettable experience that some on the right who oppose affirmative action do so out of a racist motivation - they simply are against African Americans getting a break. Some of those same people have no problem at all with schools considering things other than pure academic merit. But the one they laser in on is race... revealing their own motivations.
 
Sweden said:
Silly question, unless you say what criteria you have in mind.. One might say, for example, that one criterion is that only living members of the species Homo Sapiens be admitted to educational establishments - but so what?

Are you trying to lay some cunning trap or what?
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I thought I was very specific. I mean anything other than ones scores on a test or high school GPA.

It has been my regrettable experience that some on the right who oppose affirmative action do so out of a racist motivation - they simply are against African Americans getting a break. Some of those same people have no problem at all with schools considering things other than pure academic merit. But the one they laser in on is race... revealing their own motivations.
 
zimmer said:
I don’t know what you mean by “all other criteria”. You haven’t defined it, given an example thereof... you’ve simply thrown it out there. So... define it, so I can consider it. Whatever “it” may be.

I’ve told you... I'm for a meritocracy.

Skin color and sex deserve no bonus points.
Click to expand...

But do you give points for other things besides test scores?

Or is RACE the big bugaboo with you because it involves helping African Americans or SEX because it involves helping women?
 
haymarket said:
I mean anything other than ones scores on a test or high school GPA.

It has been my regrettable experience that some on the right who oppose affirmative action do so out of a racist motivation - they simply are against African Americans getting a break. Some of those same people have no problem at all with schools considering things other than pure academic merit. But the one they laser in on is race... revealing their own motivations.
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I’m for race and sex blind applications.

Just as orchestra’s use blind auditions for members. That way there is no prejudice one way or another.
 
zimmer said:
I’m for race and sex blind applications.

Just as orchestra’s use blind auditions for members. That way there is no prejudice one way or another.
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Are you against legacy admissions also?

Should people with low test scores and poor academics get admitted for physical or athletic or talent skills?

What about someone with money buying admission for a child or relative?
 
zimmer said:
Such as?
Once again, you fail to define anything.
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Its pretty specific - ANYTHING other than academic merit as reflected in a test score or high school GPA? ANYTHING takes in everything else.
 
zimmer said:
Very good.
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So, will they also stop kids from getting in based on who their parents are?

Trump got in because his daddy was rich. Bush got in because daddy was rich. Countless other kids get in because of who their parents are, and not the merits of their grades
 
Puigb said:
Oh the irony of someone who voted for Donald Trump typing this.
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It seems every thing a conservative says and believes is some hypocritical tripe. Lack of empathy and hypocrisy, the hallmarks of characteristics of people who are conservatives. I've got mine, the hell with everybody else, but of course, if what is mine is being threatened , the government better now do something to help me
 
haymarket said:
I mean anything other than ones scores on a test or high school GPA.

It has been my regrettable experience that some on the right who oppose affirmative action do so out of a racist motivation - they simply are against African Americans getting a break. Some of those same people have no problem at all with schools considering things other than pure academic merit. But the one they laser in on is race... revealing their own motivations.
Click to expand...

But is it possible that your experience arises out of your own prejudices against the right? You automatically assume that their objection to affirmative action is motivated by race or some concept of not wanting African Americans to get a break? And that your assumption is blatantly incorrect and unfair when applied to the vast majority of us who think affirmative action has long outlived its usefulness?

I look to a dear friend who happened to be African American. She was valedictorian of her high school, president of the senior class, and scored in the high 90 percentiles on her SATs and would like to believe that was what got her into the prestigious university she attended rather than affirmative action.

But despite her excelling at most things she tackled in life and becoming an expert in her field, she was always aware of the impression of many of her coworkers/colleagues that she was perceived as the 'token black', the 'affirmative action' employee, and that she received awards and promotions because she was black rather than that she merited them. She resented how often she was drafted to represent black people in formal discussion groups, on panels, etc. (She would like to have been recruited for her expertise on various subjects.)

John McWhorter PhD once wrote a provocative and insightful essay on "White Privilege." IMO the most poignant paragraph in that essay was this one:
. . .To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can underperform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else. . .​
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-privilege-of-checking-white-privilege

And that brings us back to me and I believe many millions of others of us representing all the various races, who want a society that rates and evaluates people on their character, accomplishments, merits instead of identifying them as 'black', or 'gay' or 'a woman' or whatever criteria is used that infers they are 'different' or apart from the mainstream.
 
AlbqOwl said:
But is it possible that your experience arises out of your own prejudices against the right? You automatically assume that their objection to affirmative action is motivated by race or some concept of not wanting African Americans to get a break? And that your assumption is blatantly incorrect and unfair when applied to the vast majority of us who think affirmative action has long outlived its usefulness?

I look to a dear friend who happened to be African American. She was valedictorian of her high school, president of the senior class, and scored in the high 90 percentiles on her SATs and would like to believe that was what got her into the prestigious university she attended rather than affirmative action.

But despite her excelling at most things she tackled in life and becoming an expert in her field, she was always aware of the impression of many of her coworkers/colleagues that she was perceived as the 'token black', the 'affirmative action' employee, and that she received awards and promotions because she was black rather than that she merited them. She resented how often she was drafted to represent black people in formal discussion groups, on panels, etc. (She would like to have been recruited for her expertise on various subjects.)

John McWhorter PhD once wrote a provocative and insightful essay on "White Privilege." IMO the most poignant paragraph in that essay was this one:
. . .To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can underperform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else. . .​
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-privilege-of-checking-white-privilege

And that brings us back to me and I believe many millions of others of us representing all the various races, who want a society that rates and evaluates people on their character, accomplishments, merits instead of identifying them as 'black', or 'gay' or 'a woman' or whatever criteria is used that infers they are 'different' or apart from the mainstream.
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My experience is based on more than forty years of observation including time here seeing right wingers rail from the pit of their soul against helping African Americans in admissions but defending legacy admissions and simply buying admission into a university.

I can support doing away with AA - all forms of it including legacy admissions and anything other than pure academic measurement. But far too many who rant and rail against AA simply focus on race and its all about prejudice pure and simple.

Take athletes. I have long favored no such thing as admitting athletes to college to play a sport when they could not otherwise get in on their own academic qualifications. Let everyone including the best high school ball player in the nation submit an application to school along with everybody else and let him get in based on his academic qualification. Then, when he is a student, he can make the team and get his full ride scholarship. Heck- change the rules to pay him for his work as an athlete and that is fine with me also.
 
haymarket said:
My experience is based on more than forty years of observation including time here seeing right wingers rail from the pit of their soul against helping African Americans in admissions but defending legacy admissions and simply buying admission into a university.

I can support doing away with AA - all forms of it including legacy admissions and anything other than pure academic measurement. But far too many who rant and rail against AA simply focus on race and its all about prejudice pure and simple.

Take athletes. I have long favored no such thing as admitting athletes to college to play a sport when they could not otherwise get in on their own academic qualifications. Let everyone including the best high school ball player in the nation submit an application to school along with everybody else and let him get in based on his academic qualification. Then, when he is a student, he can make the team and get his full ride scholarship. Heck- change the rules to pay him for his work as an athlete and that is fine with me also.
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You can't get into the University of Texas or Texas A&M unless you graduate in the top 7 and 10 percent of your high school class, or if you score a 30 on the ACT. (A&M about to go to to 8 percent.)

It makes for diverse freshman classes, but it changes quite a bit by the junior year.

It's a good system for the most part because race isn't the driving factor on anything.

Of course, liberals here still call it discriminatory.
 
Erod said:
You can't get into the University of Texas or Texas A&M unless you graduate in the top 7 and 10 percent of your high school class, or if you score a 30 on the ACT. (A&M about to go to to 8 percent.)

It makes for diverse freshman classes, but it changes quite a bit by the junior year.

It's a good system for the most part because race isn't the driving factor on anything.

Of course, liberals here still call it discriminatory.
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Do they have legacy admissions?

What about athletic or talent admissions?
 
zimmer said:
I’m for race and sex blind applications.

Just as orchestra’s use blind auditions for members. That way there is no prejudice one way or another.
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x1000 this
 
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