• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

US farmers, desperate for help, increasingly turn to Mexico

TU Curmudgeon

TU Curmudgeon

B.A. (Sarc), LLb. (Lex Sarcasus), PhD (Sarc.)
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 7, 2018
Messages
62,513
Reaction score
19,312
Location
Lower Mainland of BC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
From The Christian Science Monitor


US farmers, desperate for help, increasingly turn to Mexico
​

he apple trees were heavy with fruit, and the rows and rows of tomatoes, squash, and hot peppers were ripe for picking. But in the end, Gary and Patty Bartley, prizewinning farmers in western Michigan, had to leave $200,000 to $300,000 worth of their crops to rot in their fields last year.

They couldn’t find enough people to pick everything.


That was not for lack of trying. They had urged their domestic migrant workers to return, but only 12 did – about a third of the crew size they needed. The Bartleys placed ads in papers out of state and advertised all season with the Michigan state workforce development agency. Not a single person applied.


So this year they did something their lawyer had told them they should never do: enroll in an expensive and cumbersome visa program known as H-2A to bring up workers from Mexico.

COMMENT:-

Where are all those eager American workers whose jobs have been stolen by foreigners?

Check the bottom of the article to see what sort of wages are being paid.​
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From The Christian Science Monitor


US farmers, desperate for help, increasingly turn to Mexico
​

he apple trees were heavy with fruit, and the rows and rows of tomatoes, squash, and hot peppers were ripe for picking. But in the end, Gary and Patty Bartley, prizewinning farmers in western Michigan, had to leave $200,000 to $300,000 worth of their crops to rot in their fields last year.

They couldn’t find enough people to pick everything.


That was not for lack of trying. They had urged their domestic migrant workers to return, but only 12 did – about a third of the crew size they needed. The Bartleys placed ads in papers out of state and advertised all season with the Michigan state workforce development agency. Not a single person applied.


So this year they did something their lawyer had told them they should never do: enroll in an expensive and cumbersome visa program known as H-2A to bring up workers from Mexico.

COMMENT:-

Where are all those eager American workers whose jobs have been stolen by foreigners?

Check the bottom of the article to see what sort of wages are being paid.​
Click to expand...

Psst...you won't find them until you start charging $10 per apple, to cover the wage overhead... ;)
 
They'd have to start offering wages that were high enough to attract American workers.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From The Christian Science Monitor


US farmers, desperate for help, increasingly turn to Mexico
​

he apple trees were heavy with fruit, and the rows and rows of tomatoes, squash, and hot peppers were ripe for picking. But in the end, Gary and Patty Bartley, prizewinning farmers in western Michigan, had to leave $200,000 to $300,000 worth of their crops to rot in their fields last year.

They couldn’t find enough people to pick everything.


That was not for lack of trying. They had urged their domestic migrant workers to return, but only 12 did – about a third of the crew size they needed. The Bartleys placed ads in papers out of state and advertised all season with the Michigan state workforce development agency. Not a single person applied.


So this year they did something their lawyer had told them they should never do: enroll in an expensive and cumbersome visa program known as H-2A to bring up workers from Mexico.

COMMENT:-

Where are all those eager American workers whose jobs have been stolen by foreigners?

Check the bottom of the article to see what sort of wages are being paid.​
Click to expand...

Cut the welfare and the unemployment insurance extensions if they want American workers. They brought their people in legal so there is no problem. You have a point here?
 
Napoleon said:
That’s one way to kill the American farmer.
Click to expand...

Well I mean that...or leave 300,000 on the vines. I suppose it's an equation to figure out which one is more cost effective.
 
So am I reading that right? They used to use illegal aliens and their lawyer suggested they start obeying the law.?.?
 
Ikari said:
Well I mean that...or leave 300,000 on the vines. I suppose it's an equation to figure out which one is more cost effective.
Click to expand...

They also have to balance the massive debt incurred to live and keep the farm running between seasons. So $300,000 in produce could be more of a liability than a boon if harvesting it isn’t cheap.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Cut the welfare and the unemployment insurance extensions if they want American workers.
Click to expand...

That might work. Of course those "American workers" would have to actually get to where the work was - wouldn't they?

PirateMk1 said:
They brought their people in legal so there is no problem. You have a point here?
Click to expand...

Yep. The point is that there are NOT sufficient workers available inside the United States of America.
 
NoParty said:
So am I reading that right? They used to use illegal aliens and their lawyer suggested they start obeying the law.?.?
Click to expand...

Nope, they used to use "migrant workers" who were already in the country and now they are having to "import" workers - and do so under much stricter financial constraints than they would have been otherwise.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
How much over $20.00 per hour should they be paying?
Click to expand...

I don't know, enough to attract enough workers so that they don't have to leave as much produce on the vines. They'll have to run the math. I didn't see in the article that they had been offering 20 bucks an hour, but apparently they're wiling to go through a very expensive program to pull workers up for harvest. That may be cheaper than offering wages necessary to hire Americans, but apparently they hadn't offered enough to grab workers in the first place since the article states they got no one to apply.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From The Christian Science Monitor


US farmers, desperate for help, increasingly turn to Mexico
​

he apple trees were heavy with fruit, and the rows and rows of tomatoes, squash, and hot peppers were ripe for picking. But in the end, Gary and Patty Bartley, prizewinning farmers in western Michigan, had to leave $200,000 to $300,000 worth of their crops to rot in their fields last year.

They couldn’t find enough people to pick everything.


That was not for lack of trying. They had urged their domestic migrant workers to return, but only 12 did – about a third of the crew size they needed. The Bartleys placed ads in papers out of state and advertised all season with the Michigan state workforce development agency. Not a single person applied.


So this year they did something their lawyer had told them they should never do: enroll in an expensive and cumbersome visa program known as H-2A to bring up workers from Mexico.

COMMENT:-

Where are all those eager American workers whose jobs have been stolen by foreigners?

Check the bottom of the article to see what sort of wages are being paid.​
Click to expand...

Those americans are probably looking for full time work and a less transient lifestyle.

It is not just the money that is the problem here.
Fruit picking is a seasonal job which lasts less than a few months and then your out of a job.

The wages suggested here give a pretence of a steady income which is never true in this kind of work. You cannot pick apples in the rain for instance, they bruise and cannot be sold. Get two or three days of steady down pour which is most likely to occur during the season and that is a few days of no work and no wages. As well the picking itself is not a steady job. It fluxuates according to variety, the colour and the ripeness. So some days a picker can get the bonus an other days they barely manage to fill a bin.

Your H-2A programme means that employers can no longer exploit the workers with bad wages and poor living conditions. They actually have to pay a decent wage. And the argument given here by some is that farmers cannot afford to. Which basically means your country is a ****ing joke. Dependent still on slavery to support its capitalist dream.

If you want to eat an apple in america then stop whinging about the farmer who wants to employ slaves for a bigger profit.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Nope, they used to use "migrant workers" who were already in the country and now they are having to "import" workers - and do so under much stricter financial constraints than they would have been otherwise.
Click to expand...
Ahh, then I’d revert to one of the others’ comment, eliminate welfare and buy them bus tickets to the workplace.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Didn't read all the way down to the end of the article, did you.
Click to expand...

Yes, sure I did. $13-$20 an hour sounds pretty good...until you remember that it's seasonal work...in areas that generally don't have a lot of options for off season work...

So, if the season lasts a third of the year, pay me three times as much, and maybe I'll pick your veggies. Gotta live, after all...
 
Cheap food and an economic system artificially suppressed are no reason to allow people into the country legally or illegally, esp. considering the abuses and injustices they are often subjected to.

The system here needs to be changed to better balance things economically...and yes, there will be pain points until it does rebalance. Change without some sacrifices is rare.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From The Christian Science Monitor


US farmers, desperate for help, increasingly turn to Mexico
​

he apple trees were heavy with fruit, and the rows and rows of tomatoes, squash, and hot peppers were ripe for picking. But in the end, Gary and Patty Bartley, prizewinning farmers in western Michigan, had to leave $200,000 to $300,000 worth of their crops to rot in their fields last year.

They couldn’t find enough people to pick everything.


That was not for lack of trying. They had urged their domestic migrant workers to return, but only 12 did – about a third of the crew size they needed. The Bartleys placed ads in papers out of state and advertised all season with the Michigan state workforce development agency. Not a single person applied.


So this year they did something their lawyer had told them they should never do: enroll in an expensive and cumbersome visa program known as H-2A to bring up workers from Mexico.

COMMENT:-

Where are all those eager American workers whose jobs have been stolen by foreigners?

Check the bottom of the article to see what sort of wages are being paid.​
Click to expand...

I suggest Gary and Patty Bartley, prizewinning farmers in western Michigan switch to farming soybeans or corn or cotton, or peanuts, or pecans. Oops! Maybe not. Those farmers are fixing to lose their butts, as well. I have an idea! Maybe Gary and Patty Bartley, prizewinning farmers in western Michigan should start growing aluminum. I hear there is going to be a market for it in the US.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From The Christian Science Monitor


US farmers, desperate for help, increasingly turn to Mexico
​

he apple trees were heavy with fruit, and the rows and rows of tomatoes, squash, and hot peppers were ripe for picking. But in the end, Gary and Patty Bartley, prizewinning farmers in western Michigan, had to leave $200,000 to $300,000 worth of their crops to rot in their fields last year.

They couldn’t find enough people to pick everything.


That was not for lack of trying. They had urged their domestic migrant workers to return, but only 12 did – about a third of the crew size they needed. The Bartleys placed ads in papers out of state and advertised all season with the Michigan state workforce development agency. Not a single person applied.


So this year they did something their lawyer had told them they should never do: enroll in an expensive and cumbersome visa program known as H-2A to bring up workers from Mexico.

COMMENT:-

Where are all those eager American workers whose jobs have been stolen by foreigners?

Check the bottom of the article to see what sort of wages are being paid.​
Click to expand...

So what do you suggest?
 
So this year they did something their lawyer had told them they should never do: enroll in an expensive and cumbersome visa program known as H-2A to bring up workers from Mexico.
Click to expand...
Whoa!

So I'm supposed to empathize with their plight to obey the law, like the rest of us do?

What the hey. Their previous use of illegal labor is exactly the cause of the problem! Sorry, no love from me here ...
 
Chomsky said:
Whoa!

So I'm supposed to empathize with their plight to obey the law, like the rest of us do?

What the hey. Their previous use of illegal labor is exactly the cause of the problem! Sorry, no love from me here ...
Click to expand...


I’m going to guess that Mrs. Chomsky goes to the market! :2razz:
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From The Christian Science Monitor


US farmers, desperate for help, increasingly turn to Mexico
​

he apple trees were heavy with fruit, and the rows and rows of tomatoes, squash, and hot peppers were ripe for picking. But in the end, Gary and Patty Bartley, prizewinning farmers in western Michigan, had to leave $200,000 to $300,000 worth of their crops to rot in their fields last year.

They couldn’t find enough people to pick everything.


That was not for lack of trying. They had urged their domestic migrant workers to return, but only 12 did – about a third of the crew size they needed. The Bartleys placed ads in papers out of state and advertised all season with the Michigan state workforce development agency. Not a single person applied.


So this year they did something their lawyer had told them they should never do: enroll in an expensive and cumbersome visa program known as H-2A to bring up workers from Mexico.

COMMENT:-

Where are all those eager American workers whose jobs have been stolen by foreigners?

Check the bottom of the article to see what sort of wages are being paid.​
Click to expand...

Not only that the suicide rate for American farmers, especially those in rural areas, is soaring.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-farmers-rising-suicide-rates-plummeting-incomes/
"Think about trying to live today on the income you had 15 years ago." That's how agriculture expert Chris Hurt describes the plight facing U.S. farmers today.

The unequal economy that's emerged over the past decade, combined with patchy access to health care in rural areas, have had a severe impact on the people growing America's food. Recent data shows just how much. Farmers are dying by suicide at a higher rate than any other occupational group, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

The suicide rate in the field of farming, fishing and forestry is 84.5 per 100,000 people -- more than five times that of the population as a whole. That's even as the nation overall has seen an increase in suicide rates over the last 30 years.

The CDC study comes with a few caveats. It looked at workers over 17 different states, but it left out some major agricultural states, like Iowa. And the occupational category that includes these workers includes small numbers of workers from related occupational groups, like fishing and forestry. (However, agricultural workers make up the vast majority of the "farming, fishing and forestry" occupational group.)

However, the figures in the CDC study mirror other recent findings. Rates of suicide have risen fastest, and are highest, in rural areas, the CDC found in a different study released earlier this month. Other countries have seen this issue, too -- including India, where 60,000 farmer suicides have been linked to climate change.

In the U.S., several longtime farm advocates say today's crisis mirrors one that happened in the 1980s, when many U.S. farmers struggled economically, with an accompanying spike in farmer suicides.
Click to expand...
 
Chomsky said:
Whoa!

So I'm supposed to empathize with their plight to obey the law, like the rest of us do?

What the hey. Their previous use of illegal labor is exactly the cause of the problem! Sorry, no love from me here ...
Click to expand...
Are you sure you read the article?

The problem is that farmers are having trouble finding workers. How did their previous use of illegal labor cause the problem of them not being able to find workers now?
 
Fletch said:
So what do you suggest?
Click to expand...

Well, first of all, they should be trying to expand and streamline both legal immigration and guest visa programs. Instead, Trump wants them to further restrict both of those avenues.



Without either enough people legally here or illegally here, a lot of farmers will fail. I suppose Trump could just impose massive tariffs on all imported produce so that farmers can actually sell their apples for $5/lb, but then that would be the dumbest possible route he could take. I remember reading multiple articles like this years ago when various states tried big illegal-sweeping moves. Crops just rotted. Americans don't want to do that work for any wage the farmer can afford to pay and still actually be able to compete with imported produce.

Oh, great, did I just foresee the future?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom