Does the Supreme Court have a double standard on religion?

MSgt said:

Well, case in point: You can't even define why America is the "greatest country on Earth" because you never actually thought beyond the rhetoric of false patriotism.

However, I can make the argument. I can illustrate America's historical mission and its necessity in a world of crap. I can display why the U.S. Constitution is one of the most influential document's on the planet (it has inspired many others in the world). I can explain how America's efforts to define equality, justice, and liberty have been exclamation marks in the history of mankind. I can explain why America is a force for good, despite our knack for betraying our own rhetoric at times.

But I can also explain why anti-Americanism in the world exists beyond the shallow. I can present it as both through a theme of jealousy and a theme of genuine disappointment. I can display the Declaration and the Constitution as documents that define us, not as what we are, but what we are still trying to be.

I would write this up in such a manner in which even you would swoon. But I suspect that you would take all the parts that make you feel good, and dismiss the parts that make you feel uncomfortable. Somebody who loves this country, respects it, and has faith in, doesn't pretend that perfection defines it in such a way that they deny its short, but very rich history.

But let me take a guess at why you think America is the greatest country on Earth. Cuz....freedom?

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You make a claim I can't do something and why it is so. Nullifying preemptively any chance I would have to rebut your claim.

As we've never engaged in the discussion, you cannot make that claim, but you did.

No, now I'm just going to walk away from this conversation, as my Chief used to say, never get into a petty discussion with a REMF, they're loud, angry and not worth the effort.

Toodles.

PS I could quite easily answer the question, but why waste the time with someone so openly rude? Apologize for your rudeness and I will answer you.

Renae said:

You make a claim I can't do something and why it is so. Nullifying preemptively any chance I would have to rebut your claim.

As we've never engaged in the discussion, you cannot make that claim, but you did.

No, now I'm just going to walk away from this conversation, as my Chief used to say, never get into a petty discussion with a REMF, they're loud, angry and not worth the effort.

Toodles.

PS I could quite easily answer the question, but why waste the time with someone so openly rude? Apologize for your rudeness and I will answer you.

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I nullify nothing. You are free to write as you please. I simply declare that your ideas on why "America is the greatest" exists within a small ideological right-wing framework that doesn't do it justice and actually insults it.

And rude? Perhaps. Arrogant? Better. Handsome? Absolutely. But let's not pretend that your views aren't defined by a stereotype in which FOX News caters to. Your posts are clear.

MSgt said:

I nullify nothing. You are free to write as you please. I simply declare that your ideas on why "America is the greatest" exists within a small ideological right-wing framework that doesn't do it justice and actually insults it.

And rude? Perhaps. Arrogant? Better. Handsome? Absolutely. But let's not pretend that your views aren't defined by a stereotype in which FOX News caters to. Your posts are clear.

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You have no ideas what my views are, you throw out that foxnews quip in hopes of denigrating my positions by casting anything I would say as illegitimate before it is said.

But just to prove how woefully unprepared you are for any real discussion:

America is the greatest nation on earth, not because of our military power, substantial as it is. Not because of "freedom" or other words, but because America has stood for liberty, for hope and for letting the people decide their future without falling to the traps that historically democracies did. Our Representative Republic neatly balanced the will of the people against the baser instincts of human nature. The balancing act of three equal branches allowed for and checked power, growth and stability.

While there have been mistakes along the way, horrors, tragedies and failures there has been great hope and triumph as well.

America, by virtue of being away from the World Wars of the 20th century and economically blessed with natural resources helped usher in the greatest rise in standard of living humans have ever known.

It is our unique government, flawed as it has been, our history and our determination that makes America so great, and why so many people are desperate to get here. No where else can you rise so high as America from the lowest rungs to the highest echelons of human existence, just based on effort and will.

Politics doesn't make us great, it hurts us in the end. The fall of Rome is a history all Americans need to heed, for they too were so busy navel gazing they didn't see the fall coming. We're spoiled by our bounty.


Now, how about you back off your bs accusations and your garbage pronouncements, you don't know me. But I got you figured out. I've called you out repeatedly and you slithered away, that tells me all the fakery I suspect about you is spot on.

Renae said:

You make a claim I can't do something and why it is so. Nullifying preemptively any chance I would have to rebut your claim.

As we've never engaged in the discussion, you cannot make that claim, but you did.

No, now I'm just going to walk away from this conversation, as my Chief used to say, never get into a petty discussion with a REMF, they're loud, angry and not worth the effort.

Toodles.

PS I could quite easily answer the question, but why waste the time with someone so openly rude? Apologize for your rudeness and I will answer you.

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Figures that you would leave. When the going gets tough. The feckless run and hide.

Atomic Kid said:

Figures that you would leave. When the going gets tough. The feckless run and hide.

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Someone should probably read the whole thread before making foolish comments...

Renae said:

Someone should probably read the whole thread before making foolish comments...

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I did read it and I can clearly see who spineless fool is here.

Thoreau72 said:

You raise an excellent point, but I think the answer to the thread question is yes, the court does show a double standard.

Just as it favors the status quo in so many policy issues, it also favors the status quo regarding superiority for Christians.

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It's not just the court. There is special treatment for religion across the country. If the local church next door wants to ring their stupid call to Jesus bell twelve times a day, you can't say ****. If the kid next door turns his stereo up too loud once, you can. There are many examples.

This country, to my dismay, has always had theocratic tendencies. What they did to the pledge and the motto in the fifties was not the beginning but it was certainly a shameless disregard for the first amendment by the people who claim to cherish it most. Their hypocrisy lives on today and, too often, goes unopposed.

There is nothing special about Christianity. The only reason it is not as violent as Islam, between sects, is that it is based in secular nations. If the right wing ever succeeds in destroying constitutional protections FROM religion, we will become like Iraq in no time. We have the weapons and we have the fanaticism. All that's left is for the government to be made impotent to oppose them or, worse, complicit in their fantasies.

Atomic Kid said:

I did read it and I can clearly see who spineless fool is here.

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There is no need for insults, if you can't debate me, just say nothing.

Rickeroo said:

Article:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/26/poli...have-a-double-standard-on-religion/index.html

It's fascinating to watch how the press shapes the Islam thing. "Islam" is not a visual identifier, nor is it the cause of people's concern. Otherwise there would be reports in the news about rednecks yelling at Indonesians in restaurants to stop being terrorists. The visual identifier. the part that sets people off, is the ethnic "Arabness" of a person. This is why Sikhs are mistaken for "Muslims". Important distinction: They aren't being mistaken for Muslims, they are being mistaken for Arabs.

Arabs are associated with terrorism. Ever see a picture of an Indonesian? They are just as Islamic as an Arab, but they produce absolutely no concern in the American mind. Why? Is is ethncity, not religion.

So whenever you see "Muslim" or "Islam" in the press, just replace it with "Arab" or "practicing Arab culture" and it will far more accurately portray what's going on.

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Clearly Mr Roberts court is applying a double standard where religious freedom is concerned and Ms Sotomayor's dissent clearly addresses that double standard quite succinctly. In her dissent she cites the court’s recent decision in Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd v. Colorado Civil Rights Comm’n. In that case the majority’s decision depended in large part on its judgment that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission acted unconstitutionally by disparaging the religion of the cake shop’s owners.

"“Unlike in Masterpiece, where the majority considered the state commissioners’ statements about religion to be persuasive evidence of unconstitutional government, the majority here completely sets aside the President’s charged statements about Muslims as irrelevant,....That holding erodes the foundational principles of religious tolerance that the Court elsewhere has so emphatically protected, and it tells members of minority religions in our country ‘that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community.’”

Renae said:

There is no need for insults, if you can't debate me, just say nothing.

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Hey you cast the first stone by calling my post "foolish" and I'm just casting back at you and if you can't handle that feel free to runaway to safety again.

Atomic Kid said:

Hey you cast the first stone by calling my post "foolish" and just casting back at you and if you can't handle that feel free to runaway to safety again.

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I said your words, not you were foolish, which they were. You need to stop posting and rethink your life. Come back when you're less... triggered.

Renae said:

America is a terrible horrible racist country full of bad people and the world should hate us and despise us until we turn over our military to the UN, our economy to a full renewable/AGW Safe economy, dismantle the Military Industrial Complex and move most white males from any position of power. The NRA should be labeled a terrorist organization and the SCOTUS should be disbanded and reformed under UN oversight picking people who see the world and America's place in the proper context. Single payer should be enacted tomorrow with a top end tax rate as high as is needed to support it.

Then we'll be a good country.

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And not even then.

zimmer said:

And not even then.

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I forgot to ban guns... damn it, I make a bad progressive.

Atomic Kid said:

Clearly Mr Roberts court is applying a double standard where religious freedom is concerned and Ms Sotomayor's dissent clearly addresses that double standard quite succinctly. In her dissent she cites the court’s recent decision in Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd v. Colorado Civil Rights Comm’n. In that case the majority’s decision depended in large part on its judgment that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission acted unconstitutionally by disparaging the religion of the cake shop’s owners.

"“Unlike in Masterpiece, where the majority considered the state commissioners’ statements about religion to be persuasive evidence of unconstitutional government, the majority here completely sets aside the President’s charged statements about Muslims as irrelevant,....That holding erodes the foundational principles of religious tolerance that the Court elsewhere has so emphatically protected, and it tells members of minority religions in our country ‘that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community.’”

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This is where the case went awry. The plaintiffs, and Sotomayor, concentrated on the religion of the banned countries. Trump's "Muslim ban" of "Muslim majority countries" still allows 92% of the world's Muslims unfettered access to the US. If it were an Arab ban, the case may have had a better chance based on the ethnicity of the banned countries, as the Arab world would have been harder hit with the ban. Even then, people would be wondering why Egypt and Saudi Arabia weren't on the list, despite being very Arab.

Indeed, I think talking about Muslims, which is what Trump, the SC and everyone talks about, really doesn't get to the heart of the matter. Not that all Muslims are Arabs, but after all it's Arabs we are really talking about here.

Rickeroo said:

This is where the case went awry. The plaintiffs, and Sotomayor, concentrated on the religion of the banned countries. Trump's "Muslim ban" of "Muslim majority countries" still allows 92% of the world's Muslims unfettered access to the US. If it were an Arab ban, the case may have had a better chance based on the ethnicity of the banned countries, as the Arab world would have been harder hit with the ban. Even then, people would be wondering why Egypt and Saudi Arabia weren't on the list, despite being very Arab.

Indeed, I think talking about Muslims, which is what Trump, the SC and everyone talks about, really doesn't get to the heart of the matter. Not that all Muslims are Arabs, but after all it's Arabs we are really talking about here.

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It's Muslims that we are really talking about here. The court can't reasonably justify holding one government official accountable for his or her public comments on a religion and not the other without appearing to be duplicitous and biased in it's opinion. Mr Trump had publicly described his travel ban before and after becoming President as being a "Muslim ban". Interestingly of course what seems to distinguish one Arab country from another Arab country from being placed on the his list is whether he has any established Trump business interests in the Arab country in question.

Rickeroo said:

Article:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/26/poli...have-a-double-standard-on-religion/index.html

It's fascinating to watch how the press shapes the Islam thing. "Islam" is not a visual identifier, nor is it the cause of people's concern. Otherwise there would be reports in the news about rednecks yelling at Indonesians in restaurants to stop being terrorists. The visual identifier. the part that sets people off, is the ethnic "Arabness" of a person. This is why Sikhs are mistaken for "Muslims". Important distinction: They aren't being mistaken for Muslims, they are being mistaken for Arabs.

Arabs are associated with terrorism. Ever see a picture of an Indonesian? They are just as Islamic as an Arab, but they produce absolutely no concern in the American mind. Why? Is is ethncity, not religion.

So whenever you see "Muslim" or "Islam" in the press, just replace it with "Arab" or "practicing Arab culture" and it will far more accurately portray what's going on.

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This is exactly why Trump's travel ban was not aimed at Muslims, it was aimed at terrorist countries.

Atomic Kid said:

It's Muslims that we are really talking about here. The court can't reasonably justify holding one government official accountable for his or her public comments on a religion and not the other without appearing to be duplicitous and biased in it's opinion. Mr Trump had publicly described his travel ban before and after becoming President as being a "Muslim ban". Interestingly of course what seems to distinguish one Arab country from another Arab country from being placed on the his list is whether he has any established Trump business interests in the Arab country in question.

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I think both sides are affected by the word police. It is Arabs that are the perpetrators of what we call "Islamic terrorism". It is more appropriately called Arab terrorism. If it were truly Islamic in nature, Indonesians, Indians and Bangladeshis would commit a fair number.

As to the mechanic by which an obviously Arab terrorist phenomenon became associated with Islam, I can only guess. It's true that Arab terrorists cite Islam as the reason why they attack us, but deep down we all know that they hate our way of life first, then rationalize it. If it wasn't Islam it would be some other rationale, much like WWI would have started eventually anyway had the Archduke not been assassinated.

There's a very strong case for using ethnicity rather than religion as a threat measurement. Take 10,000 Indonesians and Bangladeshis, all Muslims. Then take 10,000 Arabs from the various middle eastern countries. Which group will statistically commit more terrorist acts? If "Muslim" holds water, and it's "Muslim" we are really talking about, we are forced to conclude that due to their religion, the two groups are equally likely to commit terrorists acts.

Moderate Right said:

This is exactly why Trump's travel ban was not aimed at Muslims, it was aimed at terrorist countries.

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Then that list should by all rights ought to include Saudi Arabia given it's enthusiastic devotion to Salafi-Wahhabism, a strain of Sunni Islam that has fueled a number of militant organizations across the Middle East. Fun fact: 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were citizens of Saudi Arabia. Take for example this excerpt from a publication put out by the conservative Cato Institute in 2001 entitled "Terrorist Sponsors: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China"

The Saudi government has been the principal financial backer of Afghanistan’ s odious Taliban movement since at least 1996. It has also channeled funds to Hamas and other groups that have committed terrorist acts in Israel and other portions of the Middle East.

Worst of all, the Saudi monarchy has funded dubious schools and “charities” throughout the Islamic world. Those organizations have been hotbeds of anti-Western, and especially, anti-American, indoctrination. The schools, for example, not only indoctrinate students in a virulent and extreme form of Islam, but also teach them to hate secular Western values.

They are also taught that the United States is the center of infidel power in the world and is the enemy of Islam. Graduates of those schools are frequently recruits for Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda terror network as well as other extremist groups.

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So why aren't we harder on Saudi Arabia. Because as Trump said; " because we need the oil." And anyway Trump had 8 registered companies in Saudi Arabia when he embarked on his campaign for Presideny.

Renae said:

You have no ideas what my views are, you throw out that foxnews quip in hopes of denigrating my positions by casting anything I would say as illegitimate before it is said.

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I wouldn't state "illegitimate." I would describe it as limited because of the ideological right-wing framework. But let's see...

Renae said:

But just to prove how woefully unprepared you are for any real discussion:

America is the greatest nation on earth, not because of our military power, substantial as it is. Not because of "freedom" or other words, but because America has stood for liberty, for hope and for letting the people decide their future without falling to the traps that historically democracies did. Our Representative Republic neatly balanced the will of the people against the baser instincts of human nature. The balancing act of three equal branches allowed for and checked power, growth and stability.

While there have been mistakes along the way, horrors, tragedies and failures there has been great hope and triumph as well.

America, by virtue of being away from the World Wars of the 20th century and economically blessed with natural resources helped usher in the greatest rise in standard of living humans have ever known.

It is our unique government, flawed as it has been, our history and our determination that makes America so great, and why so many people are desperate to get here. No where else can you rise so high as America from the lowest rungs to the highest echelons of human existence, just based on effort and will.

Politics doesn't make us great, it hurts us in the end. The fall of Rome is a history all Americans need to heed, for they too were so busy navel gazing they didn't see the fall coming. We're spoiled by our bounty.

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Not bad, but expectedly vague in its ideology and disclaimers. The world is full of representative republics, local resources, liberty, and stories of making it rich. And imperfection defines every nation.

Renae said:

Now, how about you back off your bs accusations and your garbage pronouncements, you don't know me. But I got you figured out. I've called you out repeatedly and you slithered away, that tells me all the fakery I suspect about you is spot on.

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I have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps you just tend to over post in a dead conversation.

MSgt said:

I wouldn't state "illegitimate." I would describe it as limited because of the ideological right-wing framework. But let's see...



Not bad, but expectedly vague in its ideology and disclaimers. The world is full of representative republics, local resources, liberty, and stories of making it rich. And imperfection defines every nation.



I have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps you just tend to over post in a dead conversation.

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Describing what makes a country great or not great tends to be more in ideas rather than "THIS THING".

Of course you didn't understand, I was talking military stuff, and you've proven lacking in that area.

Renae said:

Describing what makes a country great or not great tends to be more in ideas rather than "THIS THING".

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Not true. The U.S. is very distinct in its greatness and it is much more than abstract ideas. And despite historians generally not liking the word "unique," there is absolutely a uniqueness to the American experience in history. And the more educated of the world knows it. They just conveniently forget whenever they have an opportunity to seize an excuse to criticize.

Renae said:

Of course you didn't understand, I was talking military stuff, and you've proven lacking in that area.

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Actually, you were talking in terms of obnoxious nationalism and Republican ideology. Something to the affect that America is great because it is great and one only needs to pull up their boot straps! It seems odd that you would describe it as "military stuff" when you began by pointing out that your brief analysis of why America is the greatest is "not because of our military power..."

Also, it seems odd to declare a 20.6-year Marine Corps veteran as lacking in "military stuff." Considering my experiences, this seems as obtuse as labeling everything that doesn't agree with us as simply "the left." You are lashing. You don't have to. Just look at me. I'm sitting here in my fifth story breezy temporary apartment, looking over the strip, in merry old New India (I mean London), sipping on Scotch-laced tea.

MSgt said:

Not true. The U.S. is very distinct in its greatness and it is much more than abstract ideas. And despite historians generally not liking the word "unique," there is absolutely a uniqueness to the American experience in history. And the more educated of the world knows it. They just conveniently forget whenever they have an opportunity to seize an excuse to criticize.



Actually, you were talking in terms of obnoxious nationalism and Republican ideology. Something to the affect that America is great because it is great and one only needs to pull up their boot straps! It seems odd that you would describe it as "military stuff" when you began by pointing out that your brief analysis of why America is the greatest is "not because of our military power..."

Also, it seems odd to declare a 20.6-year Marine Corps veteran as lacking in "military stuff." Considering my experiences, this seems as obtuse as labeling everything that doesn't agree with us as simply "the left." You are lashing. You don't have to. Just look at me. I'm sitting here in my fifth story breezy temporary apartment, looking over the strip, in merry old New India (I mean London), sipping on Scotch-laced tea.

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Okay, it appears on this mater we'll agree to disagree.

How's this, you're quip about the end of the SK EX told me when I started talking changes to ROE you had no idea what I was talking about, I don't believe you, sorry.

Renae said:

Okay, it appears on this mater we'll agree to disagree.

How's this, you're quip about the end of the SK EX told me when I started talking changes to ROE you had no idea what I was talking about, I don't believe you, sorry.

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There was nothing about ROE in your America-the-Great analyses. And Trump's call to suspend military exercises in South Korea is another matter. What the hell are you talking about? And what don't you believe? I am in New India.

MSgt said:

There was nothing about ROE in your America-the-Great analyses. And Trump's call to suspend military exercises in South Korea is another matter. What the hell are you talking about? And what don't you believe? I am in New India.

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It was in another post, and you don't even remember it. Have a nice day, SV MSgt.

Renae said:

It was in another post, and you don't even remember it. Have a nice day, SV MSgt.

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What is "SV?" Is that a sort of Twitterage?

And why did you go off from another post from another time from another subject? It created confusion.