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Algerian woman denied French citizenship over handshake

JacksinPA

JacksinPA

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Algerian woman denied French citizenship over handshake - BBC News

A French appeals court has upheld a ruling denying an Algerian woman citizenship after she refused to shake the hand of a senior official. The woman, who has not been named, said her "religious beliefs" prevented her from shaking the hand of the male official in the citizenship ceremony.

A government ruling said it showed she was "not assimilated into the French community" and denied her citizenship.She appealed, but France's highest administrative court upheld the ruling.

The Algerian woman has been married to a French man since 2010.
==============================================
The French are different. I worked for them for 15 years. They have major problems due to the influx of North Africans from former French colonies. Parts of Paris are considered 'no-go' by the police.

Many Arab nationalities refuse to assimilate into the cultures of their host countries, even in the U.S. Language, religion, food, customs - all tend to draw them together.
 
What about people who don't have hands? Or who have OCD?

Would they be denied citizenship for not doing the handshake?
 
Amelia said:
What about people who don't have hands? Or who have OCD?

Would they be denied citizenship for not doing the handshake?
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Yes they would be denied. Haven't you heard? All the invalids and obsessive-compulsives were guillotined back in 1977 because of their inability to shake the hands of other French citizens, proving their un-Frenchness.
 
Naturalization is a privilege, not a right. If your life experience is mostly in the U.S. and you have little or no foreign travel experience you may not fully appreciate
the stark homogeneity in most countries, even in their urban societies compared to in the U.S. urban societies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laïcité

Laïcité ([la.i.si.te]), literally "secularity", is a French concept of secularism. It discourages religious involvement in government affairs, especially religious influence in the determination of state policies; it also forbids government involvement in religious affairs, and especially prohibits government influence in the determination of religion.[1][2]
Dictionaries ordinarily translate laïcité as "secularity" or "secularism" (the latter being the political system),[3] although it is sometimes rendered in English as laicity or laicism by its opponents.[citation needed] While the term was first used with this meaning in 1871 in the dispute over the removal of religious teachers and instruction from elementary schools, the word laïcisme dates to 1842.[4]
In its strict and official acceptance, it is the principle of separation of church (or religion) and state.[5] Etymologically, laïcité is a noun formed by adding the suffix -ité (English -ity, Latin -itās) to the Latin adjective lāicus, a loanword from the Greek λᾱϊκός (lāïkós "of the people", "layman"), the adjective from λᾱός (lāós "people").[6]
French secularism has a long history. For the last century, the French government policy has been based on the 1905 French law on the Separation of the Churches and the State.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenc..._symbols_in_schools#Stasi_commission's_report

The French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in French public (e.g., government-operated) primary and secondary schools. The law is an amendment to the French Code of Education that expands principles founded in existing French law, especially the constitutional requirement of laïcité: the separation of state and religious activities.....

...Most of the debate has centered on hijab – the Islamic dress code, which may include a headscarf for women, but more generally, on the wearing of religious or political symbols in schools. The wearing of headscarves in school started comparatively recently in mainland France (since the late 1980s), and has become the focus of the conflict. The increasing number of visible headscarves has been attributed by some to a rise in extremist activity in France, in particular in poor immigrant suburbs. However intellectuals such as Xavier Ternisien of Le Monde Diplomatique have maintained that the indubitable rise in religious observance is not linked with Islamic extremism, but with the frustration of children of immigrants no longer accepting to remain invisible as their parents often were. Further it is often associated with the idea of Muslim communities feeling settled and established in, and thus a part of, in French society such that they feel comfortable in expressing their identity...
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...m-boys-islam-immigration-europe-a7111601.html
Switzerland denies Muslim girls citizenship after they refuse to swim with boys at school
Case is the latest case of immigrants not deemed to be 'Swiss enough'
Jess Staufenberg
Thursday 30 June 2016 17:45 BST
.....
Two Muslim brothers who refused to shake hands with their female teacher on the grounds of religious restriction were soon the centre of widespread media coverage and public uproar.
The boys' father, an imam at the Basel mosque, immediately had his naturalisation request suspended by authorities, while any parent or guardian who refuses to shake a teacher's hand can now expect a $5,000 fine.
Yet the case is not always limited to instances of religious difference. The resident-led committees which lead recommendations for immigrants in their communities gaining citizenship have previously rejected applications before on the grounds of people not seeming "Swiss enough"...
....And an American who had lived in the country for 40 years had his application refused after being unable to name any Swiss friends or nearby villages.
Switzerland has been a top destination for immigrants coming to Europe and, along with Australia, it has the highest proportion of immigrants in the developed world.
But the country has also been accused of outright racism after 60 per cent of Swiss citizens voted in 2009 "against the construction of minarets" - the towers that deliver the call to prayer on either side of mosques - in the country....
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JacksinPA said:
Algerian woman denied French citizenship over handshake - BBC News

A French appeals court has upheld a ruling denying an Algerian woman citizenship after she refused to shake the hand of a senior official. The woman, who has not been named, said her "religious beliefs" prevented her from shaking the hand of the male official in the citizenship ceremony.

A government ruling said it showed she was "not assimilated into the French community" and denied her citizenship.She appealed, but France's highest administrative court upheld the ruling.

The Algerian woman has been married to a French man since 2010.
==============================================
The French are different. I worked for them for 15 years. They have major problems due to the influx of North Africans from former French colonies. Parts of Paris are considered 'no-go' by the police.

Many Arab nationalities refuse to assimilate into the cultures of their host countries, even in the U.S. Language, religion, food, customs - all tend to draw them together.
Click to expand...

The French...
 
Felis Leo said:
Yes they would be denied. Haven't you heard? All the invalids and obsessive-compulsives were guillotined back in 1977 because of their inability to shake the hands of other French citizens, proving their un-Frenchness.
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Okay, that's funny.
 
If she doesn't like French cultural norms, then why is she trying to become a citizen of France? Citizenship isn't owed to foreigners. Is she seeking French citizenship for some other reason? If it's for her own personal convenience, then she needs to understand that a country can't revolve around her.

She'd be better off living someplace which has cultural norms she feels more comfortable with - rather than seeking to be a Tail That Wags The Dog.
 
JacksinPA said:
Algerian woman denied French citizenship over handshake - BBC News

A French appeals court has upheld a ruling denying an Algerian woman citizenship after she refused to shake the hand of a senior official. The woman, who has not been named, said her "religious beliefs" prevented her from shaking the hand of the male official in the citizenship ceremony.

A government ruling said it showed she was "not assimilated into the French community" and denied her citizenship.She appealed, but France's highest administrative court upheld the ruling.

The Algerian woman has been married to a French man since 2010.
==============================================
The French are different. I worked for them for 15 years. They have major problems due to the influx of North Africans from former French colonies. Parts of Paris are considered 'no-go' by the police.

Many Arab nationalities refuse to assimilate into the cultures of their host countries, even in the U.S. Language, religion, food, customs - all tend to draw them together.
Click to expand...

I'm still forming an opinion on this. Does assimilation really require an Algerian woman to shake a French stranger's hand? I'm asking in this French context, of course.
 
post said:
Naturalization is a privilege, not a right. If your life experience is mostly in the U.S. and you have little or no foreign travel experience you may not fully appreciate
the stark homogeneity in most countries, even in their urban societies compared to in the U.S. urban societies.
Click to expand...

So remove the woman's religion from the equation. When should a person be required to touch another person for a governmental reason?
 
sanman said:
If she doesn't like French cultural norms, then why is she trying to become a citizen of France? Citizenship isn't owed to foreigners. Is she seeking French citizenship for some other reason? If it's for her own personal convenience, then she needs to understand that a country can't revolve around her.

She'd be better off living someplace which has cultural norms she feels more comfortable with - rather than seeking to be a Tail That Wags The Dog.
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What? Since when is hand shaking a required cultural norm? I know germophobes who refuse to shake hands. I myself refuse to shake hands when I have a cold. Physical contact between two people is not a rational requirement for participation in a society. For example, I'm a hugger, but I respect when someone doesn't want to hug. France is allowed to make whatever immigration rules it wants, but this is a very strange case.
 
MateoMtnClimber said:
What? Since when is hand shaking a required cultural norm? I know germophobes who refuse to shake hands. I myself refuse to shake hands when I have a cold. Physical contact between two people is not a rational requirement for participation in a society. For example, I'm a hugger, but I respect when someone doesn't want to hug. France is allowed to make whatever immigration rules it wants, but this is a very strange case.
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I can see this for medical/psychological reasons.............But, I believe she cited "religion" as the reason.

It does not fit in with the French notion of secularism I suppose...that being said, why would you want to gain citizenship in a nation that embraces secularism if you with to remain in a 13th century religion?
 
Polar Bum said:
I can see this for medical/psychological reasons.............But, I believe she cited "religion" as the reason.

It does not fit in with the French notion of secularism I suppose...that being said, why would you want to gain citizenship in a nation that embraces secularism if you with to remain in a 13th century religion?
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The whole story is bizarre if you ask me. France is weird for requiring a handshake. The woman is weird for suing to stay in a country that doesn't want her there.
 
MateoMtnClimber said:
The whole story is bizarre if you ask me. France is weird for requiring a handshake. The woman is weird for suing to stay in a country that doesn't want her there.
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If I was French, I would have a dog in the fight; but, their Nation, their choice.....as has been previously stated, citizenship is not a right, its a privilege.


Its a bit like saying "I believe in pre-marital sex, and I will sue the Catholic church to accept me in their community"
 
MateoMtnClimber said:
I'm still forming an opinion on this. Does assimilation really require an Algerian woman to shake a French stranger's hand? I'm asking in this French context, of course.
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It seems it was part of the ceremony, where the official congratulates all the applicants and individually shakes their hand, welcoming them to French citizenship. To then proclaim a religious intolerance to a fiercely secular society would put you outside the norms of French society.
 
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Polar Bum said:
If I was French, I would have a dog in the fight; but, their Nation, their choice.....as has been previously stated, citizenship is not a right, its a privilege.


Its a bit like saying "I believe in pre-marital sex, and I will sue the Catholic church to accept me in their community"
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Yep, I completely agree with that, but it doesn't exactly support their goals of liberalism and secularism to refuse to associate with people who are not as liberal and as secular as they are. I support France's sovereignty. I just think they look a little silly and a lot hypocritical by wanting to be a diverse and liberally advanced society while not tolerating people who are different than they are.
 
Manc Skipper said:
It seems it was part of the ceremony, where the official congratulates all the applicants and individually shakes their hand, welcoming them to French citizenship. To then proclaim a religious intolerance to a fiercely secular society would put you outside the norms of French society.
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Well, then the irony is pretty blazing there, isn't it? It's a secular society that requires a cultural custom to be upheld against the will of a human being. The woman got thrown out of the country. Oh, well. That's France's decision. The "tolerance" in this secular society, though, is definitely laughable.
 
MateoMtnClimber said:
What? Since when is hand shaking a required cultural norm? I know germophobes who refuse to shake hands. I myself refuse to shake hands when I have a cold. Physical contact between two people is not a rational requirement for participation in a society. For example, I'm a hugger, but I respect when someone doesn't want to hug. France is allowed to make whatever immigration rules it wants, but this is a very strange case.
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Showing a defiance to the norms of the society you are asking to be a citizen of is frowned upon.
 
MateoMtnClimber said:
Yep, I completely agree with that, but it doesn't exactly support their goals of liberalism and secularism to refuse to associate with people who are not as liberal and as secular as they are. I support France's sovereignty. I just think they look a little silly and a lot hypocritical by wanting to be a diverse and liberally advanced society while not tolerating people who are different than they are.
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Is it hypocritical to NOT accept people that are not willing to accept a secular and liberal society, when the individual clings to a divisive dogmatic theocratic belief?
 
Renae said:
Showing a defiance to the norms of the society you are asking to be a citizen of is frowned upon.
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Except that the handshake would never have meant anything if the woman hadn't been a Muslim, so these "norms of society" you mention are flimsy at best. I bet you I could apply for French citizenship, refuse a handshake because I just sneezed, and still get into the country. Again, it's completely France's decision. I support that, but I have to smile at their pretend advanced liberalism and tolerance for diversity.
 
MateoMtnClimber said:
Except that the handshake would never have meant anything if the woman hadn't been a Muslim, so these "norms of society" you mention are flimsy at best. I bet you I could apply for French citizenship, refuse a handshake because I just sneezed, and still get into the country. Again, it's completely France's decision. I support that, but I have to smile at their pretend advanced liberalism and tolerance for diversity.
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They see it as an inability to assimilate, and I agree with them. If you aren't able to move past what you were and embrace what you are claiming you want to be, gtfo.
 
Polar Bum said:
Is it hypocritical to NOT accept people that are not willing to accept a secular and liberal society, when the individual clings to a divisive dogmatic theocratic belief?
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That's a philosophical matter, isn't it? On one hand, it's gradually erosive to a liberal society to attempt to assimilate extremely conservative individuals who do not and will not subscribe to the ideals of liberalism. On the other hand (and more persuasive hand, in my opinion), that woman would have been brought into what is ostensibly one of the most liberal countries in the world. She might not ever change some of her customs. She might not ever shake a strange man's hand. But she would be surrounded by a liberal society and forced to accept its liberal customs. In that way, she would learn tolerance. Since tolerance is a cornerstone of liberalism, liberalism itself would be advanced by allowing her into the country. Instead, she was probably sent back to Algeria where she will likely never experience a drop of liberalism again. So it seems rather clear to me which option would have better served France's purported purposes, but they certainly know more about their situation than I do.
 
Renae said:
They see it as an inability to assimilate, and I agree with them. If you aren't able to move past what you were and embrace what you are claiming you want to be, gtfo.
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Um, sometimes. But you're claiming that a government can force a person to have physical contact with a stranger. So I call utter bull****.
 
MateoMtnClimber said:
So remove the woman's religion from the equation. When should a person be required to touch another person for a governmental reason?
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What does "a governmental reason" mean, aside from hinting strongly at your opinion of government? I went to the bother to present the example of an American residing 40 years in
Switzerland denied Swiss citizenship because he had not assimilated. Is it really up to any nation's citizenship granting body to learn and consider and grant exceptions due to the religious traditions and prohibitions of all who pursue a grant of citizenship, or is it incumbent upon the applicant to cooperate and assimilate to the degree required to obtain the granting of citizenship?

I presented a supported history of French law intent on avoiding interference of religion in government and vice-versa. What interest does France have in permitting religion of a foreign
applicant in the initial procedure or ceremony of being a citizen of France? Foreigner: "I am requesting a grant of citizenship to your country but I cannot comply fully with your process
due to religious grounds."
 
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